KS KS - DENNIS LYNN RADER, BTK Serial Killer

[Manwel]

OK. Nobody has been posting in here for a while. But I just read through almost all of the pages of content here on Rader, and here's a wild question: What is the possibility BTK was Zodiac? (I know, I know, wild theory.) But let's have a little fun wondering here?

*He was Air Force from 1966 until 1970. He was based in Japan in 1968 and likely would have returned from Japan via California for leave periods. USAF nowadays includes 30 days of paid vacation.
*Was awarded a marksmanship prize by USAF.
*I found an unconfirmed Internet site that claims to have his military dates, including suggestion that he was active duty until August 1970 and was officially USAF as of August 1966.
*He was the right age in 1969 (24).
*In his youth he had that real "clean cut" look, cropped hair, would be deemed "attractive" as some witnesses said Zodiac would be considered.
*All of the confirmed Zodiac attacks occur during a period of just 10 months: Dec. 1968 - October 1969, the first near Christmas, the second on Fourth of July, the third in late September, the fourth two weeks later in October. Could he have been based in California during that time or was he still abroad?
*If Kathleen Johns really was a Zodiac victim, this was March 1970, months before Rader would be released from USAF duty.
*If Donna Lass was a real Zodiac victim, she was last seen Sept. 6, 1970. No other probable Zodiac victims exist after this.
*Rader moved to Wichita area after leaving active duty, must have been fall of 1970. From 1970-1974, Zodiac communicates only through correspondence.
*Some of the most dramatic correspondence with both LE and media since Zodiac begins in 1974 after BTK begins killing in Wichita.

Biggest Issues Facing This Theory:

*How were the letters getting mailed later if he wasn't in SF?
*Do assignment periods in USAF conflict with Zodiac dates?

Possibilities:

*If Rader was still USAF Reserves, he likely still had access to "space available" air force "hops" on USAF equipment. Flight time was likely only three hours.
*Did he have a friend he could mail stuff to CA who would drop whatever in the mail without paying attention?

I fully admit I'm totally shooting at the sky here. It's just really interesting how similar BTK was compared to Zodiac in some ways.

 

[Earth]

OK. Nobody has been posting in here for a while. But I just read through almost all of the pages of content here on Rader, and here's a wild question: What is the possibility BTK was Zodiac? (I know, I know, wild theory.) But let's have a little fun wondering here?

*He was Air Force from 1966 until 1970. He was based in Japan in 1968 and likely would have returned from Japan via California for leave periods. USAF nowadays includes 30 days of paid vacation.
*Was awarded a marksmanship prize by USAF.
*I found an unconfirmed Internet site that claims to have his military dates, including suggestion that he was active duty until August 1970 and was officially USAF as of August 1966.
*He was the right age in 1969 (24).
*In his youth he had that real "clean cut" look, cropped hair, would be deemed "attractive" as some witnesses said Zodiac would be considered.
*All of the confirmed Zodiac attacks occur during a period of just 10 months: Dec. 1968 - October 1969, the first near Christmas, the second on Fourth of July, the third in late September, the fourth two weeks later in October. Could he have been based in California during that time or was he still abroad?
*If Kathleen Johns really was a Zodiac victim, this was March 1970, months before Rader would be released from USAF duty.
*If Donna Lass was a real Zodiac victim, she was last seen Sept. 6, 1970. No other probable Zodiac victims exist after this.
*Rader moved to Wichita area after leaving active duty, must have been fall of 1970. From 1970-1974, Zodiac communicates only through correspondence.
*Some of the most dramatic correspondence with both LE and media since Zodiac begins in 1974 after BTK begins killing in Wichita.

Biggest Issues Facing This Theory:

*How were the letters getting mailed later if he wasn't in SF?
*Do assignment periods in USAF conflict with Zodiac dates?

Possibilities:

*If Rader was still USAF Reserves, he likely still had access to "space available" air force "hops" on USAF equipment. Flight time was likely only three hours.
*Did he have a friend he could mail stuff to CA who would drop whatever in the mail without paying attention?

