KC's Pregnancy/Denial (Merged Threads)

[tlcya]

I think had the "what pregnancy?" ruse been allowed to continue, a full-term, infant Caylee would have been one of those Baby Girl Does discovered dead in a dumpster. Once the acknowledgment of the pregnancy was forced, I think ICA was browbeaten by CA in to keeping the child so that "Perfect Mother" could be a martyr to her daughter's irresponsibility and put on the hat of "perfect Grandmother". Once Caylee was alive and in the household, I think ICA resented the heck out of the child being used as daily evidence of ICA's failure to grow up, to mother properly, etc. I also believe Caylee was viewed as extremely useful by ICA as a tool, a lever, to wedge between GA and CA, to hold hostage over CA and GA. She was a fabulous tool for manipulating those two into continuing to enable her to do as she pleased without consequence. She was a fabulous tool for causing discord in the family home.

I think the only problem is, this tool needed to eat, sleep, be supervised, could talk and was really inconvenient when not being really convenient IYKWIM. I honestly don't think ICA ever viewed Caylee as a beautiful, real, person. Of course, IMO I do not think ICA is capable of viewing anyone as being as "real" or valid as she views her own self.

I don't think ICA had a grand plan that she set in motion to kill Caylee - I think she just did what she wanted to do and the consequences be damned. Evertyhing after was just a panicked pathological liar, scrambling to dig herself out of the mess she'd created. Even after, I don't think she realized that what she did was evil. I don't think she gets it to this day frankly. And that may be what I find most disturbing and frightening about this woman.

So my very long answer to the question posed in the opening post is, while I have no doubt that Caylee was never supposed to live past birth in ICA's thought process, I do not believe Caylee's death was the final, albeit several years late, fruition of that plan.

All of the above is my own conjecture and opinion.

 

[The World According]

One inch closer and that tumor would have kicked CA!

Everything was wrong with this situation... The dress ICA was wearing only called attention to her 7 months of pregnancy - that she could sit there, surrounded by family and pretend there was a tumor under her dress screams of problems to come - that CA could pretend her daughter was a virgin while very obvious to everyone around them that ICA was very pregnant, screams that they were living in deep denial long before Caylee went missing.

Studying them would be fascinating, too bad it will never happen.

If mom and pop can be participants in this sherade, it makes the walk down the hallway at Universal and all of the other silly, ridiculous, easily disprovable lies seem commonplace in her family. She was not born this way, she was RAISED this way, imo.
Only God knows what would go through one's mind using the Anthonyonics as a moral compass.

She not only had a very odd jealousy that mom and pop loved Caylee more than her, but also that Jesse did. She seemed to see it as her or me (Caylee or Casey), that it could only be one or the other.

 

[Aedrys]

ICA and CA were doing a "dance" for years-with ICA leading and CA following (cleaning up her messes and covering for her misteps (mistruths). When CA decided to take the lead (Control) away from ICA-the dance ended. To ICA that meant Caylee ended-there was no more need for Caylee-she no longer served a purpose in ICA's life.IMO:furious:
However, what has always fascinated me was how ICA dressed for Uncle Ricks wedding. I mean-if you want to disguise a pregnancy you don't wear a belly bearing dress with a tight midriff length sweater. I've often wondered who decided on that outfit-ICA or CA?:waitasec:
Was CA using Rick and his wedding to force the truth out of ICA the same way CA was using the 911 call to force the truth out of ICA? Was CA trying to force Rick and the rest of the family to believe ICA wasn't pregnant-but still a virginal girl incapable of being pregnant just like she is trying to force us to believe ICA is actually a victim and really MOTY?:snooty:
IMO-If Caylee had lived and ICA had found another man to go off with and bear children with-Caylee would have been treated very different from those children. Caylee would have always represented ICA's "mistake"!:twocents:

I believe that is what it is exactly. I think CA wanted to force Casey's hand by outing her in a not so subtle way to the family. There's no way she didn't tell Casey what to wear that day or could possibly think that was a big tumor. The tumor is just another big cover lie. She knew Casey was pregnant and perhaps thought she could shame her in to keeping the child. Also, I think the virgin stuff was to make it look like Cindy was just as surprised as everyone else, but her pride and need for a perfect family got in the way and made it even more unbelievable.

