Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[PrincessSezMe]

First off, anything that JR and PR say that cannot be independently verified is not to be trusted.

Second, about the presents being dropped off on the way back home. I thought this would be brought up by someone. I don't know this for a fact but I am assuming that the BPD questioned these people who the R's supposedly dropped off presents to and that all of these people independently verified that they did receive presents from the R's. Does anyone know if this is true? I hope that the BPD did not only rely on the word of JR and PR that this is a fact. But even if all of these people appeared to collaborate that sequence of events does not necessarily make it true. People can cover for other people when necessary, if you understand my meaning.

Isn't it a little strange that nobody can say when the R's actually left the party? It seems like it would be easy to determine that.

I want to mention the testimony of Nancy Krebs to BPD Detectives. I know there is a lot of controversy surrounding her testimony but if you step back and look at the picture NK presented, it is not what you would normally expect but it is completely understandable. I think that picture is relevant to these questions we are examining in this thread. That picture says that whatever happened is bigger than the R's. More people involved. People with a lot to lose if the truth were ever to be publicy revealed.

What I am saying here? I am saying that JBR was not intended to die but she did die in the middle of something that was meant to be completely secret. When it happened, people freaked out and went into defense mode. It was bad enough for JBR to die, but far worse would be that her unexpected death would bring exposure to something bigger and more secretive. It was important that this other thing be hidden at all cost, hence all of the elborate false clues everyone is discussing on this and other forums. In such a situation, the most important thing of all would be to get the body far away from where the murder actually took place.

What doesn't make sense to me in that scenerio, is why they would choose to take JBR home. If the idea was to create some fake kidnap/sexual assault, why not dump the body somewhere else? The only thing I can think of is that they couldn't bring themselves to just dump her somewhere, or they would have been trying to hide it from BR. I guess it would explain why they were vague around how JBR was taken into the house. And it would explain why PR had such "amnesia" around the whole Christmas day party at the White's. She couldn't remember who was there...couldn't remember what they ate, or how people were served....everything was "I don't remember". Was there even actually a party? If FW was somehow involved though, wouldn't you think he'd just shut up? He brought so much attention to himself. And he would have to be involved or he would be singing it from the rooftops that there was no party. I just can't buy it.

I still would have to go with the simplest explanation. And that is that JBR was killed in the home, just as LE concluded, and I believe JR was responsible.

 

[SapphireSteel]

First off, anything that JR and PR say that cannot be independently verified is not to be trusted.

Second, about the presents being dropped off on the way back home. I thought this would be brought up by someone. I don't know this for a fact but I am assuming that the BPD questioned these people who the R's supposedly dropped off presents to and that all of these people independently verified that they did receive presents from the R's. Does anyone know if this is true? I hope that the BPD did not only rely on the word of JR and PR that this is a fact. But even if all of these people appeared to collaborate that sequence of events does not necessarily make it true. People can cover for other people when necessary, if you understand my meaning.

Isn't it a little strange that nobody can say when the R's actually left the party? It seems like it would be easy to determine that.

I want to mention the testimony of Nancy Krebs to BPD Detectives. I know there is a lot of controversy surrounding her testimony but if you step back and look at the picture NK presented, it is not what you would normally expect but it is completely understandable. I think that picture is relevant to these questions we are examining in this thread. That picture says that whatever happened is bigger than the R's. More people involved. People with a lot to lose if the truth were ever to be publicy revealed.

What I am saying here? I am saying that JBR was not intended to die but she did die in the middle of something that was meant to be completely secret. When it happened, people freaked out and went into defense mode. It was bad enough for JBR to die, but far worse would be that her unexpected death would bring exposure to something bigger and more secretive. It was important that this other thing be hidden at all cost, hence all of the elborate false clues everyone is discussing on this and other forums. In such a situation, the most important thing of all would be to get the body far away from where the murder actually took place.

The theory that she died before she got home doesn't account for the pineapple..?

 

[Tadpole12]

I like rereading old post and walking down memory lane because it can be fun at times, and somethings never change. I wonder what Steve Martin routine I'll get this time? I guess banned isn't forever. Just put on another hat, and off you go baiting and stirring the pot.