I fully admit I'm totally shooting at the sky here. It's just really interesting how similar BTK was compared to Zodiac in some ways.

It sounds far-fetched, but I suggested a theory on the Redhead Killer that is just as absurd, so I would say it seems to be an avenue worth checking out.

 

[lonewanderer]

OK. Nobody has been posting in here for a while. But I just read through almost all of the pages of content here on Rader, and here's a wild question: What is the possibility BTK was Zodiac? (I know, I know, wild theory.) But let's have a little fun wondering here?

*He was Air Force from 1966 until 1970. He was based in Japan in 1968 and likely would have returned from Japan via California for leave periods. USAF nowadays includes 30 days of paid vacation.
*Was awarded a marksmanship prize by USAF.
*I found an unconfirmed Internet site that claims to have his military dates, including suggestion that he was active duty until August 1970 and was officially USAF as of August 1966.
*He was the right age in 1969 (24).
*In his youth he had that real "clean cut" look, cropped hair, would be deemed "attractive" as some witnesses said Zodiac would be considered.
*All of the confirmed Zodiac attacks occur during a period of just 10 months: Dec. 1968 - October 1969, the first near Christmas, the second on Fourth of July, the third in late September, the fourth two weeks later in October. Could he have been based in California during that time or was he still abroad?
*If Kathleen Johns really was a Zodiac victim, this was March 1970, months before Rader would be released from USAF duty.
*If Donna Lass was a real Zodiac victim, she was last seen Sept. 6, 1970. No other probable Zodiac victims exist after this.
*Rader moved to Wichita area after leaving active duty, must have been fall of 1970. From 1970-1974, Zodiac communicates only through correspondence.
*Some of the most dramatic correspondence with both LE and media since Zodiac begins in 1974 after BTK begins killing in Wichita.

Biggest Issues Facing This Theory:

*How were the letters getting mailed later if he wasn't in SF?
*Do assignment periods in USAF conflict with Zodiac dates?

Possibilities:

*If Rader was still USAF Reserves, he likely still had access to "space available" air force "hops" on USAF equipment. Flight time was likely only three hours.
*Did he have a friend he could mail stuff to CA who would drop whatever in the mail without paying attention?

I fully admit I'm totally shooting at the sky here. It's just really interesting how similar BTK was compared to Zodiac in some ways.

This has also crossed my mind before, Rader also being Zodiac.

I may have a potential solution for a potential solution to your question about being stationed in California, temporarily.

In current military processes, soldiers/airmen etc take the remainder of their saved leave, known as "terminal leave" in one lump sum. Under this leave, they are still military members until their "ETS date".

I do not know how the process worked in 1969-1970, but I don't think it is totally unreasonable to think that DR could have been flown stateside to Cali (a common place to be flown stateside from Asia) to perform outprocessing actions and/or live out a few days under the Cali sun until his "ETS date" arrived. (For what its worth, I didn't leave Germany until my ETS date in 2019, but once again, I am unsure of procedures in 1969-1970)

Now that I think about it, this would be a great time for him to take out his actions as Zodiac, seeing as he would have a very small, or practically no record of ever living in Cali (especially if he stayed in a dorm/barracks/hotel instead of renting a place).

The fact that most of Zodiac's shootings took place also stick out to me as a military member, because (for all 13 years I served) every Federal Holiday was mandated as a "four day weekend". This is a combination of four days off of work, involving the Saturday and Sunday closest to the holiday involved.

Anyways, just my two cents.

 

[Manwel]

This has also crossed my mind before, Rader also being Zodiac.

I may have a potential solution for a potential solution to your question about being stationed in California, temporarily.

In current military processes, soldiers/airmen etc take the remainder of their saved leave, known as "terminal leave" in one lump sum. Under this leave, they are still military members until their "ETS date".

