Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[PrincessSezMe]

Snipped from JR's BPD interview April 30, 1997:

"ST: John, one of the things, as you know better than anybody, at some point, if you’re not involved in this, we’ve got to take you out of the bucket. And you’ve been in it for four months and you certainly know why you’re in that bucket is you’re in the house, and I don’t need to say anything more than that. But, and I ask this question of Patsy, and where it might come out if (inaudible), but I’ll ask it. And I’m not asking you to take one, but if you were to take a polygraph, how would you do?

JR: Well, what I’ve been told is that, and I felt tremendous guilt after we lost JonBenet, because hadn’t protected her, like I failed as a parent. And was told that that’s, with that kind of emotion you shouldn’t take a lie detector test because you did have that guilt feeling, and, but, so I don’t know about the test, but I did not kill my daughter if that’s what you want to ask me. She was the most precious thing to me in the world. So if the lie detector test is correct and it was done correct, I’d pass it 100%."

I think John's in that bucket up to his eyeballs. The entire interview is laughable. John has a VERY poor memory. I bet he says "I don't recall" at least 100 times. I almost look at this as John's confession when he says "I did not kill my daughter if that's what you want to ask me.....". Guilty.... lier....that's MOO.

 

[Ithink]

Is it possible the Ramseys were protecting two children? BR and JAR?

Can anybody fill me in on how much JAR has been investigated for being responsible for the prior molestation of JBR? He was just about 20 yrs old, perhaps the prime time post-puberty he was coming to understand his desires. He had access to JBR; their bedrooms were right next to each other. JAR was cleared of being in Denver Dec 25, 26th, so he was not responsible for anything in that house on Dec 25, 26th. But was he investigated and/or cleared as a potential child molester? Did Kolar mention JAR in his book?

BR issues the head injury blow. JR and PR are recently aware of what JAR had been doing to JBR. I can see this scenario instigating a cover-up of a very embarrassing family situation.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

Is it possible the Ramseys were protecting two children? BR and JAR?

Can anybody fill me in on how much JAR has been investigated for being responsible for the prior molestation of JBR? He was just about 20 yrs old, perhaps the prime time post-puberty he was coming to understand his desires. He had access to JBR; their bedrooms were right next to each other. JAR was cleared of being in Denver Dec 25, 26th, so he was not responsible for anything in that house on Dec 25, 26th. But was he investigated and/or cleared as a potential child molester? Did Kolar mention JAR in his book?

BR issues the head injury blow. JR and PR are recently aware of what JAR had been doing to JBR. I can see this scenario instigating a cover-up of a very embarrassing family situation.

IThink - It puzzles me how few voters believe JR was the one responsible for the molestation/murder of JonBenet. His deception is obvious, and his body language gives me the creeps quite frankly. Did Patsy know and understand this at some point, and agree to the cover up in order to "keep up appearances? Who can say? I can't in all honesty, with what I've read, believe BR did it. If what the parents were involved in was simply a cover up to save their son, why no palpable grief from the father over the death of his daughter? The behavior of both these parents put LE's radar up...and with good reason.

I'm more inclined to go for the simplest explanation. JR was abusing his daughter (report from IIRC, a teacher of JBR, said she had gotten really clingy with her mother lately...not a usual trait for her), perhaps JBR was going to spill the beans on someone. And that someone silenced her forever. Who was in that house, and who is most likely to have molested JBR? Who displayed pretty questionable behavior and ethics right from the get go? Who still seems to be pretty "disinterested" in finding his daughter's killer?

Patsy is likely complicit in this for something. But I don't believe it's murder. What I will never understand is how any mother would not put their child first...even if it means giving up your own husband. JMO

 

[DeeDee249]

Maybe Patsy DID put her child first...her SURVIVING child.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

Maybe Patsy DID put her child first...her SURVIVING child.

I'm not saying it's not possible...only that I haven't seen any evidence that points to BR. He did refuse to be interviewed recently, and why wouldn't he want to clear his name? Not waffling here, JR is still my prime suspect.

One of my thoughts when considering his involvement is, if BR was sexually abusing JBR, why didn't she talk to anyone about it? She was close to her mother from all accounts. She had lots of family around her. And if PR and JR KNEW there was that kind of thing going on, they could afford to put BR in counseling or get help with it. Would they be so bent on appearances that they wouldn't do that? IDK. I hope some day somebody talks, and we have answers. :banghead:

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm not saying it's not possible...only that I haven't seen any evidence that points to BR. He did refuse to be interviewed recently, and why wouldn't he want to clear his name? Not waffling here, JR is still my prime suspect.

One of my thoughts when considering his involvement is, if BR was sexually abusing JBR, why didn't she talk to anyone about it? She was close to her mother from all accounts. She had lots of family around her. And if PR and JR KNEW there was that kind of thing going on, they could afford to put BR in counseling or get help with it. Would they be so bent on appearances that they wouldn't do that? IDK. I hope some day somebody talks, and we have answers. :banghead:

JB was six years old! Abused kids MUCH older sometimes don't talk about it. Abusers have ways to keep kids quiet. Threats to harm a pet or family member...little kids take those seriously. They don't realize if you tell someone, the abuser will get caught and the abuse will stop and your family or pet won't be harmed.
In my own family, someone who was abused by a priest as a 7-10 year old kept quiet because his mother taught at the Parish school and the abuser threatened to have his mom lose her job if he told. And she NEEDED that job.

 

[JodyMT]

I don't think I have ever heard this mentioned:

Burke was taken to the Whites house after the 911 call; did the police ever ask the Whites what Burke said to them or what he asked them about what was going on?

 

[PrincessSezMe]

JB was six years old! Abused kids MUCH older sometimes don't talk about it. Abusers have ways to keep kids quiet. Threats to harm a pet or family member...little kids take those seriously. They don't realize if you tell someone, the abuser will get caught and the abuse will stop and your family or pet won't be harmed.
In my own family, someone who was abused by a priest as a 7-10 year old kept quiet because his mother taught at the Parish school and the abuser threatened to have his mom lose her job if he told. And she NEEDED that job.

I agree with what you say about abuse, it's often covered up, and those who are abused don't speak up. I don't have any hard and fast answers why I tend to lean towards JR, it's just a sense I get from him. JBR may have covered up the inappropriate stuff going on, but the question begs...who was she covering up for? Everyone who was in that house is suspect...and only one or two people know the answer to "who did it". The third person is dead and will never be able to tell.


I guess we can just agree to disagree?

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

what if JBR was not killed and raped by the same person?
what if BR did beat her on her head, she was dying but who has been abusing her did not want to take her to the hospital and had to stage everything?

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I don't think I have ever heard this mentioned:

Burke was taken to the Whites house after the 911 call; did the police ever ask the Whites what Burke said to them or what he asked them about what was going on?

Burke was interviewed at the Whites. The Ramsey's were furious. A woman said she was the grandmother, but I think she said "a" and it was taken as Burke's grandmother. She sat in the interview, and nothing that Burke said has been released. Hmm, I wonder if she told Fleet something that Burke said in that interview? Something that made Fleet White angry enough to confront John about in Atlanta?

A golf club was found outside the house that had a blonde hair on it.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

JB was six years old! Abused kids MUCH older sometimes don't talk about it. Abusers have ways to keep kids quiet. Threats to harm a pet or family member...little kids take those seriously. They don't realize if you tell someone, the abuser will get caught and the abuse will stop and your family or pet won't be harmed.
In my own family, someone who was abused by a priest as a 7-10 year old kept quiet because his mother taught at the Parish school and the abuser threatened to have his mom lose her job if he told. And she NEEDED that job.

Threats are a very effective tool that an abuser uses.

I think JonBenet's "sexual abuse" started sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas Day. Her teachers noticed that she became very clingy to Pasty before her death. There was more going on than an overworked, overexposed little girl.

The flashlight was used that night, but I think it was used to carry her to the basement and used for writing the ransom note. A neighbor saw "strange lights" moving around in the kitchen during the night/morning along with the sunroom's light off, something that was unusual.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

Threats are a very effective tool that an abuser uses.

I think JonBenet's "sexual abuse" started sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas Day. Her teachers noticed that she became very clingy to Pasty before her death. There was more going on than an overworked, overexposed little girl.

The flashlight was used that night, but I think it was used to carry her to the basement and used for writing the ransom note. A neighbor saw "strange lights" moving around in the kitchen during the night/morning along with the sunroom's light off, something that was unusual.

My thoughts exactly. I think the abuse started not long before she was murdered. The fact that JonBenet didn't tell anyone reinforces to me that it was an adult that was abusing her. What would BR be able to threaten her with that would keep her quiet? Another thing that points to JR as the abuser/murderer IMO. I think he feared she was going to tell, or she fought him on that particular night and he hit her to keep her quiet. The rest was staging. I can't understand why LE ruled him out. His actions and behavior scream "guilty" to me. If it was all based on the ransom note, and the handwriting analysis, they were misdirected. Handwriting analysis is not an exact science, plus at least two of these "experts" were "hired" by his investigative team. He was also absent from the house (or made himself scarce) at least twice the day JonBenet was discovered, and gave pretty feeble excuses for that. Who gives a damn about the mail when your daughter is missing?

If PR did kill JonBenet, the rage would have been over much more than wetting the bed. And I just don't buy that she would kill her daughter in a jealous rage after catching her and JR doing something inappropriate. This was a woman that lived vicariously through her daughter. The pageants were the centre of Patsy's life. She doted on her daughter. When and how Patsy became part of the cover up, to me, is the unknown in this case.

Another thing that really puzzles me is the "amnesia" both her and JR seemed to develop after the murder. After reading their first interviews with LE I'm astounded. PR couldn't recall even the simplest events around the day it happened. When asked if they had a sit down dinner or buffet style dinner at the White's on Christmas Day she said she "didn't remember". How could you not remember if you sat down and were served dinner, or served it up yourself buffet style? It boggles my mind. It's no wonder LE couldn't make heads nor tails of the stories they were telling.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

My thoughts exactly. I think the abuse started not long before she was murdered. The fact that JonBenet didn't tell anyone reinforces to me that it was an adult that was abusing her. What would BR be able to threaten her with that would keep her quiet? Another thing that points to JR as the abuser/murderer IMO. I think he feared she was going to tell, or she fought him on that particular night and he hit her to keep her quiet. The rest was staging. I can't understand why LE ruled him out. His actions and behavior scream "guilty" to me. If it was all based on the ransom note, and the handwriting analysis, they were misdirected. Handwriting analysis is not an exact science, plus at least two of these "experts" were "hired" by his investigative team. He was also absent from the house (or made himself scarce) at least twice the day JonBenet was discovered, and gave pretty feeble excuses for that. Who gives a damn about the mail when your daughter is missing?

If PR did kill JonBenet, the rage would have been over much more than wetting the bed. And I just don't buy that she would kill her daughter in a jealous rage after catching her and JR doing something inappropriate. This was a woman that lived vicariously through her daughter. The pageants were the centre of Patsy's life. She doted on her daughter. When and how Patsy became part of the cover up, to me, is the unknown in this case.

Another thing that really puzzles me is the "amnesia" both her and JR seemed to develop after the murder. After reading their first interviews with LE I'm astounded. PR couldn't recall even the simplest events around the day it happened. When asked if they had a sit down dinner or buffet style dinner at the White's on Christmas Day she said she "didn't remember". How could you not remember if you sat down and were served dinner, or served it up yourself buffet style? It boggles my mind. It's no wonder LE couldn't make heads nor tails of the stories they were telling.

I've read that John went missing only once that morning, was there another? He was heard on the phone making plans to fly out of Boulder that afternoon though, and was told they couldn't leave. One thing I never understood was John having JAR, MR and Stewart Long's plane diverted to Boulder. Why bring your other children to a kidnapping? Why not have them return to Atlanta? Stewart Long said John got in the van and said he'd found JonBenet at ten that morning. The time he went missing.

Pasty did a "I might have" about the red fleece jacket. She said she "may have" been cold and Priscilla "might have" offered her her jacket to wear. She also said they both had the same jacket.