I really do think there had been discussions or fights about what to do about the pregnancy, and Casey adamantly didn't want the baby, so CA thought outing Casey to the family would make Casey want to keep the baby. When that didn't work, Cindy went to her enabler role and told Casey the only words that would get Casey to keep the baby - "I'll take care of the baby, and you won't have to do anything."

Unfortunately, that worked, and Casey didn't grow to love or cherish the child while Cindy still kept taking care of Caylee. Cindy tried to force Casey to be a perfect mom like Cindy saw herself, and Caylee ended up dead. Cindy's need for the perfect family is what lead to Caylee's death, IMO. Casey showed her in the worst way how nonperfect their family is.

 

[Reagan]

By the time anyone in the immediate family decided to recognize the fact that KC was pregnant, abortion wasn't an option. I too think Caylee would have been a prom dumpster baby had the family continued to ignore her very obvious belly.

Am I the only one that thinks the sonogram photo wasn't even really Caylee?

Also, I could have sworn that I heard that people (i.e cousins etc..) kept asking KC at the wedding who the father was and she would just smile and snicker.

Does anyone else think it's strange that each family member brought up in their LE interviews that KC had a grudge against CA because she was the first to hold Caylee? I don't think it was thrown in CA's face "a couple times" as GA says. I think it was a source of contention all the time.

 

[OneLostGrl]

One inch closer and that tumor would have kicked CA!

Everything was wrong with this situation... The dress ICA was wearing only called attention to her 7 months of pregnancy - that she could sit there, surrounded by family and pretend there was a tumor under her dress screams of problems to come - that CA could pretend her daughter was a virgin while very obvious to everyone around them that ICA was very pregnant, screams that they were living in deep denial long before Caylee went missing.

Studying them would be fascinating, too bad it will never happen.

Amen!

 

[OneLostGrl]

Respectfully Quoted AZlawyer :cool2:
BBM

Thank you AZ! You filled in the perfect pieces for me here. After reading what you have wrote, esp. the BBM: Cindy's MySpace entry comes to mind.

A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began.

And, Lee says Cindy was the first to hold Caylee in the hospital and that was a source of argument between the two, ahem, women. I always took that like Casey was angry at Cindy for acting like Caylee's mom(and she was per Annie Dowling and George who defended the idea he nor Cindy had ever had Caylee call them anything like that, she called them JoJo and CeCe)but per the deal between Cindy and Casey maybe Cindy felt entitled(imagine that!?)and Casey only cared because it gave her ammunition.

I have not had a child, nor been in attendance for a birth so TIA: wouldn't the professional(nurse, doctor)understand who the mother is and give the baby accordingly? How is it that Cindy would come to be the first one to hold Caylee?

Obviously your post got me ta thinkin'...thanks!

...js...

When it was time to hold my son after he was born I was vomitting and dealing with the second part (giving birth to the placenta Yuck!) so they just automatically handed him to his father. There are lots of things that could be going on after delivery at the time that makes the mother unable to hold the child *first*... labor and delivery isn't always easy. I just don't understand why they all made such a big deal about it. So what she held the baby first, you carried her for 9 months and gave her life.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I believe that is what it is exactly. I think CA wanted to force Casey's hand by outing her in a not so subtle way to the family. There's no way she didn't tell Casey what to wear that day or could possibly think that was a big tumor. The tumor is just another big cover lie. She knew Casey was pregnant and perhaps thought she could shame her in to keeping the child. Also, I think the virgin stuff was to make it look like Cindy was just as surprised as everyone else, but her pride and need for a perfect family got in the way and made it even more unbelievable.

I really do think there had been discussions or fights about what to do about the pregnancy, and Casey adamantly didn't want the baby, so CA thought outing Casey to the family would make Casey want to keep the baby. When that didn't work, Cindy went to her enabler role and told Casey the only words that would get Casey to keep the baby - "I'll take care of the baby, and you won't have to do anything."