I do not know how the process worked in 1969-1970, but I don't think it is totally unreasonable to think that DR could have been flown stateside to Cali (a common place to be flown stateside from Asia) to perform outprocessing actions and/or live out a few days under the Cali sun until his "ETS date" arrived. (For what its worth, I didn't leave Germany until my ETS date in 2019, but once again, I am unsure of procedures in 1969-1970)

Now that I think about it, this would be a great time for him to take out his actions as Zodiac, seeing as he would have a very small, or practically no record of ever living in Cali (especially if he stayed in a dorm/barracks/hotel instead of renting a place).

The fact that most of Zodiac's shootings took place also stick out to me as a military member, because (for all 13 years I served) every Federal Holiday was mandated as a "four day weekend". This is a combination of four days off of work, involving the Saturday and Sunday closest to the holiday involved.

Anyways, just my two cents.

Thanks for joining in here! I'm glad I'm not alone in getting curious!

Something that always jumped out to me about Zodiac being a presumed local is that he wrote it as "San Fran" on the letters, and nobody calls it "San Fran" unless they're from out of town. Plus, Zodiac didn't even start writing the letters until half a year after the first attacks. I found that interesting, too.

 

[SassynOz]

OK. Nobody has been posting in here for a while. But I just read through almost all of the pages of content here on Rader, and here's a wild question: What is the possibility BTK was Zodiac? (I know, I know, wild theory.) But let's have a little fun wondering here?

*He was Air Force from 1966 until 1970. He was based in Japan in 1968 and likely would have returned from Japan via California for leave periods. USAF nowadays includes 30 days of paid vacation.
*Was awarded a marksmanship prize by USAF.
*I found an unconfirmed Internet site that claims to have his military dates, including suggestion that he was active duty until August 1970 and was officially USAF as of August 1966.
*He was the right age in 1969 (24).
*In his youth he had that real "clean cut" look, cropped hair, would be deemed "attractive" as some witnesses said Zodiac would be considered.
*All of the confirmed Zodiac attacks occur during a period of just 10 months: Dec. 1968 - October 1969, the first near Christmas, the second on Fourth of July, the third in late September, the fourth two weeks later in October. Could he have been based in California during that time or was he still abroad?
*If Kathleen Johns really was a Zodiac victim, this was March 1970, months before Rader would be released from USAF duty.
*If Donna Lass was a real Zodiac victim, she was last seen Sept. 6, 1970. No other probable Zodiac victims exist after this.
*Rader moved to Wichita area after leaving active duty, must have been fall of 1970. From 1970-1974, Zodiac communicates only through correspondence.
*Some of the most dramatic correspondence with both LE and media since Zodiac begins in 1974 after BTK begins killing in Wichita.

Biggest Issues Facing This Theory:

*How were the letters getting mailed later if he wasn't in SF?
*Do assignment periods in USAF conflict with Zodiac dates?

Possibilities:

*If Rader was still USAF Reserves, he likely still had access to "space available" air force "hops" on USAF equipment. Flight time was likely only three hours.
*Did he have a friend he could mail stuff to CA who would drop whatever in the mail without paying attention?

I fully admit I'm totally shooting at the sky here. It's just really interesting how similar BTK was compared to Zodiac in some ways.

Trust me if radar killed any others it would be known. He wanted credit for all his murders. In fact they all weren’t connected to him initially. One was way off in fact LE seemed focused on the husband. Radar either called in and sent a letter or just one or the other to KAKE (local tv station ) and complained about not getting the recognition for that one. Which stunned everyone because he had stopped for awhile and Everyone kinda thought he was out of the area or dead or locked up. Another victim wasn’t connected at first either because it was a different set of circumstances that wasn’t like the others. Again eventually he couldn’t handle not getting recognized and made it known. BTK also kept “ trophies” from his victims and they found his stash and they were all tied to someone. He went into great detail at his senentcing about each and every victim almost like he was proud how he pulled it off. So to sum it up , I’m almost 100% sure he’s not connected imo moo. I’m from the area and I know way way way to much about this case. I came into close contact with this perp I had family that were neighbors with him actually they still live there. But I liked reading your theories !

