Nehemiah
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Camper always said the scarf buried with JB was the smoking gun.
Known rope in the house
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sorry but harking back to the torture mechanic and the headwound: how would this relate to the ransom note? Like this:
if you do what we say there is a 99 per cent chance she will die (because she has been bashed over the head and needs attention and is in a bit of a predicament which prevents her from moving)
If you call the police there is a 100 per cent chance she will die (because someone will cause her to squirm pulling the noose tight around her neck and making sure)
Total control freak.
if you do what we say there is a 99 per cent chance she will die (because she has been bashed over the head and needs attention and is in a bit of a predicament which prevents her from moving)
If you call the police there is a 100 per cent chance she will die (because someone will cause her to squirm pulling the noose tight around her neck and making sure)
Total control freak.
That's a question that cannot be definitively answered, since even the sequence of injuries is open to interpretation and the markings on JB's neck didn't necessarily arise from the same set of incidents. It is widely assumed that the head bash preceded strangulation, but medical experts in 1996 disagreed as to the sequence of injuries, and they still do. Even Werner Spitz (as recounted in PMPT) has stated that he could not be certain about what actually caused JB's death, i.e. strangulation or head bash. In addition, throttling or partial hanging might have been performed on more than one occasion on the night of JB's death, within a relatively short timespan.
I wish that JB's body had been exhumed, and that experienced MEs like Cyril Wecht had been allowed to look at her actual injuries, instead of photos; the white line on JB's neck might have been either enhanced or diminished by poor photographic or lighting conditions.
(Edited to add: It has always bothered me that we don't know a great deal about Dr. Meyer's qualifications and level of experience (or maybe we do, and I have not encountered or remembered the info in my reading - in which case the fault is mine). Since even "high profile" MEs who routinely investigate bizarre deaths disagree on the witness stand all the time, I am extremely reluctant to unquestioningly accept Dr. M's conclusions about JB's autopsy. Her death was multifactorial, and MEs could probably argue cause of death and sequence of injuries until the cows come home. Speaking of which...:moo
midwest mama
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Thanks txsvicki - saw some of your posts on the other thread. You must be an avid sleuther and really want to see some justice for JB to be staying around and asking questions all these years!
I wonder why, if the scarf was maybe a 'last gift' from JB, John would have wanted to part with it. I'd treasure the last gift my child gave me. And that the comment made by Patsy was: "he tucked it around her like a blanket of love", also seems to ring bells for me. Since JB was found in her blanket with it kind of 'tucked' up around her legs, "like a papoose"
I think JR said.
Patsy said they bought red and black scarves to give out as gifts at the Dec 23 party to the men, and didn't know if the one on the counter was one of those or not. So, that scarf must have been red and black. And if they bought multiples to give as gifts, maybe they would have had synthetics in them? I purchased a scarf 2 years ago that was made with synthetics for around $50 (only because I had a gift certificate and wanted to treat myself), so as multiple gifts, I'd think a scarf they gave could have had synthetics in it? :moo:
Yes. When we bury loved ones with objects snuggled next to them, the items are not chosen at random; they are truly and deeply meaningful in some way, either to the one in the casket or to the one burying the deceased...or both.
Excellent observation.
There are so many reasons John may have chosen that scarf for his daughter. Perhaps she asked for one of the scarves which were intended as gifts and was told she could have one if there were any left and John felt bad later for not having just saying yes straightaway. Maybe the perp was someone who received one of these gifts. Maybe the scarf was nothing to do with the case at all.
I buried my partner in a brand new tailor made suit; why the hell I would do this I have no idea, because he never wore suits - I think his friends suggested it and I just said OK. I put stuff in his coffin; why did I do that? Jeez I don't believe in an after life. I don't know why I did those things. I paid for an expensive casket, which is completely irrational when the living need the money more than the dead. I put pictures of his mum and dad in with him; I have no idea why; I put in a deck of cards because he liked to play blackjack and poker.. wtf???
Some behaviour is indicative of personality traits or in this case of guilt; I can't understand people seeing as this as an act of guilt.
If someone accidentally murdered their child (and this was no accident) there are better ways to lose the evidence than to bury it like that.
Plus then if it was one of a group of scarves given as gifts then you would have to prove which was which and whose was whose - so calling for an exhumation does not help. Maybe asking John about the scarf might put your minds at rest though.
otg
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Before going on with the discussion on hanging, I think we should talk a little about skin blanching so we completely understand it. Everyone is familiar with it whether they know it or not.
