Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[SapphireSteel]

I've thought from Day #1 it was Burke, and I continue to think so to this day.

LOL

I look at PR and all I see is a psychopath who suffered Munchausens by Proxy.

:dunno:

What are the main reasons you're BDI?

 

[Bonnette]

I look at PR and all I see is a psychopath who suffered Munchausens by Proxy.

But wait...no one here stated that BR is autistic or has Asperger's; it was observed that his behavior is interesting from that standpoint, and seems similar in some ways.

Yet here, you express your impression that PR is a psychopath with Munchausen's-by-Proxy. How is this definitive statement of your view of Patsy any less objectionable than some members' more circumspect ruminations about BR?

(Edited to add: I think it is important to underscore that in speculating about the autistic spectrum as it might apply to BR, one is discussing behavior - a very different thing from addressing his character or referring to him as a psychopath with a specific derangement, as has been done here with regard to PR.)

 

[Bonnie Blue]

You don't believe they lied to protect themselves as both were guilty?

I can hear Patsy saying..."you have to help cover, I know what else you did".

:moo:

Nope, never have thought that. I also wonder if JB didn't get most of the attention with the whole beauty pageant thing. I think he was probably jealous of her and what happened was the result of that. JMO.

 

[SapphireSteel]

But wait...no one here stated that BR is autistic or has Asperger's; it was observed that his behavior is interesting from that standpoint, and seems similar in some ways.

Yet here, you express your impression that PR is a psychopath with Munchausen's-by-Proxy. How is this definitive statement of your view of Patsy any less objectionable than some members' more circumspect ruminations about BR?

(Edited to add: I think it is important to underscore that in speculating about the autistic spectrum as it might apply to BR, one is discussing behavior - a very different thing from addressing his character or diagnosing him as a psychopath with a specific derangement, as has been done here with regard to PR.)

You do get that I was in no way disrespecting anyone's opinion on Burke's behaviour, just adding my personal impressions, right?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Nope, never have thought that. I also wonder if JB didn't get most of the attention with the whole beauty pageant thing. I think he was probably jealous of her and what happened was the result of that. JMO.

I've read PR's official statement (which LE took days to get), and I believe that Burke actually WAS the apple of their eye and JBR was somehow, a scapegoat.

It's nothing in particular she said, just the entire tone. For example, she was Burke this, Burke that, mentioned playing with Burke and doing things Burke wanted to do (before the murder), but barely mentioned JBR's name. She would often just refer to her as "she".

Wierd.

People are thinking I'm anti BDI, I actually know very little about the whole BDI train of thought which is why I'm asking. I'm trying to sleuth info not critique it.

:dunno:


:moo:

 

[dodie20]

JonBenet 911 call FULL (high quality with subtitles) - YouTube

Turn the volume way up and you'll hear it. It's not real clear what she"s saying, but with the advantage of knowing what to listen for you'll hear it.

I just listened over and over, and to my ear, PR is either saying, 'probably knew' (new), or 'how we knew'. Because of the syllables and inflections, I'm leaning a little towards 'probably', but it's a toss up, IMO.

 

[Bonnette]

You do get that I was in no way disrespecting anyone's opinion on Burke's behaviour, just adding my personal impressions, right?

My point was that, in reporting others' speculation about the cause of BR's behavior to moderators, one paints oneself with the same brush by expressing rather more sharply diagnostic impressions of PR.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I think you misunderstood my point.

If you go over to any active case thread right now and mention family members you will be banned.

Here it's ok, and I'm not sure why. I was asking the question really of the moderators, I have pm'd as well though. I don't want to get banned again, it's got nothing to do with anything else.

Burke has NEVER been named by LE as a suspect or POI, on other threads even discussing a family member like this would result in a three day ban.

The debate doesn't offend me :dunno: either way the boards here to share opinions, not attacking other posters.

^^^THIS is what I said. I asked the mods to CLARIFY the TOS for me.

Nothing about reporting anyone :doh:

 

[Bonnette]

Thank you for explaining that, I misunderstood and apologize.

 

[txsvicki]

From being a kid myself and bein g around quite a few almost ten year olds i definitely know that they are capable of extreme empathy and fear about intruders, cops., and a missing sister. To only register knowledge that they would be tied up all day and miss a fun trip is not right. That and wondering if a watch is expensive. How did he know they would miss the trip with such a previously calm and cop free life.

 

[hetty]

Yes it is, I loved that show.

Re Burkes behaviour and Aspergers -

I believe the most simple explanation for his odd affect, withdrawal and body language is the fact that he was a smart boy growing up in a life of hell, and he had simply learned to "shut it down".