 

[lonewanderer]

Trust me if radar killed any others it would be known. He wanted credit for all his murders. In fact they all weren’t connected to him initially. One was way off in fact LE seemed focused on the husband. Radar either called in and sent a letter or just one or the other to KAKE (local tv station ) and complained about not getting the recognition for that one. Which stunned everyone because he had stopped for awhile and Everyone kinda thought he was out of the area or dead or locked up. Another victim wasn’t connected at first either because it was a different set of circumstances that wasn’t like the others. Again eventually he couldn’t handle not getting recognized and made it known. BTK also kept “ trophies” from his victims and they found his stash and they were all tied to someone. He went into great detail at his senentcing about each and every victim almost like he was proud how he pulled it off. So to sum it up , I’m almost 100% sure he’s not connected imo moo. I’m from the area and I know way way way to much about this case. I came into close contact with this perp I had family that were neighbors with him actually they still live there. But I liked reading your theories !

Is it possible that he could have done any of the Zodiac stuff, then regretted not taking trophies, prompting the calls/letters?

I also wonder if he didn't take Zodiac trophies because he was not living at a permanent home.

BUT..I do fully believe you. That is why I ask you.

More important than the Zodiac speculations....since I have your ear and personal experience...was he anything like the Mindhunter portrayal??

 

[Manwel]

Is it possible that he could have done any of the Zodiac stuff, then regretted not taking trophies, prompting the calls/letters?

I also wonder if he didn't take Zodiac trophies because he was not living at a permanent home.

BUT..I do fully believe you. That is why I ask you.

More important than the Zodiac speculations....since I have your ear and personal experience...was he anything like the Mindhunter portrayal??

After finally finding images of Rader's weird bondage mask situation, now I get why the wife screams her head off in that Mindhunter scene where she finds Rader in a closet or bathroom or whatever, but they don't show you why he chases after her apologizing. I never knew what to make of that until I recently started reading about him. Geeeeeez.

I'm still convinced the GSK wife had major suspicions or even knowledge and that's why she never got the divorce until it was granted in an emergency filing after his arrest. Like many others, I'm very curious about the experiences of these wives faced with these situations, but I tend to agree a lot of Rader's wife's situation was likely falling into a submissive role and accepting what she thought was his quirks and kinks as long as he kept them in a closet.

 

[Manwel]

Trust me if radar killed any others it would be known. He wanted credit for all his murders. In fact they all weren’t connected to him initially. One was way off in fact LE seemed focused on the husband. Radar either called in and sent a letter or just one or the other to KAKE (local tv station ) and complained about not getting the recognition for that one. Which stunned everyone because he had stopped for awhile and Everyone kinda thought he was out of the area or dead or locked up. Another victim wasn’t connected at first either because it was a different set of circumstances that wasn’t like the others. Again eventually he couldn’t handle not getting recognized and made it known. BTK also kept “ trophies” from his victims and they found his stash and they were all tied to someone. He went into great detail at his senentcing about each and every victim almost like he was proud how he pulled it off. So to sum it up , I’m almost 100% sure he’s not connected imo moo. I’m from the area and I know way way way to much about this case. I came into close contact with this perp I had family that were neighbors with him actually they still live there. But I liked reading your theories !

Yeah, I am far more in the corner of "Rader was BTK, that's it." But it is interesting to speculate. After the GSK was revealed to be like 3-4 different named suspects in different areas, it really starts making you wonder about who else that might apply to if you connect dots.

 

[SassynOz]

Is it possible that he could have done any of the Zodiac stuff, then regretted not taking trophies, prompting the calls/letters?

I also wonder if he didn't take Zodiac trophies because he was not living at a permanent home.

BUT..I do fully believe you. That is why I ask you.

More important than the Zodiac speculations....since I have your ear and personal experience...was he anything like the Mindhunter portrayal??

