KC defense team.What now?

[impatientredhead]

There is no evidence that we know of to support that Caylee was killed by Casey. Nor is there evidence that we know of to support Caylee not dying alone by accident.

I disagree that there is no evidence that Casey killed, but we can agree to disagree about that.

If Caylee died alone by accident what was her mother doing while her toddler was alone? Sounds quite negligent to me. Death due to negligence can carry some pretty steep penalties depending on the circumstances. They even have a negligent homicide catagory........

 

[Wudge]

Guessing???? Oh, no, while you might not agree with her findings, you can not call what Dr. Garavaglia said 'guessing'. she said she made her determination of manner of death taking into consideration 3 different criteria and I am praphrasing here: 1) examination of the remains 2) examination of the crime scene 3) the background and circumstances surrounding this case that she was given by the different LE agencies involved. She did not guess, she made a determination based on these three areas and her years of experience as a Medical Examiner. Please dont' insult her education and experience by saying she guessed.

Induction, reduction and abduction do not produce proof-postive conclusions. What valid and true premises support proof-positive deduction?

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

There is no evidence that we know of to support that Caylee was killed by Casey. Nor is there evidence that we know of to support Caylee not dying alone by accident.

I am about 100 percent positive that Caylee didn't put herself into that bag and then duct tape it up and then whirl herself over an embankment and under some scrub in some swamp land. Puleeze, common sense has to prevail in some areas.

 

[Wudge]

I disagree that there is no evidence that Casey killed, but we can agree to disagree about that.

If Caylee died alone by accident what was her mother doing while her toddler was alone? Sounds quite negligent to me. Death due to negligence can carry some pretty steep penalties depending on the circumstances. They even have a negligent homicide catagory........

Death resulting from gross negligence, such as felony vehicular homicide, can result in extremely heavy sentences. Still, that has to be proven. Given the circumstances that we know of in this case, I don't see how that is possible.

 

[Wudge]

I am about 100 percent positive that Caylee didn't put herself into that bag and then duct tape it up and then whirl herself over an embankment and under some scrub in some swamp land. Puleeze, common sense has to prevail in some areas.

Did the M.E. eliminate accidental electrocution?

 

[okiedokietoo]

There is no evidence that we know of to support that Caylee was killed by Casey. Nor is there evidence that we know of to support Caylee not dying alone by accident.

We don't know all of the evidence. Although LE had enough to charge KC with Murder before the body was found.

 

[Macushla]

Induction, reduction and abduction do not produce proof-postive conclusions. What valid and true premises support proof-positive deduction?

I will be completely honest here, I have no idea what you mean by your first sentence, if I use the common definitions of those words, but I am assuming you are referring to the fact that Dr. G was making her determination even when there was no proof postive, as you put it, of the cause of death. I would answer by saying that we, the public, do not know what was found in/on/around the body or the crime scene other than rumors about duct tape. I would say that any time there is not a positive cause of death - such as gunshot wound, knife wound to the heart, etc. a medical examiner must use what he/she is given by LE, examination of the body, and any other evidence found at a crime scene to make his/her determination. That is what Dr. G did. do I think she is correct in saying manner of death was homicide - yes. You don't seem to think that. I have no problem with that, my problem was you used the term 'guessing' and I think that is unfair to Dr. Garavaglia or any other Medical Examiner who has to make a determination when the 'obvious' cause and manner of death is not apparent. Even if you qualify it by saying educated guess - that does not take into consideration the expertise of the ME, any good ME, in the area of determination of cause and manner of death.

 

[impatientredhead]

Death resulting from gross negligence, such as felony vehicular homicide, can result in extremely heavy sentences. Still, that has to be proven. Given the circumstances that we know of in this case, I don't see how that is possible.

You suggested Caylee died alone from accidental causes, not me.

 

[impatientredhead]

Did the M.E. eliminate accidental electrocution?

perhaps this will help

undetermined
adjective1. not yet having been ascertained or determined; "of undetermined species" [ant: determined] 2. not precisely determined or established; not fixed or known in advance; "of indeterminate age"; "a zillion is a large indeterminate number"; "an indeterminate point of law"; "the influence of environment is indeterminate"; "an indeterminate future" [syn: indeterminate] [ant: determinate] 3. not brought to a conclusion; subject to further thought; "an open question"; "our position on this bill is still undecided"; "our lawsuit is still undetermined" [syn: open]

 

[Wudge]

You suggested Caylee died alone from accidental causes, not me.

Correct. And accident is apart from homicide.

 

[Wudge]

perhaps this will help

undetermined
adjective1. not yet having been ascertained or determined; "of undetermined species" [ant: determined] 2. not precisely determined or established; not fixed or known in advance; "of indeterminate age"; "a zillion is a large indeterminate number"; "an indeterminate point of law"; "the influence of environment is indeterminate"; "an indeterminate future" [syn: indeterminate] [ant: determinate] 3. not brought to a conclusion; subject to further thought; "an open question"; "our position on this bill is still undecided"; "our lawsuit is still undetermined" [syn: open]

Now try to locate undetermined homicide versus undetermined accident or undetermined misfortune.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

Even if you qualify it by saying educated guess - that does not take into consideration the expertise of the ME, any good ME, in the area of determination of cause and manner of death.

You are making my point. I started this by saying that the M.E, will almost assuredly undergo a withering cross-examination if the case goes to trial. And it will center on whether homicide is a medical determination (her expertise) or a guess that lies outside the expertise.

 

[Valrico Analyzer]

There is no evidence that we know of to support that Caylee was killed by Casey. Nor is there evidence that we know of to support Caylee not dying alone by accident.

....YET....

No doubt, the LE/SAO has the burden to tie the evidence together that we assume they have. But this case is far from trial.

If I were the defense, I would keep that welcome home cake in the freezer for a while.

IMO, When the results are released as to the manner of death, and it matches any of the evidence that exists by computer, forensics, items found at dump site that match items from home and KC, this position will change.

The LE is not concerned, therefore, neither am I, as I feel the evidence will overwhelmingly show that KC did this.

consider:
They haven't released what they found from the blue light scan of the scene
They havent released what they found from the scene that connects directly to the car or home.
They haven't released the dna or fingerprints from the scene (if any)
They haven't named an accompliance; an eyewitness or co-conspirator which they very well may have;
especially if any items found with Caylee were proven to be purchased AFTER Caylee was kidnapped...(JCP receipts for crosses, etc?)
They haven't released the statements from people who MAy have heard a confession from her.

Relax folks. Lots of info not released yet. They're NOT going to trial based on ONLY what they have now. Let the facts unfold. Too early to make a call either way

Defense supporters don't want to realize, is even IF they went with what they had right now to trial, jurors are not emotionless computers with no heart. Human nature will dictate once they hear in agonizing heart wretching detail the manner she was killed, the cold calculating callous manner in which she conducted herself; the miserable excuse of a nanny no one can prove existed or produce she will be found guilty.

The facts are, like it or not, no matter what reasonable doubt they show, 12 jurors are NEVER going to let a MOTHER just walk when HER daughter was killed. She will held responsible. Maybe murder 2, aggravated child abuse, manslaughter, something.

The reason this is true, IMO, is because unlike OJ, there's a child victim that even if the mother cannot be proven to have done it, she cant be proven she didnt do it either.

The jurors will no doubt punish her for contributing somehow, someway to it.

if there has ever been a case where a MOTHER (not father) has ever walked scott free AFTER being CHARGED and TRIED from the alleged murder of her
daughter, (without employing the insanity defense such as Andrea Yates whose prior treatment and medical history showed it existed before the murder, unlike KC) I'd like to know. Especially in light of this "Mothers" actions before, DURING and AFTER the fact.

So just sit back and watch the chess game, folks. This case won't end at the
GUILTY plea.

Where the Constitution demands protection, the human nature of human beings empowered by something more powerful than the constitution, that being the 5th commandment, "Thou shall not Kill" will supercede and demand justice, and these jurors will carry out those justices.

 

[okiedokietoo]

:clap::clap::clap:

....YET....

No doubt, the LE/SAO has the burden to tie the evidence together that we assume they have. But this case is far from trial.

If I were the defense, I would keep that welcome home cake in the freezer for a while.

IMO, When the results are released as to the manner of death, and it matches any of the evidence that exists by computer, forensics, items found at dump site that match items from home and KC, this position will change.

The LE is not concerned, therefore, neither am I, as I feel the evidence will overwhelmingly show that KC did this.

consider:
They haven't released what they found from the blue light scan of the scene
They havent released what they found from the scene that connects directly to the car or home.
They haven't released the dna or fingerprints from the scene (if any)
They haven't named an accompliance; an eyewitness or co-conspirator which they very well may have;
especially if any items found with Caylee were proven to be purchased AFTER Caylee was kidnapped...(JCP receipts for crosses, etc?)
They haven't released the statements from people who MAy have heard a confession from her.

Relax folks. Lots of info not released yet. They're NOT going to trial based on ONLY what they have now. Let the facts unfold. Too early to make a call either way

Defense supporters don't want to realize, is even IF they went with what they had right now to trial, jurors are not emotionless computers with no heart. Human nature will dictate once they hear in agonizing heart wretching detail the manner she was killed, the cold calculating callous manner in which she conducted herself; the miserable excuse of a nanny no one can prove existed or produce she will be found guilty.

The facts are, like it or not, no matter what reasonable doubt they show, 12 jurors are NEVER going to let a MOTHER just walk when HER daughter was killed. She will held responsible. Maybe murder 2, aggravated child abuse, manslaughter, something.

The reason this is true, IMO, is because unlike OJ, there's a child victim that even if the mother cannot be proven to have done it, she cant be proven she didnt do it either.

The jurors will no doubt punish her for contributing somehow, someway to it.

if there has ever been a case where a MOTHER (not father) has ever walked scott free AFTER being CHARGED and TRIED from the alleged murder of her
daughter, (without employing the insanity defense such as Andrea Yates whose prior treatment and medical history showed it existed before the murder, unlike KC) I'd like to know. Especially in light of this "Mothers" actions before, DURING and AFTER the fact.

So just sit back and watch the chess game, folks. This case won't end at the
GUILTY plea.

Where the Constitution demands protection, the human nature of human beings empowered by something more powerful than the constitution, that being the 5th commandment, "Thou shall not Kill" will supercede and demand justice, and these jurors will carry out those justices.

 

[MiraclesHappen]

Did the M.E. eliminate accidental electrocution?

No she didn't.

But the ME also hasn't ruled out trauma.....blunt trauma or any trauma except after -death- trauma..

Dr G. stated that there was no post-mortem trauma to the skeleton.

That is all she said about trauma.

She did not address whether there is or isn't evidence of pre-death trauma.

We really need the evidence, to rule things out.

jmho

 

[Wudge]

No she didn't.

SNIP

We really need the evidence, to rule things out.

jmho

(now you are playing in my church)

Such as death by accident or misfortune.

 

[annwoo2]

Yup...

I'm not in the mood this evening to give ideas to defense. WHEN the prosecution PROVES that it is KC's prints on the duct tape, poo hits fan.

That's what I'm hoping for. Please let them find Casey's fingerprints all over that duct tape and put this mess to rest. If her finger prints are embedded in the sticky side of the wrap around, I don't see how it could be defended.

 

[Valrico Analyzer]

No she didn't.

But the ME also hasn't ruled out trauma.....blunt trauma or any trauma except after -death- trauma..

Dr G. stated that there was no post-mortem trauma to the skeleton.

That is all she said about trauma.

She did not address whether there is or isn't evidence of pre-death trauma.

We really need the evidence, to rule things out.

jmho

Am I correct that the local ME will be only part of the LE team to discuss this as the FBI was there, they have certain evidence that they will test and testify on...the ME is only a small part of this whole picture...

IMO thats why she didnt go overboard commiting to a certain type of death because her objective today was to announce the identification...not discuss case specifics and LE theorys until ALL results are final and given to the defense in discovery.

That shouldn't be interpreted as "dunno" it should be intrepretated as " we have been careful and close lipped about everything so far & will continue to tighten the noose around her story as we prove more theories based on evidence analysis."

 

[JulieR]

Dateline just showed a clip of Conway saying: If you murdered your child are you going to put her body a few houses away? OOOOboy here we go again spin cycle.

 

[MiraclesHappen]

Am I correct that the local ME will be only part of the LE team to discuss this as the FBI was there, they have certain evidence that they will test and testify on...the ME is only a small part of this whole picture...

IMO thats why she didnt go overboard commiting to a certain type of death because her objective today was to announce the identification...not discuss case specifics and LE theorys until ALL results are final and given to the defense in discovery.

That shouldn't be interpreted as "dunno" it should be intrepretated as " we have been careful and close lipped about everything so far & will continue to tighten the noose around her story as we prove more theories based on evidence analysis."

Yes, they are still sitting on a ton of complicated evidence. They aren't even finished with the investigation.

They don't have everything yet , still testing...