I believe his ability to do this is still apparent even now, with the adult Burke's refusal to speak. Just ignore it and it's not there. I wonder where he learnt that.

His affect was bored, uninterested, apparently largely unaffected by the mess that was unfolding around him. Remember, this child was never removed from that home. He was under complete control and influence of his parents all the way through. He may merely have been displaying "survival" behaviour - after all, he saw what happened when his sister acted up.

The sum total of his counselling was one visit with a child psych (Patsy didn't even go, she sent him with the housekeeper), who said he appeared completely bored and slightly annoyed with having to talk, until mention of his sister, when he almost curled into a fetal position and basically refused to speak.

That sounds like a traumatised child in denial and still living with his abusers, to me...not Aspergers.

:dunno:

Those are great points SapphireSteel, thank you, sincerely.

 

[Chris_Texas]

Obviously Burke COULD have killed his sister. If he did it might have been an accident or deliberate. There is no evidence to suggest that he did kill her, and a fair amount to suggest that he did not.

In answer to the previous question a few posts above this one:

In other cases we absolutely discuss the family -- particularly if the evidence points in that direction. And this only makes sense; statistically the family is the most likely culprit.

In this particular case not only is there absolutely NO evidence of an intruder, but it actually requires a rather fanciful imagination to concoct a scenario (that explains the known evidence) that even allows for this possibility. And even such a scenario requires that one ignore the statements and behavior of the Ramseys, the scientific evidence of prior abuse, and even the condition of the home itself. Further, it requires us to ignore all the many years that have passed since that day... years without any further evidence of this foreign terrorist faction, years without anyone else anywhere following this same ludicrous technique.

Just as we can discuss the imaginary babysitter Casey Anthony invented, we can discuss an imaginary intruder here. But in both cases there isn't a whole lot to say, and there is no sense saying it. If we cannot talk about the people that the evidence points to then there is nothing to talk about at all.

 

[sandover]

Also supporting docg/chrishope:

Remember how Linda Arndt connected with PR shortly before PR's death? There were some very cryptic comments from LA that only make sense if JDI. If you combine her cryptic comments with her initial gut feeling that JDI, I think we have even further evidence supporting the JDI scenario.

Article is excerpted here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-40840.html

 

[sandover]

Question: how does the pineapple fit into the JDI theory?

Do we just assume that Burke and JB were up after Patsy went to bed and Burke got the snack for the two of them?

If that's the case, perhaps Burke knows "something" somewhere in his heart about what happened that night... perhaps he wasn't totally asleep when JDI.

 

[BOESP]

Question: how does the pineapple fit into the JDI theory?

Do we just assume that Burke and JB were up after Patsy went to bed and Burke got the snack for the two of them?

If that's the case, perhaps Burke knows "something" somewhere in his heart about what happened that night... perhaps he wasn't totally asleep when JDI.

The pineapple, in my opinion, fits with any theory. It's importance is that it proves JonBenet was awake as opposed to both adult Ramseys originally stating that she was asleep, and by inference, asleep until an Intruder killed her.

They also stated she would never go downstairs for a snack in the dark by herself and she would never go with a stranger...she would have screamed bloody murder.

A neighbor(s) reported seeing strange lights in the kitchen about midnight or thereabouts. Why not just turn on the light if you were going down to eat a snack? Flashlights are used when a) no other light is available b) if you are skulking around hoping no one will notice.

 

[Chrishope]

Also supporting docg/chrishope:

Remember how Linda Arndt connected with PR shortly before PR's death? There were some very cryptic comments from LA that only make sense if JDI. If you combine her cryptic comments with her initial gut feeling that JDI, I think we have even further evidence supporting the JDI scenario.

Article is excerpted here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-40840.html

It's interesting that she says 90% of the case details have not been reported accurately.

 

[Unreals]

I started out as PDI, influenced heavily by her public demeanor, actions that morning, and later ST's book. Gradually, however, I leaned towards BDI. I think the revelations in Kolar's book buttress this belief.

It should be obvious to everyone at this point that there was something exceedingly wrong in that family. The new info about smeared feces just affirms this. We know that Social Services had some sort of previous history with Burke. We also know he had hit JBR with a golf club. It's very likely that he was jealous of the overt attention JBR received. Burke's unusual comments when interviewed by the psychiatrist ("going on with my life," no emotion displayed, putting something on his head and making noises when a certain question was asked, etc.) also reinforce my view that he was not a "normal" child by even the broadest definition.

Kolar's book may possibly light the way to a true understanding of what really happened that night. I haven't read the book yet- does he address the incredible oddity of there being only a couple of photos taken Christmas day, and no videotape of the children? Whatever that means, I've always felt it's significant and may strongly indicate that JBR's death wasn't entirely spontaneous. There seems to have been existing problems in that household.

What I do find strange, in light of my BDI theory, is how "normal" the adult Burke appears to be. A clearly troubled child, seemingly involved in the death of his sister in some way, and years later he seems well adjusted, with friends, girlfriends, social life, etc. That's hard to explain.

 

[Bonnette]

Kolar's book may possibly light the way to a true understanding of what really happened that night. I haven't read the book yet- does he address the incredible oddity of there being only a couple of photos taken Christmas day, and no videotape of the children? Whatever that means, I've always felt it's significant and may strongly indicate that JBR's death wasn't entirely spontaneous. There seems to have been existing problems in that household.

What I do find strange, in light of my BDI theory, is how "normal" the adult Burke appears to be. A clearly troubled child, seemingly involved in the death of his sister in some way, and years later he seems well adjusted, with friends, girlfriends, social life, etc. That's hard to explain.

I don't recall the lack of Christmas photos/videos being discussed in Kolar's book, but maybe he did and it just didn't register on me. I hope that in the future, if there is a second edition of the book, there will be an index - it's very hard to remember where each bit of of evidence and supposition is discussed.

Kolar has tried repeatedly to get hold of Burke's medical records, to no avail. BR was seeing a psychiatrist regularly after the murder, and possibly before - he could have been getting therapy throughout his life, and indeed I would be surprised if John and Patsy hadn't sought every conceivable means to ensure a normal life for Burke. If BDI, he might have been reacting to a particular chemistry and set of circumstances in the household at the time, and not been driven in similar ways ever again. The records are sealed and we'll probably never know if he carried a particular diagnosis, or what the aim of his therapy was.

 

[sandover]

I don't recall the lack of Christmas photos/videos being discussed in Kolar's book, but maybe he did and it just didn't register on me. I hope that in the future, if there is a second edition of the book, there will be an index - it's very hard to remember where each bit of of evidence and supposition is discussed.

The lack of Christmas photos/videos also backs up docg and chrishope. If JR knew he was going to be murdering JB soon, he would have avoided photographing her both for evidentiary reasons as well as due to the guilt and pain it might have confronted him with.

Further, JR's bizarre actions on the 26th all make sense in light of JDI.

 

[DeeDee249]

I started out as PDI, influenced heavily by her public demeanor, actions that morning, and later ST's book. Gradually, however, I leaned towards BDI. I think the revelations in Kolar's book buttress this belief.

It should be obvious to everyone at this point that there was something exceedingly wrong in that family. The new info about smeared feces just affirms this. We know that Social Services had some sort of previous history with Burke. We also know he had hit JBR with a golf club. It's very likely that he was jealous of the overt attention JBR received. Burke's unusual comments when interviewed by the psychiatrist ("going on with my life," no emotion displayed, putting something on his head and making noises when a certain question was asked, etc.) also reinforce my view that he was not a "normal" child by even the broadest definition.

Kolar's book may possibly light the way to a true understanding of what really happened that night. I haven't read the book yet- does he address the incredible oddity of there being only a couple of photos taken Christmas day, and no videotape of the children? Whatever that means, I've always felt it's significant and may strongly indicate that JBR's death wasn't entirely spontaneous. There seems to have been existing problems in that household.

What I do find strange, in light of my BDI theory, is how "normal" the adult Burke appears to be. A clearly troubled child, seemingly involved in the death of his sister in some way, and years later he seems well adjusted, with friends, girlfriends, social life, etc. That's hard to explain.

Not that hard to explain if you think about it. Whatever BR's childhood issues, Aspergers's,, etc., I do not believe he was a psychopath. This was an event that went horribly wrong. Some things (like Aspergers) do tend to be less obvious as the child grows. A young man I know with Asperger's was much more obvious in grade school than he is now as a doctoral candidate. He has had some friends, has had girlfriends, even in high school. It is much less obvious now to those who did not know him as a child, though I am sure he is considered quirky.
BR dodged a bullet. WHEW! That's how he feels (and his parents felt too). He will never open that door again- and some people are very good at compartmentalizing. Asperger's would be an asset there. Over the years, it has been pushed so far back in the mind that it stays there. And then, there is a well-known phenomena that occurs when someone tells a lie so often they actually believe it. It becomes THEIR truth, their reality.
Also, children will often recall an event from their childhood the way they have been TOLD it happened, and not necessarily the way it really happened. BR may have been so indoctrinated by his parents that he has very different memories.