No actually the movie no I saw very little similarities from the Mindhunter portrayal. It’s Was like they mostly only used the word BTK.

also DR was never out of the area to be killing anywhere else. He wasn’t one who traveled alone like that to even be able to kill elseware. He worked for the city as a city official . Big on his church board , family man , Boy Scout leader. He was to busy to go missing they pretty much have tracked him and he was never out of the area

 

[Earth]

No actually the movie no I saw very little similarities from the Mindhunter portrayal. It’s Was like they mostly only used the word BTK.

also DR was never out of the area to be killing anywhere else. He wasn’t one who traveled alone like that to even be able to kill elseware. He worked for the city as a city official . Big on his church board , family man , Boy Scout leader. He was to busy to go missing they pretty much have tracked him and he was never out of the area

I suppose what you say might be true. However, I would not be surprised if the Zodiac turned out to be someone very similar to BTK; someone whom nobody would suspect.

 

[8771]

OK. Nobody has been posting in here for a while. But I just read through almost all of the pages of content here on Rader, and here's a wild question: What is the possibility BTK was Zodiac? (I know, I know, wild theory.) But let's have a little fun wondering here?

*He was Air Force from 1966 until 1970. He was based in Japan in 1968 and likely would have returned from Japan via California for leave periods. USAF nowadays includes 30 days of paid vacation.
*Was awarded a marksmanship prize by USAF.
*I found an unconfirmed Internet site that claims to have his military dates, including suggestion that he was active duty until August 1970 and was officially USAF as of August 1966.
*He was the right age in 1969 (24).
*In his youth he had that real "clean cut" look, cropped hair, would be deemed "attractive" as some witnesses said Zodiac would be considered.
*All of the confirmed Zodiac attacks occur during a period of just 10 months: Dec. 1968 - October 1969, the first near Christmas, the second on Fourth of July, the third in late September, the fourth two weeks later in October. Could he have been based in California during that time or was he still abroad?
*If Kathleen Johns really was a Zodiac victim, this was March 1970, months before Rader would be released from USAF duty.
*If Donna Lass was a real Zodiac victim, she was last seen Sept. 6, 1970. No other probable Zodiac victims exist after this.
*Rader moved to Wichita area after leaving active duty, must have been fall of 1970. From 1970-1974, Zodiac communicates only through correspondence.
*Some of the most dramatic correspondence with both LE and media since Zodiac begins in 1974 after BTK begins killing in Wichita.

Biggest Issues Facing This Theory:

*How were the letters getting mailed later if he wasn't in SF?
*Do assignment periods in USAF conflict with Zodiac dates?

Possibilities:

*If Rader was still USAF Reserves, he likely still had access to "space available" air force "hops" on USAF equipment. Flight time was likely only three hours.
*Did he have a friend he could mail stuff to CA who would drop whatever in the mail without paying attention?

I fully admit I'm totally shooting at the sky here. It's just really interesting how similar BTK was compared to Zodiac in some ways.

I read Rader's daughter's book last summer(?) and was pretty intrigued by his MO at the time. I live near the Zodiac area and have always been obsessed with that case, so I try to connect any murder or murderer to him.

For what it's worth, Travis Air Force Base is a pretty short trip to a lot of Zodiac's hits. Idk if I can reason BTK is Zodiac, as I agree with a previous poster in that Rader couldn't have resisted getting credit for that. I do, however, think the Air Force angle is interesting and something I've yet to really consider re: Zodiac.

 

[Manwel]

I suppose what you say might be true. However, I would not be surprised if the Zodiac turned out to be someone very similar to BTK; someone whom nobody would suspect.

Absolutely. I feel like plenty of people have speculated that he would be a loner, someone who acted suspiciously, but BTK proves it's not that simple. Granted, hindsight is 20/20, people found Rader weird in hindsight. GSK, too. BTK and even GSK demonstrate some significant compartmentalizing. Plus, it's interesting that GSK and BTK calmed down their attacks as they got older, but even BTK was 59 and planning an attack in 2004 before getting arrested. The idea that Zodiac just stopped killing doesn't make sense. He either moved to a new hunting ground or died.