Unfortunately, that worked, and Casey didn't grow to love or cherish the child while Cindy still kept taking care of Caylee. Cindy tried to force Casey to be a perfect mom like Cindy saw herself, and Caylee ended up dead. Cindy's need for the perfect family is what lead to Caylee's death, IMO. Casey showed her in the worst way how nonperfect their family is.

I hadn't even thought of that. I coud see Cindy doing that, outing her like that. wow.. I bet you are right!!

 

[beach]

When it was time to hold my son after he was born I was vomitting and dealing with the second part (giving birth to the placenta Yuck!) so they just automatically handed him to his father. There are lots of things that could be going on after delivery at the time that makes the mother unable to hold the child *first*... labor and delivery isn't always easy. I just don't understand why they all made such a big deal about it. So what she held the baby first, you carried her for 9 months and gave her life.

With all respect, I think handing the baby to the father is very different than the grandmother. When my daughter had her baby the father was not present and I was with her in the birthing room. She had to have an emergency c-section and wasn't back to her room for about an 1 1/2 hours. It was torture to have to look at that precious newborn in the nursery and I stood at the nursery window staring the whole time. One of the nurses offered to let me hold her. I refused w/o hesitation. There is no way on earth I would have held that baby before my daughter had a chance first. I respect my daughter as a mother and I would never have inserted myself in such a fashion w/o her permission.

Food for thought: Think about if this were Cindy. I envision Cindy pitching a holy fit if her mother-in-law had held either Lee or Casey before she had the chance. whoowee

That said, I think Casey used this incident as a oke: oke: oke: every chance she got. I think it was more of a weapon than anything.

 

[OneLostGrl]

With all respect, I think handing the baby to the father is very different than the grandmother. When my daughter had her baby the father was not present and I was with her in the birthing room. She had to have an emergency c-section and wasn't back to her room for about an 1 1/2 hours. It was torture to have to look at that precious newborn in the nursery and I stood at the nursery window staring the whole time. One of the nurses offered to let me hold her. I refused w/o hesitation. There is no way on earth I would have held that baby before my daughter had a chance first. I respect my daughter as a mother and I would never have inserted myself in such a fashion w/o her permission.

Food for thought: Think about if this were Cindy. I envision Cindy pitching a holy fit if her mother-in-law had held either Lee or Casey before she had the chance. whoowee

That said, I think Casey used this incident as a oke: oke: oke: every chance she got. I think it was more of a weapon than anything.

ohhh I totally agree it's different... very! I was just giving an example of why a child may have to be given to someone other than the mother.

You sound like a very good mom- holdiing out like that!

 

[The World According]

I think her plan was to conceal the pregnancy, then do one of the following: (1) suffocate and dispose of the baby, (2) abandon the baby and let her die (or live--just leave it up to God and absolve herself of the responsibility), or (3) leave the baby at a "Safe Haven" spot like a hospital. All these options would leave Casey, as far as the rest of the world could tell, morally unblemished.

By finally taking her to a Dr., Cindy trapped Casey into a situation where the options became: (1) adoption--which would make her look bad, (2) abortion--which would make her look bad, or (3) raising the baby--which would reveal that she was not a virgin but at least would make people give her positive attention and would give her the opportunity of developing a new "perfect young mother" persona. Option 3 was the best--and perhaps the only one Cindy would allow in any event.

I would be willing to bet that Cindy told Casey that she wouldn't have to worry about a thing and would be able to continue on with her life as normal if she kept the baby. (Cindy no doubt assumed that, as Casey got older, she would naturally mature and take more responsibility for the baby, but this did not happen.) The combination of two factors, IMO, pushed Casey to the breaking point. First, Cindy started insisting that Casey come home and be a mother--which broke Cindy's promise that keeping the baby would not affect Casey's life. Second, Caylee started talking and, like most 2-year-olds, showed a distressing tendency to give a truthful recitation of her day's activities.

So IMO Casey rationalized getting rid of Caylee as follows: she had kept the baby only because of Cindy's promises that everything would be easy and fine; Cindy's promises turned out to be false; therefore Casey was no longer bound by her end of the deal. Casey went back to her options and her original goal of looking perfect in the eyes of the world. She needed Caylee to be dead, because a "good mother" would not allow her child to be raised by someone else. But she also needed Caylee's death to be entirely not Casey's fault. A kidnap-murder was the perfect ending to the story, in Casey's mind.