Donde esta la casa de pepe?
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/7103.Steve_Martin

 

[Tadpole12]

The theory that she died before she got home doesn't account for the pineapple..?

Heyya SapphireSteel,

The possibility does exist, that JBR ate the pineapple as "early as 4:30PM"?

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682517/The%20Pineapple%20Evidence

Expert Opinion. "However, one Boulder medical examiner stated it could have been eaten as early as 4:30PM--before the Ramseys left their home for a dinner at the White's" (Schiller 1999a: 558). Internet poster Jameson says she talked with two Colorado coroners who had done reports on the autopsy findings and both asserted the pineapple "had been eaten hours before her death - - probably before she went to the Whites."

 

[DeeDee249]

Heyya SapphireSteel,

The possibility does exist, that JBR ate the pineapple as "early as 4:30PM"?

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682517/The%20Pineapple%20Evidence

Expert Opinion. "However, one Boulder medical examiner stated it could have been eaten as early as 4:30PM--before the Ramseys left their home for a dinner at the White's" (Schiller 1999a: 558). Internet poster Jameson says she talked with two Colorado coroners who had done reports on the autopsy findings and both asserted the pineapple "had been eaten hours before her death - - probably before she went to the Whites."

Sorry- that source is known for its lies. I don't care who she talked to.

The coroner who actually did the autopsy said that it was eaten about 2 hours before she died.
Food does not "leap frog" over other food in the digestive tract. It moves through in the order in which it was eaten. In JB, the "soft green fecal material" in her large intestine would have been anything she ate earlier that day, including anything eaten at the White's. There was nothing in her stomach, and the pineapple was found in the small intestine, which the stomach empties into.

 

[Anyhoo]

Heyya anyhoo,

Just wondered how the post party visits could be incorporated into this particular line of speculation.

FW has been considered as suspect; some suggest he has motive, means, and opportunity.
Typically, FW has been discussed as a known intruder type,
or the mastermind behind a hired kidnapping plot.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682475/Fleet%20White%20Jr

As for NK, is there any merit to her story?

• Was Story Fabricated? Internet poster The Punisher has done extensive research on Lee Hill and Ward Churchill and concluded that the Nancy Krebs story was a fabrication to discredit the FBI.

My thought is that the post-party visits may have been a deception. Do the people in the houses the R's supposedly dropped off presents to report seeing JBR alive? Even if they do, it does not prove she was.

FW is not an innocent person, IMO. I consider him a conspirator, along with JR, PR, and others.

And I want to make it very clear that there was no secret intruder who broke into the Ramsey home to commit this crime. It must be realized that this is nothing but a cover story to hide what actually happened. So if you are thinking in terms of an intruder, you should stop and think again.

As I said, I know there is controversy about the NK story, but if it were true, don't you think there would be an effort to discredit it? She even said that they would try to discredit her and at they have been largely successful. Even so, I have carefully read her testimony and I was amazed. Her story has many parallels to this case and hint at a world that few of us imagine is possible, but it is in that very world where the JBR murder begins to make sense.

 

[Anyhoo]

What doesn't make sense to me in that scenerio, is why they would choose to take JBR home. If the idea was to create some fake kidnap/sexual assault, why not dump the body somewhere else? The only thing I can think of is that they couldn't bring themselves to just dump her somewhere, or they would have been trying to hide it from BR. I guess it would explain why they were vague around how JBR was taken into the house. And it would explain why PR had such "amnesia" around the whole Christmas day party at the White's. She couldn't remember who was there...couldn't remember what they ate, or how people were served....everything was "I don't remember". Was there even actually a party? If FW was somehow involved though, wouldn't you think he'd just shut up? He brought so much attention to himself. And he would have to be involved or he would be singing it from the rooftops that there was no party. I just can't buy it.

I still would have to go with the simplest explanation. And that is that JBR was killed in the home, just as LE concluded, and I believe JR was responsible.

Let me first say that we are just exploring a theory here. I have no concrete attachment to this theory, but I would like to see it explored to see where it leads.