An answer for everything ,but no commitment or owning up to any questions. Steve Thomas said Pasty's answers were like trying to hold jello.

Do you remember Best Little Whorehouse in Texas? " "Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep, now they see me now they don't- I've come and gone and, ooh I love to sweep around the wide step, cut a little swathe and lead the people on." I've always had that song in mind when I read or heard anything about John and Pasty Ramsey.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

I've read that John went missing only once that morning, was there another? He was heard on the phone making plans to fly out of Boulder that afternoon though and was told he could leave. One thing I never understood was John having JAR, MR and Stewart Long plane diverted Boulder. Why bring your other children to a kidnapping? Why not have them return to Atlanta? Stewart Long said John got in the van and said he'd found JonBenet at ten that morning. The time he went missing.

Pasty did a "I might of" about the red fleece jacket. She said she "may of" been cold and Priscilla "might have" offered her her own jacket to wear. She also said they both had the same jacket.

An answer for everything ,but no commitment or owning up to any questions. Steve Thomas said Pasty's answers were like trying to hold jello. S

Ha, ha, love it. Like trying to hold jello EXACTLY. I thought it was a couple of times he disappeared. Once when he claimed to have found the window open in the train room and closed it, and once when he went out to get the mail (that took him about 90 minutes wasn't it?). I could be wrong and those two things were during the same time period.

I found it really odd that PR's memory seemed to be fine when the LE interview was talking about mundane things, like where she grew up, went to school, etc. But as soon as they started talking about the timeframe around the murder she all of a sudden "couldn't remember" anything. JR was even worse. His account of breaking into that basement window "at a time he couldn't quite remember" was laughable. He "thought" he "might have" removed his suit. And maybe his "shirt" too but couldn't remember. That would have been some sight for a neighbor wouldn't it? Some nearly naked guy slithering in a basement window with nothing but his Jockey's and shoes on. :floorlaugh:

 

[dodie20]

Burke was interviewed at the Whites. The Ramsey's were furious. A woman said she was the grandmother, but I think she said "a" and it was taken as Burke's grandmother. She sat in the interview, and nothing that Burke said has been released. Hmm, I wonder if she told Fleet something that Burke said in that interview? Something that made Fleet White angry enough to confront John about in Atlanta?

A golf club was found outside the house that had a blonde hair on it.

I never heard about the club with a blonde hair? Since JB's skin wasn't broken or bleeding, hair is all I would expect to be found on the weapon. One thing's for sure though, the weapon came from that house, right along with every other thing that was used...and I think it was either left laying around, (blending in with the scenery), or hidden in the house. We know from a neighbor, that a flashlight was probably used to navigate around the house, and IMO, that's reason enough to wipe off prints. So, if the murderer didn't have time to get rid of the light, it's doubtful that he/she got rid of anything else. I mean, JB was left in the basement, the flashlight was left laying around, the practice note was found, the pen and the paper...every single thing, leads right back to the Rs. moo

 

[UKGuy]

I never heard about the club with a blonde hair? Since JB's skin wasn't broken or bleeding, hair is all I would expect to be found on the weapon. One thing's for sure though, the weapon came from that house, right along with every other thing that was used...and I think it was either left laying around, (blending in with the scenery), or hidden in the house. We know from a neighbor, that a flashlight was probably used to navigate around the house, and IMO, that's reason enough to wipe off prints. So, if the murderer didn't have time to get rid of the light, it's doubtful that he/she got rid of anything else. I mean, JB was left in the basement, the flashlight was left laying around, the practice note was found, the pen and the paper...every single thing, leads right back to the Rs. moo

dodie20,
Gotta agree with you. The R's are in it, up to their neck, and does'nt JR know it, all those pseudo-confessional books. I'm not really a saint, I just look like one, because two of my daughters have died on me, as a father thats bad news. Patsy should really have taken that on board, but I'll bet the $$'s were flashing big time, and Nedra had her catalog out?

Two things, for me, stand out in this case. They are like the dog that never barked, we all know they are there, but somehow they escape analysis.

One is the head injury which does not appear to match you standard domestic sexual assault profile.

The other is the time difference between JonBenet's estimated Time Of Death and the staging you outline above.