Your post reminded me of Jesse detailing how Casey was at first a doting mother, but he added her absolute reason for existence and sense of self worth revolved around that, she felt she was nothing separate and apart from that.
Your last paragraph lines up precisely with her favorite One Tree Hill Episode. She wanted to be seen as the victim, indeed she even told her folks that is how she needed to be and should be seen "Just as much as Caylee is", in one of the jail visits. It was sickening to hear. I didn't realize until just now hearing on the Nancy Grace show that the search for this One Tree Hill episode was dead smack in the middle of the searches for chloroform abd neak breaking. Is that correct? I never believe a reporter's account until I confirm it myself.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ii2dVTJI6M[/ame]
Here Annie details Casey once wanting to commit herself to an institution; because, she needed help ( mentally ).

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql2hffy0GkI[/ame] "There are some serious issued of manic behavior in her", one of the lawyers opined.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpV1tIyD7rE[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3xJi0Lu_fc[/ame]

 

[LambChop]

Maybe at the time of the wedding KC was telling her mother she would not be keeping the baby and that was the reason for the cover-up. Given the fact that everyone seemed to notice KC was pregnant maybe CA said, "well, now you have to keep the baby because everyone knows you're pregnant and don't worry it will be fine. We'll work it out, just keep the baby." No way CA did not know KC was pregnant. No way. jmo

 

[Oakley]

I think her plan was to conceal the pregnancy, then do one of the following: (1) suffocate and dispose of the baby, (2) abandon the baby and let her die (or live--just leave it up to God and absolve herself of the responsibility), or (3) leave the baby at a "Safe Haven" spot like a hospital. All these options would leave Casey, as far as the rest of the world could tell, morally unblemished.

By finally taking her to a Dr., Cindy trapped Casey into a situation where the options became: (1) adoption--which would make her look bad, (2) abortion--which would make her look bad, or (3) raising the baby--which would reveal that she was not a virgin but at least would make people give her positive attention and would give her the opportunity of developing a new "perfect young mother" persona. Option 3 was the best--and perhaps the only one Cindy would allow in any event.

I would be willing to bet that Cindy told Casey that she wouldn't have to worry about a thing and would be able to continue on with her life as normal if she kept the baby. (Cindy no doubt assumed that, as Casey got older, she would naturally mature and take more responsibility for the baby, but this did not happen.) The combination of two factors, IMO, pushed Casey to the breaking point. First, Cindy started insisting that Casey come home and be a mother--which broke Cindy's promise that keeping the baby would not affect Casey's life. Second, Caylee started talking and, like most 2-year-olds, showed a distressing tendency to give a truthful recitation of her day's activities.

So IMO Casey rationalized getting rid of Caylee as follows: she had kept the baby only because of Cindy's promises that everything would be easy and fine; Cindy's promises turned out to be false; therefore Casey was no longer bound by her end of the deal. Casey went back to her options and her original goal of looking perfect in the eyes of the world. She needed Caylee to be dead, because a "good mother" would not allow her child to be raised by someone else. But she also needed Caylee's death to be entirely not Casey's fault. A kidnap-murder was the perfect ending to the story, in Casey's mind.

BBM As I was reading this insightful post, a thought occurred to me. To carry this scenario a step further, I could easily see Casey being further enraged by Cindy's taking her to task for the 'mis-use' of Cindy's checking account, credit cards, Grandma Plesea's checking account, and Grandpa Plesea's nursing home care account. That is when Casey then took advantage of Amy's checking account and had her infamous Target & ATT spending spree's. Although Casey lied to her friends about her (non) career as an event planner, and her (non) college studies at Valencia, she had no trouble taking what she wanted from others (sociopathic and narcissistic sense of entitlement.) :cow:

 

[Sammiejam]

I agree with the above posters re forcing ICA's hand.

I think this was CA's attempt to save Caylee's life. She knew DAMN WELL what ICA had in store for her "tumor" and even though she is completely BSC (bat s... crazy) she didn't want a little baby, her grandchild, to be left in a filthy dumpster to die.