So, imagine that JBR died unexpectedly somewhere inside of FW's house in such a way that, if the full circumstances surrounding her death were exposed to LE, certain important people would be in danger of being exposed. What must be done to hide what has been going on? First, get JBR away from the actual crime scene. That is the most important thing and it has to be done fast.

There is no time for any fake kidnapping/sexual assault. She needs to be gotten somewhere else fast, to a new fake crime scene, where all kinds of false evidence can be planted to confuse LE. Suppose you are JR and PR and are in this situation. You are in a horrible situation because your daughter is dead, and yet you are not allowed to expose what really happened. You need to cover up both your involvement and other people's involvement in this secret. Your daughter is dead and a cover story needs to be created, which you don't have yet. You need time to think about it. What do you do with your dead daughter while you think about it? You bring her to your house while you decide what to do. It is natural for them to have brought her back to their house. Where do you put her dead body while you think about what to do? You put her as far away from you as you can, within your house. And that's just where she was put, down in that basement room as far away from JR and PR as she could be put and still be within the house. She was already dead by the time she went in that room.

You mention BR. In my scenario, BR knows his sister is dead on 12-25. He has to know. Anything which appears to indicate he does not know, or saw her alive, etc., is a cover story.

Something else is that JR and PR did not plan the cover up and planting of false clues by themselves. They had plenty of help by people who know what to do to confuse LE. Do I need to list all of the false clues planted everywhere around the R house (and outside) to confuse police?

It is very convenient to just say JR did it, but if you do, you would be ignoring a lot of other evidence that says other people were involved.

 

[Anyhoo]

One more thing I would like to say, just to clarify the point I am making about JBR not being killed within the Ramsey house. From all of the evidence we think we know, we have this picture in our minds of the R's as a happy family. They were at a Christmas Party all evening long with friends. On the way home that night they dropped off Christmas presents to other friends. JBR fell asleep on the way back and was carried upstairs and put to bed. Shortly afterwards JR and PR went to bed. They were going on a vacation in the morning. A perfectly normal scenario. A perfectly believable scenario for a family like them to have done exactly those things. We can believe it. We feel comfortable believing it. It fits our expectations of who the R's are. Let's call all of this 'Part A' for future reference.

But suddenly we have JBR ending up dead in a basement room with her skull bashed in and a garrott around her neck, rope around her wrists, probable taser marks on her body, etc. Let's call this 'Part B'.

I think we can all agree that 'Part B' is totally incongruous with 'Part A'. It does not fit with 'Part A'. It is a huge anomely. It boggles the mind to try to understand how 'part B' could have happened if you believe and accept that everything you think you know about 'Part A' is true. 'Part B' does not make any sense, relative to 'Part A', and no matter how many loops people try to jump through to make the two fit, they will never fit. Why? Because 'part A' is a lie. A fiction that was invented for you to believe so you would never be able to understand 'Part B'. 'Part B' is a fact. 'Part A' is an assumption.

What I and some others are saying is that there is a different story that we have never been told and it explains 'Part B'. That is what I am trying to uncover.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

My thought is that the post-party visits may have been a deception. Do the people in the houses the R's supposedly dropped off presents to report seeing JBR alive? Even if they do, it does not prove she was.

FW is not an innocent person, IMO. I consider him a conspirator, along with JR, PR, and others.

And I want to make it very clear that there was no secret intruder who broke into the Ramsey home to commit this crime. It must be realized that this is nothing but a cover story to hide what actually happened. So if you are thinking in terms of an intruder, you should stop and think again.

As I said, I know there is controversy about the NK story, but if it were true, don't you think there would be an effort to discredit it? She even said that they would try to discredit her and at they have been largely successful. Even so, I have carefully read her testimony and I was amazed. Her story has many parallels to this case and hint at a world that few of us imagine is possible, but it is in that very world where the JBR murder begins to make sense.

I just recently re-read the NK LE interview in total, and IMO the woman was a nut. I don't think anyone had to discredit her, because nothing in her wild fantasy story was the least bit believable or provable.

As an example, she talks about some letter her mother wrote in 1974 talking about "Uncle Johnny" (supposedly John Ramsey), and how lonely he was, and that she talked to him every day...he was coming to visit yada, yada. John Ramsey didn't even move to Boulder until 1991, and the Whites moved to Boulder in 1994. The Ramseys didn't know the White's prior to that, so where is the connection with John Ramsey? John Ramsey was living in Atlanta in 1974, and was married to his first wife. This woman was living in California, and although Fleet White also lived in California prior to moving to Boulder, the only time John Ramsey was ever in California was not long after his first marriage in 1966 when he was transferred there with the US Navy. As far as I know he never returned there.

There were so many inconsistencies in her story that it was completely unbelievable IMO.

A poster on Forums for Justice claimed that LE was already familiar with this nutcase because she contacted them so often about other cases that were in the news. I haven't been able to verify that with a source.

 

[Anyhoo]

I just recently re-read the NK LE interview in total, and IMO the woman was a nut. I don't think anyone had to discredit her, because nothing in her wild fantasy story was the least bit believable or provable.

As an example, she talks about some letter her mother wrote in 1974 talking about "Uncle Johnny" (supposedly John Ramsey), and how lonely he was, and that she talked to him every day...he was coming to visit yada, yada. John Ramsey didn't even move to Boulder until 1991, and the Whites moved to Boulder in 1994. The Ramseys didn't know the White's prior to that, so where is the connection with John Ramsey? John Ramsey was living in Atlanta in 1974, and was married to his first wife. This woman was living in California, and although Fleet White also lived in California prior to moving to Boulder, the only time John Ramsey was ever in California was not long after his first marriage in 1966 when he was transferred there with the US Navy. As far as I know he never returned there.

There were so many inconsistencies in her story that it was completely unbelievable IMO.

A poster on Forums for Justice claimed that LE was already familiar with this nutcase because she contacted them so often about other cases that were in the news. I haven't been able to verify that with a source.

I too have read NK's transcripts and I admit there are problems with them. She is obviously confusing the Johnny Ramsey she referred to (someone else) with JR in this case. I don't call her a nutcase though, and just because she was mistaken on some details does not mean her entire story is BS.

In any case, I don't base my theory on NK's testimony alone. Her testimony is just a starting point that leads in the direction of something bigger happening here than something that just involves the four members of the R family. As a theory, I am more comfortable with that than any of the four primary theories of JDI, PDI, BDI, or IDI. I just get a strong sense that there is something big being hidden from us here, and to get to the bottom of it, you have to step out of the R house. I sense she was killed outside of the house and only brought there later, after she was dead or dying.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

I too have read NK's transcripts and I admit there are problems with them. She is obviously confusing the Johnny Ramsey she referred to (someone else) with JR in this case. I don't call her a nutcase though, and just because she was mistaken on some details does not mean her entire story is BS.

In any case, I don't base my theory on NK's testimony alone. Her testimony is just a starting point that leads in the direction of something bigger happening here than something that just involves the four members of the R family. As a theory, I am more comfortable with that than any of the four primary theories of JDI, PDI, BDI, or IDI. I just get a strong sense that there is something big being hidden from us here, and to get to the bottom of it, you have to step out of the R house. I sense she was killed outside of the house and only brought there later, after she was dead or dying.

Anyhoo,

This case is so frustrating, and I completely understand what you're saying. If JonBenet was killed outside the home it would explain a lot of the missing pieces of this puzzle. Like the vague explanations PR and JR gave of their movements on Christmas day. How could anyone have that much amnesia? And what was the reason for PR and JR not coming clean about even the most innocent things that happened that day? If it was my child I would remember every single detail of every movement I made the last day they were alive.

I have a hard time buying into the theory that it was a big conspiracy between all these seemingly normal people though. Were all of their friends complicit in some kind of child sexual sadism thing? That's a lot to swallow. Perhaps (some of?) the people who were inadvertently involved in this tragedy know more than they are telling, but that explanation doesn't wash IMO. And the Ramsey's were more than happy to throw suspicion away from themselves. They made Fleet White's behaviour seem suspect, and named a LOT of innocent people on their "suspect" list. Maybe FW was just as disgusted with them as the rest of us became? IDK. I just keep hoping somebody will eventually talk, and this beautiful little girl will get some justice.