This is why I think there was more than one staging event. Whether its BDI, JDI, PDI etc, in one of those theories someone staged JonBenet's death, then for some reason there was a 180 degree reversal, almost last-minute staging, since so much stuff was left behind like the ransom note drafts.

Someone decided a kidnapping with JonBenet hidden away in the wine-cellar was their best strategy.


.

 

[SapphireSteel]

In my opinion, BDI is impossible, for many reasons.

Of course there is the obvious physical impossiblity that a small child such as Burke was able to inflict the bruising or move the body, but also the fact that innocent parents WOULD NOT let one child die to protect another...not in a million years. They would not be wandering around the house staging while their little girl fitted to death, they would be screaming to 911.

One thing we all agree on is the Ramsey is not innocent.

The only reason they staged was to save the hide of the guilty party...which we all know is John and Patsy.

It's like maths to me. One plus one does not equal 9.

:waitasec:

 

[PrincessSezMe]

dodie20,
Gotta agree with you. The R's are in it, up to their neck, and does'nt JR know it, all those pseudo-confessional books. I'm not really a saint, I just look like one, because two of my daughters have died on me, as a father thats bad news. Patsy should really have taken that on board, but I'll bet the $$'s were flashing big time, and Nedra had her catalog out?

Two things, for me, stand out in this case. They are like the dog that never barked, we all know they are there, but somehow they escape analysis.

One is the head injury which does not appear to match you standard domestic sexual assault profile.

The other is the time difference between JonBenet's estimated Time Of Death and the staging you outline above.


This is why I think there was more than one staging event. Whether its BDI, JDI, PDI etc, in one of those theories someone staged JonBenet's death, then for some reason there was a 180 degree reversal, almost last-minute staging, since so much stuff was left behind like the ransom note drafts.

Someone decided a kidnapping with JonBenet hidden away in the wine-cellar was their best strategy.


.

What I don't understand in this scenerio is why the ridiculous ransom note? If JBR's death was originally staged to look like a sexual assault (and wasn't a real sexual assault), why didn't the guilty party stick with that? Given the fact that JBR was part of the pageant circuit, this would have been much more believable than some "foreign faction" setting up a kidnapping and then leaving the supposed "kidnap victim" dead in the basement of the home. It just doesn't make sense. It was the ransom note that put LE's radar up immediately. Didn't make sense to them either.

IMO, if what you theorize was true, then these were the stupidest criminals in history. Even stupider than Casey Anthony.

 

[dodie20]

What I don't understand in this scenerio is why the ridiculous ransom note? If JBR's death was originally staged to look like a sexual assault (and wasn't a real sexual assault), why didn't the guilty party stick with that? Given the fact that JBR was part of the pageant circuit, this would have been much more believable than some "foreign faction" setting up a kidnapping and then leaving the supposed "kidnap victim" dead in the basement of the home. It just doesn't make sense. It was the ransom note that put LE's radar up immediately. Didn't make sense to them either.

IMO, if what you theorize was true, then these were the stupidest criminals in history. Even stupider than Casey Anthony.

This is what I think about the whys of the ransom note. If they had stuck with a rape/assault, without the note, all eyes would have zeroed in on them, simply because there would have been nowhere else to look. Add the note, and an outsider/intruder is thrown into the mix. I'm not sure if JB's body being found was a part of the plan, but if it hadn't been, this might have been seen as a straight up kidnapping. Actually, I'm shocked at how well the ransom note did work. Instead of being tossed aside as a fake, it was, and still is, taken seriously. If it weren't for JB's violent death, the note would be an amazing read and a glimpse into a warped mind. MOO

 

[jobo]

One scenerio contradicts the other. A ransom note saying they kidnapped JBR; Or tieing her up and leaving her dead in the basement (probably sexually assaulted) is two different plans.

I would think that if you were an intruder you would do one crime or the other....either kidnap the poor child, or assault and murder her in her home. Very odd, this crime, I suppose that is why it still isn't solved.

Maybe PR and JR had different ideas on how to cover up...so they used both scenerios. Crazy as that sounds, both scenerios were used.