I never really thought about the "this should of happened a long time ago" comment. I thought it meant that she get busted for being a shocking mother. But yes, it makes perfect sense that ICA was actually referring to the murder. *deep sigh*

 

[The World According]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV-0NPW5GOA[/ame]
" Certainly evil lurks in the darkest hearts. Casey has demonstrated she has a very dark heart. She is incapable of telling the truth, and incapable of having lasting relationships with people. Nothing would surprise me about this woman. It is sad and unfortunate that adoption was stopped in the beginning or we wouldn't be sitting here talking about this case right now". Mark Klass said.
Was her first plan to kill her mother, there was a lot of turmoil going on in that house a caller asked.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtakSA9wQrA[/ame]
She never wanted the baby, she wanted to put the baby up for adoption Kio Marie Cruz said. Things were in the works for the adoption, but when Cindy found out, she went balistic. How ironic that the one who would have become the child's mom, is the one who wound up telling the police the spot Casey would have put the baby. How sad for Kio. I cannot imagine the number of people whose lives have been hurt by this selfish reckless mean girl!

 

[Just Jayla]

The Anthonys live in a constant state of denial. I don't think it was a sudden onset condition brought on by the trauma of losing Caylee.

That said, are we sure that they were complicit in the coverup of the pregnancy? I'm not. I think if Casey told them the sky was fuschia, they'd smile and agree because it would be easier than the alternative. George and Cindy have a sort of denial folie a deux that is really quite amazing, I'd imagine, from a psychology perspective. They should be trapped and studied.

From a common sense perspective, however, I don't think KC could have picked a more revealing outfit for that wedding. It actually hollers "HI! I'M PREGNANT!" The pastel blue, which nicely accentuates the bump. The little white sweater tied meekly in front. It's like she pulled it off a mannequin at Motherhood. I can't imagine that CA wouldn't have said "Do you want to draw attention to your tumor? Put on some spanx, for cryin' out loud."

I think this was intended to make the relatives talk. I think this was a passive move by KC (or the family in concert) to let everyone know so CA wouldn't have to send out some kind of humiliating mass email. I still don't believe CA had come to terms with the pregnancy, however, and was likely still praying that KC had benign fibroids. Maybe KC told her "Hey, mom. I went to the GYN today and they said I had a 3.5 pound fibroid. They said the earliest OR slot was opening in 2.5 months."

Seriously, though. I had the odd fortune of meeting the Anthonys once. I thought GA was a sweet guy who seemed tired. CA was very pleasant to me, but seemed out of it. She spent our conversation pulling sandspurs off my jacket. I sympathize with the crazy nightmare their life has become, but it's hard to talk to them and not come away with the feeling that there is and was something very, very wrong going on in their lives. I know it's hard for a stranger to know, but they just looked beat down by life in a way that goes beyond the Caylee horror. I'm sure there was no small amount of parenting malpeactice going on, but I also think that KC has damaged them over the years.

BBM-(And in CA's head, while she plucked away)...Appearance is everything, sweetie.

 

[txsvicki]

I'm not so sure that it's ever really been established that Casey was completely hiding her pregnancy from every single person just because the brother tried to start a fight with Cindy at his own wedding over the issue. I think it's weird that he tried to get so involved when he should have been focusing on his new wife and wedding. Maybe Cindy knew, but just didn't want to discuss it with him in particular, at a wedding, or in front of her elderly parents & new inlaws. Also, Jesse and his parents knew about the pregnancy because they had already confronted Jesse about it and then found out that Casey was trying to pin it on him. IMO, that is exactly why it was kept quiet, if it really was. Casey was biding her time telling her Mom that she had to keep it quiet a while for some reason, was trying to frame Jesse, and/or she was trying to hide it from George as long as possible because he might blow up and run off. Which is exactly what he did do.