I don't buy NK's story though. Way too many holes. IMO she's just another looney like JMK. Attached herself to this tragedy because she's mentally unbalanced. JMHO.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

One more thing I would like to say, just to clarify the point I am making about JBR not being killed within the Ramsey house. From all of the evidence we think we know, we have this picture in our minds of the R's as a happy family. They were at a Christmas Party all evening long with friends. On the way home that night they dropped off Christmas presents to other friends. JBR fell asleep on the way back and was carried upstairs and put to bed. Shortly afterwards JR and PR went to bed. They were going on a vacation in the morning. A perfectly normal scenario. A perfectly believable scenario for a family like them to have done exactly those things. We can believe it. We feel comfortable believing it. It fits our expectations of who the R's are.

Anyhoo

I also agree with you on this. I don't think it was the "happy, happy" household that they made it seem. From what people close to them said, there were some problems between JR and PR and, according to the housekeeper (subject to believability), between PR and her children. Again, completely conflicting information coming from people on either side of the "Ramsey" camp.

The one that really puzzles me is Patsy Ramsey. She knew what happened, but when did she know? Was she involved in the murder? Were both her and John Ramsey sociopaths? How else could they perpetrate the murder and/or participate in such a horrific cover up?


I keep looking at how cold John Ramsey is though...in interviews...in his responses to LE in their interviews, and I have never seen him show any TRUE remorse for JonBenet's death. That's where I get my belief that he's the primary person responsible for her death (in my gut). MOST of us would be devastated by such a horrible thing done to our precious child; he shows very little care at all. He mouths the words, but the body language is all wrong.

 

[Anyhoo]

Anyhoo

I also agree with you on this. I don't think it was the "happy, happy" household that they made it seem. From what people close to them said, there were some problems between JR and PR and, according to the housekeeper (subject to believability), between PR and her children. Again, completely conflicting information coming from people on either side of the "Ramsey" camp.

The one that really puzzles me is Patsy Ramsey. She knew what happened, but when did she know? Was she involved in the murder? Were both her and John Ramsey sociopaths? How else could they perpetrate the murder and/or participate in such a horrific cover up?


I keep looking at how cold John Ramsey is though...in interviews...in his responses to LE in their interviews, and I have never seen him show any TRUE remorse for JonBenet's death. That's where I get my belief that he's the primary person responsible for her death (in my gut). MOST of us would be devastated by such a horrible thing done to our precious child; he shows very little care at all. He mouths the words, but the body language is all wrong.

I agree that PR knew, but to answer your question about when she knew I don't know. Being able to answer that question would make a lot of pieces of the puzzle fall into place.

The only way that I see PR being directly involved in the murder is if she, as other people have theorized, flew into some unexpected rage and hit her daughter on the head with something causing the skull fracture. That is a big "IF" for me. Otherwise I see her indirectly involved in the murder of her daughter, as in allowing something to happen (that she should not of) and her daughter dying unexpectedly during whatever that was.

Were both JR and PR sociopaths? I would say yes, even if they were not directly involved in the death of their daughter. At the very least they knew what really happened, but to go before the nation and lie and pretend they didn't know what happen with a straight face, you would pretty much have to be a sociopath. So I say yes, they were. But, you see, that leads directly to my other theory, where these people are not who they appear to be at all. Because normal people could not do what they did. It would not even enter into the minds of normal people to do what they did. So JR and PR appeared to be normal people but they were far from normal. And this leads directly back to my original theory of this being about some bigger secret than just the death of JBR. Do you see what I am saying?

You may consider NK a nut, but I have read other accounts of people discussing just this kind of thing, where people pretend to be normal in public, but in private they are involved in evil secretive things. In other words, they are living double lives. That is the sense I get about JR and PR, is that they were leading double lives. On the surface they appeared to be kind, loving parents who were doing all the right things. That is the only picture we have been given of them. But who were they really? Who were they in private? They were obviously very good actors, but when something happened to their daughter that they did not expect, they went into defense mode. They reverted back to who they really were and they did what they had to do to protect themselves (and I believe others).

I am talking about them being involved in something very secretive and underground, and I believe they had JBR involved it in also. When JBR died (accidently I believe) it threatened to expose this secretive underground thing. That thing had to protected and kept secret at all cost, no matter who ultimately was blamed for JBR's death. JBR's death, as bad as it was, was secondary in importance to maintaining secrecy. It is scary to think about, but it fits. It makes this murder makes sense in a way that no other explanation I have heard of does.

 

[Anyhoo]

Anyhoo

I also agree with you on this. I don't think it was the "happy, happy" household that they made it seem. From what people close to them said, there were some problems between JR and PR and, according to the housekeeper (subject to believability), between PR and her children. Again, completely conflicting information coming from people on either side of the "Ramsey" camp.

The one that really puzzles me is Patsy Ramsey. She knew what happened, but when did she know? Was she involved in the murder? Were both her and John Ramsey sociopaths? How else could they perpetrate the murder and/or participate in such a horrific cover up?


I keep looking at how cold John Ramsey is though...in interviews...in his responses to LE in their interviews, and I have never seen him show any TRUE remorse for JonBenet's death. That's where I get my belief that he's the primary person responsible for her death (in my gut). MOST of us would be devastated by such a horrible thing done to our precious child; he shows very little care at all. He mouths the words, but the body language is all wrong.

Repeat post. Please disregard.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

I agree that PR knew, but to answer your question about when she knew I don't know. Being able to answer that question would make a lot of pieces of the puzzle fall into place.

The only way that I see PR being directly involved in the murder is if she, as other people have theorized, flew into some unexpected rage and hit her daughter on the head with something causing the skull fracture. That is a big "IF" for me. Otherwise I see her indirectly involved in the murder of her daughter, as in allowing something to happen (that she should not of) and her daughter dying unexpectedly during whatever that was.

Were both JR and PR sociopaths? I would say yes, even if they were not directly involved in the death of their daughter. At the very least they knew what really happened, but to go before the nation and lie and pretend they didn't know what happen with a straight face, you would pretty much have to be a sociopath. So I say yes, they were. But, you see, that leads directly to my other theory, where these people are not who they appear to be at all. Because normal people could not do what they did. It would not even enter into the minds of normal people to do what they did. So JR and PR appeared to be normal people but they were far from normal. And this leads directly back to my original theory of this being about some bigger secret than just the death of JBR. Do you see what I am saying?

You may consider NK a nut, but I have read other accounts of people discussing just this kind of thing, where people pretend to be normal in public, but in private they are involved in evil secretive things. In other words, they are living double lives. That is the sense I get about JR and PR, is that they were leading double lives. On the surface they appeared to be kind, loving parents who were doing all the right things. That is the only picture we have been given of them. But who were they really? Who were they in private? They were obviously very good actors, but when something happened to their daughter that they did not expect, they went into defense mode. They reverted back to who they really were and they did what they had to do to protect themselves (and I believe others).

I am talking about them being involved in something very secretive and underground, and I believe they had JBR involved it in also. When JBR died (accidently I believe) it threatened to expose this secretive underground thing. That thing had to protected and kept secret at all cost, no matter who ultimately was blamed for JBR's death. JBR's death, as bad as it was, was secondary in importance to maintaining secrecy. It is scary to think about, but it fits. It makes this murder makes sense in a way that no other explanation I have heard of does.

Sorry Anyhoo, but I just can't go down that road. There are too many documented cases of fathers molesting their daughters. It happens all the time. Maybe PR just loved the lavish and "high profile" life she lived, and couldn't bear to give up the truth and tear all that down. I respect your theory and your opinions though, and appreciate you listening to my point of view.