Apply pressure (like a finger poke) to the skin of a living person and it turns white, very briefly, in the area that received the pressure. When the pressure is removed, the color returns. The reason this happens is that when you press on the skin, you force the blood out of the capillaries and the skin turns white. This is what blanching is. When skin is blanched, it takes on a whitish appearance because blood flow to the region has been prevented. If circulation is normal, the capillary blood comes back instantly and skin color returns. This phenomenon is called perfusion -- the process of delivery of blood to a capillary bed in the biological tissue.
But if the blood return is sluggish, the skin stays white for several seconds and can indicate poor blood circulation. Blanching of the skin is usually a localized reaction and may be a sign that the skin tissue is not receiving its usual blood supply (poor circulation), and may be due to swelling, cold, or other problems.
When I was much younger, I was told about a girl my family knew who was tested in her doctors office for this. I was told that the doctor was able to demonstrate to the girls mother the problem by writing with his finger the first letter of her name (M for Mary) on her chest, and it remained visible for as long as it took to finish the letter. I dont know exactly what the problem was with the girl, but it was probably due to some sort of circulatory problem -- hypovolemia, meaning low blood volume.
So when we talk about blanching, thats all it is -- an area of skin that has turned paler than the rest of the persons skin due to pressure which has caused evacuation of the capillary blood.
When a person is deceased, there is no circulation of blood. So something causing pressure on the skin will displace the capillary blood, and when the pressure is removed, it remains pallid, or blanched. Since after a certain amount of time, the blood becomes fixed (that is, pressure will not cause the blood to be evacuated), blanching will not occur. (Since I am not a medical type person, DeeDee can explain much better than I could about why this happens.) While not very accurate because of so many influencing factors, this can be used to a certain extent to approximate a TOD window (albeit a very large window).
One more thing worth mentioning is that, like other responses that are associated with perimortem or postmortem phenomena, blanching can occur antemortem to a lesser degree in cases of slow death (remember, death is a process) or because of any other reason causing a slowdown of blood circulation.
.
Apply pressure (like a finger poke) to the skin of a living person and it turns white, very briefly, in the area that received the pressure. When the pressure is removed, the color returns. The reason this happens is that when you press on the skin, you force the blood out of the capillaries and the skin turns white. This is what blanching is. When skin is blanched, it takes on a whitish appearance because blood flow to the region has been prevented. If circulation is normal, the capillary blood comes back instantly and skin color returns. This phenomenon is called perfusion -- the process of delivery of blood to a capillary bed in the biological tissue.
But if the blood return is sluggish, the skin stays white for several seconds and can indicate poor blood circulation. Blanching of the skin is usually a localized reaction and may be a sign that the skin tissue is not receiving its usual blood supply (poor circulation), and may be due to swelling, cold, or other problems.
When I was much younger, I was told about a girl my family knew who was tested in her doctors office for this. I was told that the doctor was able to demonstrate to the girls mother the problem by writing with his finger the first letter of her name (M for Mary) on her chest, and it remained visible for as long as it took to finish the letter. I dont know exactly what the problem was with the girl, but it was probably due to some sort of circulatory problem -- hypovolemia, meaning low blood volume.
So when we talk about blanching, thats all it is -- an area of skin that has turned paler than the rest of the persons skin due to pressure which has caused evacuation of the capillary blood.
When a person is deceased, there is no circulation of blood. So something causing pressure on the skin will displace the capillary blood, and when the pressure is removed, it remains pallid, or blanched. Since after a certain amount of time, the blood becomes fixed (that is, pressure will not cause the blood to be evacuated), blanching will not occur. (Since I am not a medical type person, DeeDee can explain much better than I could about why this happens.) While not very accurate because of so many influencing factors, this can be used to a certain extent to approximate a TOD window (albeit a very large window).
One more thing worth mentioning is that, like other responses that are associated with perimortem or postmortem phenomena, blanching can occur antemortem to a lesser degree in cases of slow death (remember, death is a process) or because of any other reason causing a slowdown of blood circulation.
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I too wondered why JR would part with a gift from JB. Wouldn't it have had sentimental value for him, not her? If I was in that position, I would cherish it forever. This is weird, but I'm not sure much can be read into it. If JR was anywhere near as aloof as has been reported, he may not have associated many things with JB, and since she had recently given the scarf to him, he made the connection? moo
Yes.
Imo the stager thought that the more bizarre and heinous the scene looked, the less likely LE would get the idea that JonBenet had been the victim of a domestic homicide followed by familial cover-up.Great!...Now,
Question #1. Why would the 'stager' who's already ties the knot tightly (oxygen supply is off, JBR is death in 5-10 seconds) would need to add an additional 'garotte'-like stuff? Does it add more 'torture' feeling to it? If your answer is YES then I have...
Question #2. Please tell me what kind of MIND the 'stager' should have to feel that STRANGULATION is not 'torturess' enough...hence need to add more elements of 'torture' like 'garotte'?? If your answer is SICK MIND then (guess what?
Since the head blow came first, (see Kolar's book about the forensic details), JonBenet was already in a coma nearing death when the cord was put around her neck.
Since 40 minutes to two hours elapsed between the head blow and the strangulation, it is logical to assume that both the neck cord and the wooden stick were part of a staged scene. ('Staging' btw can also, in some cases, include that a homicide is committed).
Scenes are staged to conceal certain facts from the investigators of the crime. That's why looking "in the opposite direction" often leads investigators to the truth.
The Ramsey crime scene we have
- a 'ransom note' which was no real ransom note.
- a 'kidnapping' which was no real kidnapping.
- A 'garrote' which was no real garrote.
- Duct tape which was not used to silence a victim, but applied after death.
- Loosely tied wrist ligatures which could not have restrained a victim.
- A cord tied around the neck which could not have tortured a conscious person because the victim was in a deep coma from the head blow.
- An acute perimortem genital injury which could not have tortured a conscious person because the victim was in deep coma from the head blow, nearing death.
Imo this reveals all these elements as belonging to a staged scene arranged to cover up that a family member was actively involved in JonBenet's violent death from a fatal head injury.
midwest mama
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:hand:Sorry, dodie20, I can't buy into JR tucking a scarf around JB as some sort of 'connection'. There was also talk that JR had purchased the scarf himself, maybe even as a gift for JB, but didn't give it to her at Christmas. Why not? If JR purchased the scarf for himself, why did he feel the need to wrap it around JB? You're right - weird!
CNN timeline says Ramseys flew to Atlanta on the 29th for JB's funeral.
There were 300 guests and family at a visitation on the 30th, and the funeral itself was the 31st.
It seems nearly impossible that JR would have been able to shop for a scarf anytime from the 29th. So, if he bought it himself, he had to bring it with him from Boulder, and would have had to shop for it himself in Boulder also, probably at least before Christmas. So, maybe it was one of the personal items that Pam Paugh retrieved to give to them.
If he had wanted to give it to JB as a gift, and didn't and then felt bad, I can't believe he would have tucked it around her like a blanket, circumventing Patsy's lovely display of her in her pageant finery, with 2 crowns in the coffin.
That even begs more consideration, with a 2nd crown in her hands, might the scarf have been tucked around her neck, as some others surmise, to help cover up the neck wounds? Maybe they just couldn't stand looking at them. But Patsy said it was like a "blanket of love".
Now, If I were burying my child, and wanted to send something along with them, other than one of their special toys, I just can't see myself sending a gift they had just given me for Christmas, or an article of clothing that has NO correlation to anything related in her life's activities.
Weird - a scarf. And if it was evidence that might have been gotten rid of in another easier way, we have to remember how bizarre this whole crime was, and if that scarf was used in what one of those parents thought was a 'love connection' during the crime, then maybe, just maybe they had a hard time parting with it until they absolutely had to, and then thought it a final act of love to put it with the object of their affection, especially since it would also be a riddance of evidence!
No matter how heinous or innocent putting that scarf in the coffin was, it is totally as bizarre as anything else related to the JB crime. :moo:
is it possible JonBenet is sitting or standing while her wrists are crossed in front of her and the loops apploed to the wrists and the intervening string applied to the paintbrush; the string goes between her legs and is brought up towards her neck from behind. She is then hit over the head to make her unconscious (or in the hope of making her unconscious) then the loop is made around the neck and adjusted to exactly the right size to allow her some breath if she does not move. If she moves even while approaching death and while in a state of body shock some blanching lines appear, perhaps as she moves her hands and thus pulls against the device.
After she has died, just after she has died or just as she dies, perhaps in one final effort to remove the device and the paintbrush snaps causing the injury to her genitals, she is wiped down because someone moves her body away and does not want to leave the blood trail and the movement creates the new ligature mark/result as she is found.
This proves premeditation and intent to kill from the outset. This means the headblow was potentially to make the death "easier" for the victim while buying time for the perpetrator.
This means the ransom note was staged to either buy time or to fool Burke into believing the kidnap was genuine:
"someone has done this to JonBenet for a bad reason; we tried to help but it is too late and if we say anything we will be implicated so we should say nothing."
Burke is not guilty but knows more than he has said. "Where did you find the body" indicating she was moved and he knew she was moved.
Obviously this premeditated act of murder was not done by either parent but by someone known to Burke caught in the house by Burke who has thought and acted quickly.
After she has died, just after she has died or just as she dies, perhaps in one final effort to remove the device and the paintbrush snaps causing the injury to her genitals, she is wiped down because someone moves her body away and does not want to leave the blood trail and the movement creates the new ligature mark/result as she is found.
This proves premeditation and intent to kill from the outset. This means the headblow was potentially to make the death "easier" for the victim while buying time for the perpetrator.
This means the ransom note was staged to either buy time or to fool Burke into believing the kidnap was genuine:
"someone has done this to JonBenet for a bad reason; we tried to help but it is too late and if we say anything we will be implicated so we should say nothing."
Burke is not guilty but knows more than he has said. "Where did you find the body" indicating she was moved and he knew she was moved.
Obviously this premeditated act of murder was not done by either parent but by someone known to Burke caught in the house by Burke who has thought and acted quickly.
If the duct tape was added after death then this was because the perp had to continue with the kidnap scenario.
Is it possible if the whole kidnap scenario was done for Burke's benefit because he had seen something or found JonBenet and the perp acted like he had just shown up and pretended to try to secure the child's release from the device thus killing her and causing the accidental genital wound which was cleaned up and which the perp said they had best keep quiet about lest they become accused themselves and the perp writes to note to fool Burke that he has just found it and the perp may even add the duct tape after he tells Burke to get to bed while he checks around and so Burke trusts this person.
Is it possible if the whole kidnap scenario was done for Burke's benefit because he had seen something or found JonBenet and the perp acted like he had just shown up and pretended to try to secure the child's release from the device thus killing her and causing the accidental genital wound which was cleaned up and which the perp said they had best keep quiet about lest they become accused themselves and the perp writes to note to fool Burke that he has just found it and the perp may even add the duct tape after he tells Burke to get to bed while he checks around and so Burke trusts this person.
I am guessing the perp is known to the children because the perp brings Jonbenet her favourite treat of the pineapple and because Burke trusts the perp enough to go on some preoccupying errand while the perp takes ten minutes to hastily write the kidnap note, pretend to find it and to show him that someone else has been here and done this thing.
While the kidnap note is very intelligent it seems designed to apply to the mind of a child.
I can't believe Burke didn't crack under the pressure the next morning what with everything going on.
I guess he knew he had to just forget it and get on with his life and leave it to the police to find out.
Is it possible the perp later advised him that it was too late to speak up (once his parents were getting blamed) because then he would get the blame or they all would? Or not to worry his parents would not be found guilty or something?
While the kidnap note is very intelligent it seems designed to apply to the mind of a child.
I can't believe Burke didn't crack under the pressure the next morning what with everything going on.
I guess he knew he had to just forget it and get on with his life and leave it to the police to find out.
Is it possible the perp later advised him that it was too late to speak up (once his parents were getting blamed) because then he would get the blame or they all would? Or not to worry his parents would not be found guilty or something?
That was a very good explanation of blanching, otg, though I am not a medical person either.
As far as the red/black scarf and the fibers on JB's body...the red and black fibers found in the cord knot, paint tote, and duct tape were definitively linked to Patsy Ramsey's "Essentials" acrylic fleece jacket. That jacket was red/black/gray, and I believe some gray fibers may have been found as well.
However, it is very possible the red and black scarf which Patsy couldn't identify may have been used to wipe her down or have some other link to the crime. It was an extremely ODD thing to place in a coffin with your 6-year old daughter. I cannot imagine JB asking for a men's scarf, and I cannot imagine a gift given to JR that day would have some deep attachment or significance to JB or JR. The Rs have a habit of distancing themselves to anything that occurred after they got home from the White's whether is was a suspicious thing or something that was or should have been completely innocent. So to me, Patsy claiming she didn't recognize that scarf when she had given them as gifts herself that VERY Christmas fairly SCREAMS that the scarf has some link to the crime. Placing it in the coffin (and then refusing to allow an exhumation of her body) makes me think it may have been used to wipe her down. And of course, being in the coffin, it wouldn't have been available for testing against fibers found on JB. Refusing to allow an exhumation made CERTAIN it never would be.
While it may be too late to test soft tissue on JB for evidence of a stun gun (as there is likely no soft tissue left) it would NOT be too late to test that scarf.
If only Boulder had a DA with a spine.
As far as the red/black scarf and the fibers on JB's body...the red and black fibers found in the cord knot, paint tote, and duct tape were definitively linked to Patsy Ramsey's "Essentials" acrylic fleece jacket. That jacket was red/black/gray, and I believe some gray fibers may have been found as well.
However, it is very possible the red and black scarf which Patsy couldn't identify may have been used to wipe her down or have some other link to the crime. It was an extremely ODD thing to place in a coffin with your 6-year old daughter. I cannot imagine JB asking for a men's scarf, and I cannot imagine a gift given to JR that day would have some deep attachment or significance to JB or JR. The Rs have a habit of distancing themselves to anything that occurred after they got home from the White's whether is was a suspicious thing or something that was or should have been completely innocent. So to me, Patsy claiming she didn't recognize that scarf when she had given them as gifts herself that VERY Christmas fairly SCREAMS that the scarf has some link to the crime. Placing it in the coffin (and then refusing to allow an exhumation of her body) makes me think it may have been used to wipe her down. And of course, being in the coffin, it wouldn't have been available for testing against fibers found on JB. Refusing to allow an exhumation made CERTAIN it never would be.
While it may be too late to test soft tissue on JB for evidence of a stun gun (as there is likely no soft tissue left) it would NOT be too late to test that scarf.
If only Boulder had a DA with a spine.
I might be wrong about this, but I seem to remember from my reading that the DA did not need the Ramseys' permission to exhume JB's body...that is strictly a LE call. In the end, the DA decided that nothing would be gained by exhumation :banghead:
And how!!
You are correct in that the DA didn't need the parents' permission to have the body exhumed. But he DID need a warrant - and he refused to ask a judge to grant one. I am sure his decision was based on more than feeling there would be nothing gained. Of COURSE there was something to be gained- ruling out the stun gun alone would have made it worthwhile. Being able to test that scarf that was so oddly placed in the coffin (to be kept from investigators forever) was another. Bottom like- he (and the R lawyers in whose pockets he seemed to be) didn't want it done.
or the perp could have interrupted BR and JB eating, and then ordered him to his room. moo, but it's possible that BR knows more than he has said.
Amen to that!
just curious...what makes you think the note was written in 10 minutes? It was long, a novelette actually, and there was at least 1 practice note, not to mention the extra time taken to write with the opposite hand and disguise the writing. And what kind of preoccupying errand could have been done in the wee hours of the morning? Also, BR didn't have much of a chance to crack the next morning, because he stayed in bed until his parents sent him to a friend's house. IMO, if a non parent was in that house and had access to JB, and BR saw it, he would have said so. I'm confused. Are you saying that there was someone, outside this family, that was allowed late night access to their house? and BR trusted this person and would keep his mouth shut for him? moo
I don't think it would take longer than 10 minutes for an intelligent person to write that note. It may have been written bit by bit and hidden; it was done from the middle pages of the note pad so it could be closed between times: Burke go make sure the lights are off; Burke go look out the window: is there anyone out there; I think I scared them off, but just check that way and I will check this way - OMG Look! I have found a note. Look what it says.... we can't call the police.... this is serious...
maybe at this point the person has been seen by Burke, but JB has not been seen by Burke in her state. Maybe Burke did not see her at all that night but in hindsight he remembers hearing the fridge open and his mind is trying to work. Maybe when he asks his dad: where did you find the body - it is because he believes or believed the ransom note.
Maybe someone with a key or access to the house (possibly even admitted by Jonbenet) was discovered there by Burke.
If the time was approaching midnight then the person could say: I was calling by to drop something off for your parents but I noticed the lights were off then I saw something suspicious, so I came to investigate.
Maybe the person was a regular visitor at night; maybe the person took JB out that night and came back with her later and suspected Burke had seen something.
In order to induce panic-control JB has been clocked over the head and tied so as she can't move and the note written then shown to Burke by someone who has pulled a knife saying: I saw someone here and am investigating (whilst holding this weapon for my own protection but hopefully you also feel threatened by it).
I think later down the track Burke started to suspect this person and wanted to try to tell child welfare in his interview but was afraid of betraying this person dor some reason, because he was in two minds as to whether he could trust this person or not.
Having seen the size of the paintbrush I don't think JonBenet could have broken the device herself: whoever broke it finished her off: possible scenarios: the perp leaves and Burke finds her and tries to free her accidentally causing the genital wound via the broken paintbrush and also possibly the final strangulation.
The perp and Burke "find her" together and they try to free her (the perp knowing what the consequences will be) and the perp says: we tried to help now there is nothing we can do - but at some point after the perp moves JBs body by pulling her by the strings of her arms and the broken paintbrush - leading Burke to later ask: where did you find her body?
Burke does not see her and the perp pretends to leave or returns and finishes the murder and hides the body - perhaps even after or because the police are called. Could it have been a policeman? Someone the child might listen to or trust? jeez. I just don't know.