 

[RR0004]

I'm not so sure that it's ever really been established that Casey was completely hiding her pregnancy from every single person just because the brother tried to start a fight with Cindy at his own wedding over the issue. I think it's weird that he tried to get so involved when he should have been focusing on his new wife and wedding. Maybe Cindy knew, but just didn't want to discuss it with him in particular, at a wedding, or in front of her elderly parents & new inlaws. Also, Jesse and his parents knew about the pregnancy because they had already confronted Jesse about it and then found out that Casey was trying to pin it on him. IMO, that is exactly why it was kept quiet, if it really was. Casey was biding her time telling her Mom that she had to keep it quiet a while for some reason, was trying to frame Jesse, and/or she was trying to hide it from George as long as possible because he might blow up and run off. Which is exactly what he did do.

But didn't George admit...and I know it's somewhere here...that he actually knew earlier on...or was that Lee...or both?
PS- Have we ever heard any friends' take on the whole pregnancy issue...like when they found out? What was confided to them?

 

[tlcya]

The Anthonys live in a constant state of denial. I don't think it was a sudden onset condition brought on by the trauma of losing Caylee.

That said, are we sure that they were complicit in the coverup of the pregnancy? I'm not. I think if Casey told them the sky was fuschia, they'd smile and agree because it would be easier than the alternative. George and Cindy have a sort of denial folie a deux that is really quite amazing, I'd imagine, from a psychology perspective. They should be trapped and studied.

From a common sense perspective, however, I don't think KC could have picked a more revealing outfit for that wedding. It actually hollers "HI! I'M PREGNANT!" The pastel blue, which nicely accentuates the bump. The little white sweater tied meekly in front. It's like she pulled it off a mannequin at Motherhood. I can't imagine that CA wouldn't have said "Do you want to draw attention to your tumor? Put on some spanx, for cryin' out loud."

I think this was intended to make the relatives talk. I think this was a passive move by KC (or the family in concert) to let everyone know so CA wouldn't have to send out some kind of humiliating mass email. I still don't believe CA had come to terms with the pregnancy, however, and was likely still praying that KC had benign fibroids. Maybe KC told her "Hey, mom. I went to the GYN today and they said I had a 3.5 pound fibroid. They said the earliest OR slot was opening in 2.5 months."

Seriously, though. I had the odd fortune of meeting the Anthonys once. I thought GA was a sweet guy who seemed tired. CA was very pleasant to me, but seemed out of it. She spent our conversation pulling sandspurs off my jacket. I sympathize with the crazy nightmare their life has become, but it's hard to talk to them and not come away with the feeling that there is and was something very, very wrong going on in their lives. I know it's hard for a stranger to know, but they just looked beat down by life in a way that goes beyond the Caylee horror. I'm sure there was no small amount of parenting malpeactice going on, but I also think that KC has damaged them over the years.

TY for your own personal insight into the Anthony's

 

[tlcya]

I cannot imagine having raised and having to accept that I raised ICA. I cannot imagine what it must be like to replay every incident and moment of raising my child to find out she is ICA. Whatever their shortcomings. Whatever I think of them as people, based on how they have comported themselves thus far, I can imagine the sort of hades I might be living and putting myself trhough, daily. One selfish, Caylee oriented side of me hopes it is. One mother who has not been perfect but has tried very hard, hopes their lives are not ended with Caylee's. I do believ they loved her, no matter their screwed up dynamic with ICA. However screwy that love may or may not have been. As a grandparent I can begin to feel them - to a degree. But CA's steadfast resolve to not address Caylee's death and her daughter, ICA's complete lies, exposed, time and again. It sort of freaks me out?!

Maybe, having realized ICA was a warsh, as far as raising the perfect daughter in CA's opinion, they completely sold themselves on the idea that little Caylee was what was supposed to be ICA's big accomplishment. Maybe that was how they digested the pregnancy. Imagine having to swallow the ending to this sad sad tale?

MOO - every single word.

 

[The World According]

But didn't George admit...and I know it's somewhere here...that he actually knew earlier on...or was that Lee...or both?
PS- Have we ever heard any friends' take on the whole pregnancy issue...like when they found out? What was confided to them?

IIRC Lee said he knew far earlier than it was announced to the extended family, he was insulted by the denials and he just thought you know what she has two parents let them handle her. He said she picked him up from the airport one time and it was beyond obvious. I will try to find that for you.

http://www.google.com/search?q=lee+...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQqwQwAA