KC's Pregnancy/Denial (Merged Threads)

[gardenhart]

While I agree 100% w JBean that we are all ultimately responsible for our own choices, reportedly CA persisted against even KC's misgivings and better judgment, in pressuring her to not adopt out Caylee. On one level I can understand this--as I was nearly faced myself w this heartwrenching dilemma involving my own very young single, struggling daughter, and her child (my granddaughter). Thankfully, before that plan could ever be implemented, my daughter reconsidered, had moved on to Plan B and moved where they could both live and receive help from her dad.

In this case, despite discouraging KC from doing what KC felt was best and had every right to do, she never herself totally assumed the role of guardian nor relieved KC altogether of the responsibility. That too is understandable, given that she allowed KC to continue living in the home there with them--and would otherwise stand accused of "stealing" Caylee (or her affections) away from KC. It's also not hard to grasp how KC might have felt defensive about her attempts to parent, since CA had reportedly criticized KC openly in front of friends about other things. Nor is it hard to understand on CA's part why, altho it was occasionally fun to be Caylee's "favorite," to feel needed and loved and relive those earlier fulfilling years when KC was mallable and compliant, when it wasn't inconvenient, on some level she must have also deeply resented KC's irresponsibility, freedom and apparent oblivion (not to mention deceit) as CA was the one coming home tired from work to more responsibilities--while KC continues her carefree lifestyle, escaping what was "supposed" to be her responsibility, partying into the night. Nor how she might have--at those difficult times it didn't suit her--regretted absolving or talking KC into shirking or foisting all of her responsibilities upon her, or just been hoping KC might eventually step up. It should also be pointed out that even tho KC was by then an "adult," their mother-daughter dynamic is a force to be reckoned w and the approval/disapproval factor inescapable. Thus "KC's" choice of whether or not to relinquish parental responsibility was in a very real sense subject to the silent (and more likely not so silent) judgment or permission of her mother. And CA by now discovers it is she who is having to make the sacrifices for "KC's" choice. We can say KC was capable of making her own decision, yet when your mother chastises or condemns you for that decision, that is a powerful influence that should not be underestimated. None of this is to excuse, only to help us understand. Because in the end, I think few would argue that KC's actual choice (vs CA's) would have undoubtedly turned out better for little Caylee. And in the absence of real true agreement between them what Caylee was left w instead was theoretically shared but oftentimes a blurring of parental responsibilities. What we do know is what was testified to in interviews (see 8/25/08 document dump) released long ago and well substantiated by multiple and reliable sources. JMO

"Four hundred pages of documents released by police in the case of a missing Orlando toddler reveal that her mother wanted to give her up for adoption before she was born, but her grandmother convinced her not to."

"Court documents show 22-year-old Casey Anthony, the mother of missing Florida toddler, Caylee Anthony, wanted to give the girl up for adoption before she was born.

"Documents released by prosecutors Monday show Casey Anthony's mother insisted that she keep the child."

"Casey Anthony wanted to give up her unborn child for adoption. But those plans were nixed by her mother, who insisted she keep the baby... Childhood friend Kiomarie Torres Cruz said that during Casey Anthony's pregnancy, she wanted to put the baby up for adoption. Cruz told Anthony she would be interested in adopting the unborn child because she couldn't have children herself. Cruz said she thought Anthony was bipolar. At times, Anthony would ask her something one day, and then would not remember later that she asked the question."


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,2732067.story

http://www.necn.com/Boston/Nation/Re...219761697.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,410865,00.html

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2...26/376590.html

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/27429754.html

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/172...orlpn&psp=news

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/do...ase/2032023385

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photog...dexGallery.htm

Unless I'm not remembering correctly, the only source of the story that Cindy forced Casey to have the baby rather than putting it up for adoption was Kiomarie and I don't know how reliable she is as a source. She claimed she wanted to adopt the baby, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Isn't she the same age as Casey? How many unmarried 19 year olds would be allowed to adopt a child much less want to adopt one?

Again, perhaps someone can verify whether my memory is correct, but I thought Jesse said Casey opted not to put the baby up for adoption.

I completely agree with your statement above about Cindy not totally assuming the role of guardian or taking responsibility for Caylee. Cindy was the only one in the house working full time. I just get the impression that no one gave poor little Caylee a lot of attention.

One thing I haven't understood is the implication that Cindy needed to watch Caylee every night. My daughter was always in bed asleep by 7 pm when she was a toddler. Yes, someone needed to be home but how much care would a little one require when she's asleep?

 

[kiki the parrot]

Unless I'm not remembering correctly, the only source of the story that Cindy forced Casey to have the baby rather than putting it up for adoption was Kiomarie and I don't know how reliable she is as a source. She claimed she wanted to adopt the baby, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Isn't she the same age as Casey? How many unmarried 19 year olds would be allowed to adopt a child much less want to adopt one?

Again, perhaps someone can verify whether my memory is correct, but I thought Jesse said Casey opted not to put the baby up for adoption.

I completely agree with your statement above about Cindy not totally assuming the role of guardian or taking responsibility for Caylee. Cindy was the only one in the house working full time. I just get the impression that no one gave poor little Caylee a lot of attention.

One thing I haven't understood is the implication that Cindy needed to watch Caylee every night. My daughter was always in bed asleep by 7 pm when she was a toddler. Yes, someone needed to be home but how much care would a little one require when she's asleep?

Yes KC opted not to follow thru w her first inclination... after considerable pressure from CA. Once again, this is based upon transcripts of LE interviews w/in August document dump. As for a two year-old Caylee requiring no attention or assistance after being tucked into bed promptly at 7pm, well after raising four of my own (and a two year-old granddaughter who occasionally stays), I can only say I'm impressed, as you run a very tight ship lol! J/k, but it's a very ambitious and well laid plan and if CA didn't even get home from work until 6 pm...after which Caylee still needed to be fed, bathed, read a story or w/e her bedtime routine was... and that's if she's not fussy, or sick which can mean getting up throughout the night. JMO

Hi Kiki :wave: Yes, I believe KC thought about killing Caylee, at least since last March, if not before. I'm basing this theory on the computer forensic reports that show searchs for chloroform, neck breaking, household weapons along with missing children websites, and the 100th episode of "One Tree Hill" where the nanny kidnaps that child. I'm sure defense will have their explainations for these searches and in KC's favor, but I believe that Pros. will show that these searches are pieces of the puzzle that will lead to KC's conviction. I don't think KC thought about her future in the sense she would be spending the rest of her life in jail if she killed Caylee, she simply thought she would get away with it. She lived 31 days thinking she got away with it..proof was in her partying. When she stole and wrote checks from Amy's bank account, signing her own name...she obviously thought she would get away with it, when she stole from her grandparents, LA, CA, she thought she would get away with it. When she lied to investigators, she thought she would get away with it. KC does her nasty little deeds and never thinks about getting caught, she thinks she can twist, turn, talk, and place blame on others to "get away with it"...Hey, I never said she was the bright...LOL. When KC received her tatoo, it never crossed her mind that she only had a certain amount of time before the gig was up. She wasn't trading anything, she planned on living the life of miss little social bug, while basking in her high she got from showing CA who was the final boss...but like I said, this is all just my opinion, nothing more. Hope I am not confusing you any more...:crazy:

:wave:
(bold mine) Hey C2u I read a post of JWG's, in which he put these web searches--all 12 minutes of them--into perspective and into a less sinister light. He, and numerous other posters as well have allowed that this could've resulted from an impromptu series of searches, fueled more by curiosity. (As many posters have also quipped or like anyone who watches CSI, courtroom, crime or forensic tv, I'd sure hate LE to take a look at this computer, they'd probably have me locked up!) We shall see, but no one can really know more re their relevance until trial.