That BTK had such large gap between 1991 final kill and 2004 planned kill, though, does make me want to speculate that he had other victims. Did he have that long of a cooling-off period or could there have been others? And if there had been others, then that makes me wonder why he didn't promote himself as their killer? If he could remain hush about that, maybe he was fine with Zodiac being his big "famous" secret? Total speculation and hypothesizing of course!

All the same, if there could be a cooling-off period for Rader of say 13-14 years, it's possible Zodiac had a significant gap, too.

 

[airportwoman]

This thread was linked on another board, and it's really crazy to read posts from almost 20 years ago, before he was arrested! Unfortunately, he's still using our oxygen.

His daughter's book was very good, and very sad. She certainly never would have suspected he was even remotely capable of doing anything like this!

ISTR that he was referenced in one of the "Book of Lists" that came out in the 1970s and 1980s, but I was able to get them from the library, via interlibrary loan, and didn't see it. It was in a list of unsolved serial killings, wherever I did read it.

 

[Kell1]

Some considerations on the comparison to BTK to the Zodiac suspect

From an investigative standpoint, though they both sought attention, Rader's crimes, were much more overtly sexual in nature, even though Rader didnt rape any of his victims, the Zodiac crimes, were more muted sexually, though there was no outward appearance of a sexual component to Zodiacs, crimes, there was a psycho sexual component to them.

Though theres no overt sexual component to the zodiac killings, there is however , a voyeuristic nature to the Zodiac's crimes

If we were to look at existing serial killers Zodiac would be more similar behaviorally to David Berkowitz, than Dennis Rader.

Berkowitz, didnt sexually assault any of his victims, like the other 2 mentioned, but he would return to the scenes, where they were killed and he would in some cases, lay on the ground where the victims fell, he would then go home masturbate and relive the crimes, over and over again , Zodiac would also almost certainly return to the scenes of his crimes, as well, reveling in the knowledge he was right there and no one would know .

Also Rader also took plea deal, to avoid the death penalty, which is basically non existent in California, If he was indeed the Zodiac, knowing he was already getting a life sentence with no chance of parole , and the chance to claim to be behind one of the most infamous series of unsolved, murders in US history, with his ego, and need for control and attention....id imagine, hed immediately cop to the Zodiac killings, if he was indeed responsible.

But like many, hes more impressed with his own work, not those of the others.

 

[airportwoman]

Some people believe that Ted Kaczynski is the Zodiac. While he was in the region at the time, I disagree.

 

[Kell1]

Some people believe that Ted Kaczynski is the Zodiac. While he was in the region at the time, I disagree.

Likewise

 

[Kell1]

Remember that the criminal act itself is most paramount and points to the true motives of the offender.

The notoriety seeking is a secondary component, usually generated after they notice their deeds published in the media, but gives investigators a further look into the mind of the individual responsible.

When a horrific act receives print, to the right type of individual , suddenly a lifelong worthless, nothing becomes "something" , that can wield the power of life and death, control an entire city through fear, and that just feeds into their already damaged psyche.

However the murders themselves are their primary focus

 

[sds71]

@BrianEntin

Investigators are at Dennis Rader's (BTK) old property and they are digging. We are told Osage County, Oklahoma authorities are in Kansas looking into what ties Rader may have to missing persons and murders in Oklahoma.

 

[Betty P]

@BrianEntin

Investigators are at Dennis Rader's (BTK) old property and they are digging. We are told Osage County, Oklahoma authorities are in Kansas looking into what ties Rader may have to missing persons and murders in Oklahoma.

Oh wow. Is Rader talking again? Maybe he doesn't like all the media attention that Rex Heuermann is getting these days. Remember Rader became angry when police and the media stopped reporting on his murders?

 

[sds71]

@BrianEntin


I'm on the phone with @KerriRawson now. She tells me she was flown to Oklahoma in June to help investigators in Osage County. Kerri also visited her dad (BTK) in prison for a total of 3 hours in June and July to try and get information from him.


Kerri tells me her dad was not cooperative with her and is not cooperating with the investigation. But she is having ongoing conversations with her father.


Kerri is on the phone with me right now from the hospital where she is battling COVID. She didn't know they were going to start digging today.