:gthanks:

 

[Anyhoo]

Sorry Anyhoo, but I just can't go down that road. There are too many documented cases of fathers molesting their daughters. It happens all the time. Maybe PR just loved the lavish and "high profile" life she lived, and couldn't bear to give up the truth and tear all that down. I respect your theory and your opinions though, and appreciate you listening to my point of view.

:gthanks:

Can I ask you how you explain the presence of DNA under JBR's fingernails that does not match with any of the family members in the house? It is very likely that JBR scratched the face of her killer as he was killing her, but that person is not JR or PR or BR.

I know you don't want to go down this road, but take a look at the following link while keeping an open mind:

http://svalispeaks.wordpress.com/2008/09/16/christmas-in-the-cult/

 

[dodie20]

If JBR was killed somewhere else, why in the world would her parents take her home and use items from the house, that pointed right back at them? No way, IMO, would parents cover up the murder of their child, by setting themselves up. No matter what happened that night, and no matter what chain of events led up to that night, I fully believe that murder was out of the ordinary, and the idea of the Rs being involved with some kind of sadistic pedophile group, is just unbelievable. And the idea of FW being involved, is even more unbelievable. IMO, items from the house were used in the murder and coverup, because that house is where the murder and coverup occurred. Sometimes, thinking outside the box can be a good thing, but most of the time, things are exactly as they seem. JBR was an abused little girl, and that abuse led to murder, IMO.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

Can I ask you how you explain the presence of DNA under JBR's fingernails that does not match with any of the family members in the house? It is very likely that JBR scratched the face of her killer as he was killing her, but that person is not JR or PR or BR.

I know you don't want to go down this road, but take a look at the following link while keeping an open mind:

http://svalispeaks.wordpress.com/2008/09/16/christmas-in-the-cult/

Sorry, one word for that link - hogwash. I do have an open mind, but seriously, now the R's were part of a cult?

As far as the DNA under JB's fingernails, it was a minute amount and was fairly degraded. Not what I would expect if she scratched her killer's face). The CSI Oxford has this to say about DNA.... "the thing about DNA evidence, strong as it is, large as it looms in the public's imagination, is that it connects a human and an object. It doesn't prove when the two came into contact. Nor does it necessarily prove they were actually in direct contact at all."

 

[Anyhoo]

Sorry, one word for that link - hogwash. I do have an open mind, but seriously, now the R's were part of a cult?

As far as the DNA under JB's fingernails, it was a minute amount and was fairly degraded. Not what I would expect if she scratched her killer's face). The CSI Oxford has this to say about DNA.... "the thing about DNA evidence, strong as it is, large as it looms in the public's imagination, is that it connects a human and an object. It doesn't prove when the two came into contact. Nor does it necessarily prove they were actually in direct contact at all."

Before you could consider that the R's were part of a cult, you would have to believe that such a thing were possible. You obviously don't and I am not trying to convince you. What I am trying to do is to keep an open mind about this and consider that possibility and to look at how that possibility matches this case. If you won't look at it, hopefully someone else reading this post will consider it.

As for the DNA evidence, its a lot stronger than you suggest. Do research on recent developments in the case. The new DA recently apologized to JR for the BPD accusing him after they found a tenth DNA marker that excluded him from being the person behind the DNA. So you have an unknown stranger's DNA under JBR's fingernails and possibly the same DNA found in her underpants that may have come from a cough or sneeze from the same person. Either way, there is something there and you cannot just dismiss it and pretend it does not exist.

 

[DeeDee249]

Can I ask you how you explain the presence of DNA under JBR's fingernails that does not match with any of the family members in the house? It is very likely that JBR scratched the face of her killer as he was killing her, but that person is not JR or PR or BR.

I know you don't want to go down this road, but take a look at the following link while keeping an open mind:

http://svalispeaks.wordpress.com/2008/09/16/christmas-in-the-cult/

I can't believe ANYONE is still taking that DNA seriously. The coroner used UNSTERILE clippers on her nails. He ADMITTED this. That DNA has to be completely discounted. It could belong to the previous corpse the coroner autopsied. There is NO evidence whatsoever that JB scratched anyone. None. There was NO blood under her nails.