Re bolded, That KC's compulsive high-risk behaviors including stealing were escalating, that she was abandoning all caution or reason, and became increasingly reckless to the point of even signing her own name (come on...) just strengthens the argument she knew perfectly well she was not going to get away w any of it--and it was only a matter of time so what did it matter at that point anyway? ("I should've been stopped a long time ago.") KC is not unintelligent. C2u I hate to say it but the day you or I begin signing our own names to a stolen forged check is the day we'll have lost all hope for the future, or of being free for long. I seriously started to crack up when I heard that, except it's not really funny at all because it's very symptomatic of someone w/out hope, and deeply troubled IMO.

 

[mikeysmommom]

I do not believe that Cindy or anyone else could force Casey to do anything that Casey did not want to do...including having a baby. So my answer would have to be: No one forced Casey to have Caylee or to keep Caylee.

:clap::clap::clap:ITA

 

[txsvicki]

There's no way I believe that Cindy forced Casey into having or keeping the baby. Cindy probably didn't even know that Casey was pregnant until showing quite a bit. Cindy might have told Casey that everything would be okay if she kept the baby which is exactly what she said on Myspace. Cindy couldn't force Casey into doing anything. She couldn't force her into working, telling the truth, finishing high school, get a GED, not steal, not use her credit cards, or anything. How on earth could she force her into keeping a child if she didn't choose to or feel that it was in her best interest being the sociopath that she is. Cindy seems to have done what she promised by providing a nice safe home, food, child care, gas, credit card purchases, laptop, internet, tv, and a vehicle. Casey did nothing.

 

[gardenhart]

Yes KC opted not to follow thru w her first inclination... after considerable pressure from CA. Once again, this is based upon transcripts of LE interviews w/in August document dump. As for a two year-old Caylee requiring no attention or assistance after being tucked into bed promptly at 7pm, well after raising four of my own (and a two year-old granddaughter who occasionally stays), I can only say I'm impressed, as you run a very tight ship lol! J/k, but it's a very ambitious and well laid plan and if CA didn't even get home from work until 6 pm...after which Caylee still needed to be fed, bathed, read a story or w/e her bedtime routine was... and that's if she's not fussy, or sick which can mean getting up throughout the night. JMO

Yes, but the only transcript containing that info is the interview with Kiomarie. That's not enough to convince me. Like many others here, I don't think Cindy or anyone else is capable of making Casey do anything she doesn't want to do. It's pretty obvious from all of the jail visits with her parents they wouldn't dare say boo to her.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Yes, but the only transcript containing that info is the interview with Kiomarie. That's not enough to convince me. Like many others here, I don't think Cindy or anyone else is capable of making Casey do anything she doesn't want to do. It's pretty obvious from all of the jail visits with her parents they wouldn't dare say boo to her.

That was then... and this is now . It's also pretty obvious that there was a power shift between these women since Caylee was born--and that it wasn't until after this that KC turned the tables on her overcontrolling mother. And one has to also wonder why did CA refer to Caylee as KC's "mistake." I shared the reasons for believing as I do, in some length--so we shall simply agree to disagree. JMO
:seeya:

 

[brighidin]

Unsure if this is the place for this question: if this is such a dysfunctional family how did Lee escape (supposedly, maybe) unscathed? Was KC mentally unstable from an early age or did this all occur after Caylee's birth? Just how many secrets does Lee hold as to Casey's upbringing?

I don't think he has. he seems as odd and rage filled as the rest of them.

 

[Cerenity2u]

Yes, but the only transcript containing that info is the interview with Kiomarie. That's not enough to convince me. Like many others here, I don't think Cindy or anyone else is capable of making Casey do anything she doesn't want to do. It's pretty obvious from all of the jail visits with her parents they wouldn't dare say boo to her.

I think CA was able to get KC to do what she wanted her to do by either threats, promises or manipulation. I believe that CA kept a lot of KC's little dirty deeds and secrets from GA, and used them as leverage when she needed KC to conform. When CA and Amy showed up to get KC at TL's apt. KC flat out told her mom she was NOT leaving with her. After CA and KC stepped outside for a chat, KC conformed and indeed left with CA. Don't get me wrong, I don't for one min. believe that CA had total control over KC, but she did have control to an extent IMO.

 

[Never4GetCaylee]

For all of Cindy's control freak status, she didn't seem to have that over Casey. I mean obviously she never forced her to hand over her paycheck so Cindy could pay some of Casey's bills, put the car in her name or so she could put some money back into her 401K. I think Cindy had little control over KC and KC kept Caylee because she knew having the baby around would keep her on the gravy train.

 

[mes1955]

I've been confused about this, too. I keep hearing that KC wanted to put the baby up for adoption, but CA wouldn't hear of it. Then JG says he wanted KC to put the baby up for adoption, but KC wouldn't hear of it. Which is it?

Why would you think it would be unusual for someone to contemplate adoption, but change their mind? I would venture to guess that a large majority of pregnant teenagers will mention the word adoption at some point; and even if they don't say it out loud, they have probably thought it. I believe those changes of heart are extremely commonplace. Even women who enter into surrogate-mother contracts change their minds and end up reneging on large dollar value contracts because they decide to keep the baby.

Despite the reports that KC considered adoption, all accounts seem to be indicate that KC was perceived as a good mother--that's not usually something that is an act.

 

[PaddieAB]

Yes, but the only transcript containing that info is the interview with Kiomarie. That's not enough to convince me. Like many others here, I don't think Cindy or anyone else is capable of making Casey do anything she doesn't want to do. It's pretty obvious from all of the jail visits with her parents they wouldn't dare say boo to her.

Yes I read that transcript as well. If I recall correctly Kiomarie was 19, unable to have babies and wanted to raise Caylee. So Casey told Kiomarie no, that CA wouldn't let her hand Caylee over. That's about as dumb as it gets. IMO Sounds like two friends playing with a barbie doll.

 

[debs]

We know from Uncle Rick that Casey's pregnancy was at least being hidden from everyone else until Casey was 7 months pregnant. We don't know squat about whether Cindy and George knew. We know they denied it to Rick, but that doesn't mean they were in denial.

Maybe when Rick's wedding came up, the Anthony's were still dealing with the knowledge and wondering what Casey was going to do. If nothing else, we've learned these folks don't want others in their bidnez. We know Cindy lies to cover for Casey. We know Casey lies. We know George will go along with the scenario laid out for him.

Cindy knew about Casey's pregnancy and lied to Rick because they didn't want others to know that their little family was not perfect.

 

[kiki the parrot]

For all of Cindy's control freak status, she didn't seem to have that over Casey. I mean obviously she never forced her to hand over her paycheck so Cindy could pay some of Casey's bills, put the car in her name or so she could put some money back into her 401K. I think Cindy had little control over KC and KC kept Caylee because she knew having the baby around would keep her on the gravy train.

What paycheck...? :waitasec:

One of the reasons CA had been so successful in controlling KC was she'd never really fostered independence in her daughter; and while CA may have complained when the result of all that enabling was KC's freeloading, in a very real sense CA kept KC dependent upon her--during which time KC was more easily controlled. Once CA learned of KC's pregnancy she was faced w a dilemma during this transitional period: CA couldn't relinquish control by allowing KC to adopt out Caylee... but neither was she willing to feel controlled by KC by absolving her completely of "KC's mistake." Thus CA was living w the reality of raising a little one at nearly 50 years of age. After Caylee came along the power eventually was transferred to KC who wielded newfound leverage over CA, and was enjoying being in the driver's seat. It isn't about blaming CA. Yet all along w CA (and so likewise naturally later w KC) it seems to be all about control. JMO

 

[JBean]

While I agree 100% w JBean that we are all ultimately responsible for our own choices, reportedly CA persisted against even KC's misgivings and better judgment, in pressuring her to not adopt out Caylee. On one level I can understand this--as I was nearly faced myself w this heartwrenching dilemma involving my own very young single, struggling daughter, and her child (my granddaughter). Thankfully, before that plan could ever be implemented, my daughter reconsidered, had moved on to Plan B and moved where they could both live and receive help from her dad.

In this case, despite discouraging KC from doing what KC felt was best and had every right to do, she never herself totally assumed the role of guardian nor relieved KC altogether of the responsibility. That too is understandable, given that she allowed KC to continue living in the home there with them--and would otherwise stand accused of "stealing" Caylee (or her affections) away from KC. It's also not hard to grasp how KC might have felt defensive about her attempts to parent, since CA had reportedly criticized KC openly in front of friends about other things. Nor is it hard to understand on CA's part why, altho it was occasionally fun to be Caylee's "favorite," to feel needed and loved and relive those earlier fulfilling years when KC was mallable and compliant, when it wasn't inconvenient, on some level she must have also deeply resented KC's irresponsibility, freedom and apparent oblivion (not to mention deceit) as CA was the one coming home tired from work to more responsibilities--while KC continues her carefree lifestyle, escaping what was "supposed" to be her responsibility, partying into the night. Nor how she might have--at those difficult times it didn't suit her--regretted absolving or talking KC into shirking or foisting all of her responsibilities upon her, or just been hoping KC might eventually step up. It should also be pointed out that even tho KC was by then an "adult," their mother-daughter dynamic is a force to be reckoned w and the approval/disapproval factor inescapable. Thus "KC's" choice of whether or not to relinquish parental responsibility was in a very real sense subject to the silent (and more likely not so silent) judgment or permission of her mother. And CA by now discovers it is she who is having to make the sacrifices for "KC's" choice. We can say KC was capable of making her own decision, yet when your mother chastises or condemns you for that decision, that is a powerful influence that should not be underestimated. None of this is to excuse, only to help us understand. Because in the end, I think few would argue that KC's actual choice (vs CA's) would have undoubtedly turned out better for little Caylee. And in the absence of real true agreement between them what Caylee was left w instead was theoretically shared but oftentimes a blurring of parental responsibilities. What we do know is what was testified to in interviews (see 8/25/08 document dump) released long ago and well substantiated by multiple and reliable sources. JMO

"Four hundred pages of documents released by police in the case of a missing Orlando toddler reveal that her mother wanted to give her up for adoption before she was born, but her grandmother convinced her not to."

"Court documents show 22-year-old Casey Anthony, the mother of missing Florida toddler, Caylee Anthony, wanted to give the girl up for adoption before she was born.

"Documents released by prosecutors Monday show Casey Anthony's mother insisted that she keep the child."

"Casey Anthony wanted to give up her unborn child for adoption. But those plans were nixed by her mother, who insisted she keep the baby... Childhood friend Kiomarie Torres Cruz said that during Casey Anthony's pregnancy, she wanted to put the baby up for adoption. Cruz told Anthony she would be interested in adopting the unborn child because she couldn't have children herself. Cruz said she thought Anthony was bipolar. At times, Anthony would ask her something one day, and then would not remember later that she asked the question."


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,2732067.story

http://www.necn.com/Boston/Nation/Re...219761697.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,410865,00.html

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2...26/376590.html

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/27429754.html

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/172...orlpn&psp=news

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/do...ase/2032023385

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photog...dexGallery.htm

KC didn't give the baby up because that is what she chose to do. That is a fact. If Casey chose to give in to the pressure of her mother's demands, suggestions or any other type of undue influence, that was also Casey's choice.

 

[kiki the parrot]

KC didn't give the baby up because that is what she chose to do. That is a fact. If Casey chose to give in to the pressure of her mother's demands, suggestions or any other type of undue influence, that was also Casey's choice.

I see your pov. I've learned over the years however that there are times when people think an agreement has been arrived at--in hopes the drama and conflict, at least, will end--and so proceed, altho no real true agreement was ever reached. I see this as likely the case here. When we're eager to have our way or our expectations met, I have found there are often many hidden, silent clauses which go unspoken--on both ends--in the name of peace, and persuasion. When CA was intent upon convincing KC into not giving away her granddaughter (which isn't difficult to understand or imagine) I've no doubt there were many things offered and promised which could make this seem more attractive, and manageable to KC. And when KC went along w CA's plan, she also had hopes of a future w JG, so may have thought he would enable her (lit) to play the role of mother. The reality, however, turned out quite differently. KC wasn't stepping up (in the manner CA "just naturally figured" she would) as CA was faced continually w her daughter's irresponsibility. The novelty of motherhood--under her mother's critical watch--had also slowly begun wearing off for KC. As I said JBean, it isn't about blaming CA (not for me anyway) only understanding the dynamics between the two and what role those played in a dilemma I've lived thru myself and yes, what ultimately should have been been best left KC's decision. JMO

:blowkiss:

 

[JBean]

I see your pov. I've learned over the years however that there are times when people think an agreement has been arrived at--in hopes the drama and conflict, at least, will end--and so proceed, altho no real true agreement was ever reached. I see this as likely the case here. When we're eager to have our way or our expectations met, I have found there are often many hidden, silent clauses which go unspoken--on both ends--in the name of peace, and persuasion. When CA was intent upon convincing KC into not giving away her granddaughter (which isn't difficult to understand or imagine) I'm sure there were many things offered and promised which could make this seem more attractive, or manageable to KC. And when KC went along w CA's plan, she also had plans of a future w JG, so may have thought he would enable her (lit) to play the role of mother. The reality, however, turned out quite differently. KC wasn't stepping up, evidently (in the manner CA "just naturally figured" she would) but being reminded continually of her daughter's irresponsibility. And the novelty of motherhood--under her mother's critical watch--had undoubtedly worn off for KC. As I said JBean, it isn't about blaming CA (not for me anyway), it's been about understanding the dynamics between these two. JMO

:blowkiss:

Everything you have described are most likely things that KC factored into her decision to have Caylee.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Everything you have described are most likely things that KC factored into her decision to have Caylee.

I dunno JBean, how do we "factor" the withholding of love, or approval/rejection of a parent we've been raised to be dependent upon? The more I understand about malignant narcissism and narcissistic parenting, the more I realize that it results in a fierce, strongwilled battle just to have an identity or "voice" of one's own. The ironwilled, obnoxious KC we see today is probably light years from the KC who was either too ashamed or too scared to even confess her pregnancy until the seventh month. I am wondering JBean if there is enough condemnation heaped upon us (for an adoption eg) if the price for "choosing" or for a genuinely "independent" decision becomes essentially too costly to pay. But that's JMO!

 

[Pink Panther]

I dunno JBean, how do we "factor" the withholding of love, or approval/rejection of a parent we've been raised to be dependent upon? The more I understand about malignant narcissism and narcissistic parenting, the more I realize that it results in a fierce, strongwilled battle just to have an identity or "voice" of one's own. The ironwilled, obnoxious KC we see today is probably light years from the KC who was either too ashamed or too scared to even confess her pregnancy until the seventh month. I am wondering JBean if there is enough condemnation heaped upon us (for an adoption eg) if the price for "choosing" or for a genuinely "independent" decision becomes essentially too costly to pay. But that's JMO!

Just curious kiki - Why you don't seem to think it might be possible that CA also might not have a personality disorder similar to the one that you think KC might have?

 

[kiki the parrot]

Just curious kiki - Why you don't seem to think it might be possible that CA also might not have a personality disorder similar to the one that you think KC might have?

I am not sure how anyone here could ever get the impression that I don't believe this--when I've posted ad infinitum about the generational pattern of narcissistic parenting and how this is in fact passed on--not w/in DNA, but learned. "Absolutely..." lol. JMO

 

[JWG]

I am not sure how anyone here could ever get the impression that I don't believe this--when I've posted ad infinitum about the generational pattern of narcissistic parenting and how this is in fact passed on--not w/in DNA, but learned. "Absolutely..." lol. JMO

And...sad to think about it...was Caylee doomed to repeat the pattern?