KY KY - Shively, WhtFem 20-40, UP74, distinctive narrow nose, Jul'05

[Irish_Eyes]

Anne Marie Fahey's case was pretty well documented in Ann Rule's book And Never Let Her Go. Besides the strong circumstantial evidence that Ann Marie was taken out to sea, Ann Marie was also, if I remember correctly, very tall - around 5'10 I think. That seems way too far out of the height range here.

 

[JayFletcher6493]

Has Tracy Florez been compared? https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/1028/

 

[Ozoner]

Has Tracy Florez been compared? https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/1028/

She's not on the list of rule outs:
https://identifyus.org/cases/74


Neither is Carolyn Sue Martin. The post-mortem interval isn't a match, but she resembles the reconstruction slightly, so I think it would be worth a comparison.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...amp-Mark-Martin-2-Madison-Heights-31-Aug-1981

 

[Boobug20002003]

I have a ? Is this still an unsolved case I am new at this and not sure how to find out if it is...

 

[fred&edna]

I have a ? Is this still an unsolved case I am new at this and not sure how to find out if it is...

Yes. She is listed on "NAMUS"... A database of missing and unidentified persons. I'm sorry I don't have a link but you can Google it.

 

[carbuff]

Yes. She is listed on "NAMUS"... A database of missing and unidentified persons. I'm sorry I don't have a link but you can Google it.

Link in post #123 in this thread.

There are updates to the ruleouts but it's a long list. So many things I'm trying to get to...

(and I wish we still had the pulling-my-hair-out emoticon...)

 

[Alleykins]

I miss the variety of emoticons we used to have.

 

[MadMcGoo]

I got to looking into Samuel Little’s unmatched victims a little more closely and one woman, said to have been picked up in Cleveland Ohio, murdered and her body dumped in Northern Kentucky (unspecific town although Covington is listed in this link).
Samuel Little: Confessions of a Killer | Federal Bureau of Investigation

Not expecting to find anything relevant, I decided to browse through UIDs who fit within the somewhat vague description Little gave authorities. It was actually the hand drawn photo of what his victim looked like that he provided to investigators and the reconstruction image of Shively Jane Doe that caused me to want to dig further.

Jane Doe, unmatched victim of Samuel Little

I didn’t see this missing person listed among those who had been excluded as being JD or having previously been discussed on this thread. What about Lea Anna Allen – The Charley Project ?

Last seen in Cincinnati, Ohio on March 16, 1982. Circumstances are as vague as can be, the usual “last seen on ___ in ___, little information is known/available”. Her other information fits within the ranges provided for JD; She was 33 years old (20-40 years old, estimated), stood about 5 feet 2 inches tall (within 1 inch of the estimated 5 feet 3 inches and 5 feet 5 inches of JD) and 135 pounds. Brown hair that looks, in her photos, to be kept short to medium length (similar to JD).

Jane Doe, Lea Anna, Lea Anna

I struggled with the resemblance for awhile - I just didn’t see it based on these two photos (especially the one where her head is tilted slightly upward) of Lea Anna - then I saw the full body photo of her on NamUs and I really saw the likeness! I see the ‘distinct slender nose’. Not to mention the other proportions of her facial features.

According to family, taken not too long prior to the missing date

Now, I understand the PMI, and Little’s recollection of the murder, should make for an automatic rule out with this one - JD’s earliest year of death estimated at 1990, Lea Anna missing in 1982, and Little remembering the murder occurring in 1984....... but is there any possibility for a match???


The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

 

[carbuff]

I dunno. They do all look like they could be the same woman.

We've had PMI's be wildly off before, and the older the remains, the more likely they are to be off.

Most of the articles about Little and his victims mention that his memory for dates is erratic, though in other areas it's very accurate. He could be off by a couple of years. The circumstances and geography are certainly compelling.

 

[lunarpisces]

Some other flavors from FaceApp, based on composite with a little makeup.

curly
long
glasses
smile

 

[MadMcGoo]

I dunno. They do all look like they could be the same woman.

We've had PMI's be wildly off before, and the older the remains, the more likely they are to be off.

Most of the articles about Little and his victims mention that his memory for dates is erratic, though in other areas it's very accurate. He could be off by a couple of years. The circumstances and geography are certainly compelling.

I know! The PMI is really holding me up!

 

[MadMcGoo]

Some other flavors from FaceApp, based on composite with a little makeup.

View attachment 220911 curly
View attachment 220912 long
View attachment 220914 glasses
View attachment 220915 smile

Very good thing you’re doing! Bringing even more life to these UID! Thank you for your hard work!! It doesn’t go unnoticed!

 

[Bit of hope]

I would like to join the search but there are so many women on a rule out list I don't have access to.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Current list of Missing Person exclusions for UP74 per NamUs: (89)
MP28907 Carey Jones 05/01/2005 Sarasota FL
MP11480 Lavonne Miller 12/06/1997 Greene AR
MP7282 Donna Cupido 10/21/2004 Colbert AL
MP38062 Barbara Wooden 10/23/1998 Hamilton TN
MP793 Molly Dattilo 07/06/2004 Marion IN (X2)
MP8988 Debra Lucas 09/26/2010 Jefferson KY
MP23 Janet March 08/15/1996 Davidson TN (X2)
MP6907 Carolyn Martin 08/31/1981 Oakland MI
MP10654 Julie Johnson 03/01/1991 Howard IN
MP8679 Shelia Carver 06/16/1998 Oconee SC (X2)
MP1045 Brookley Louks 06/24/2002 Johnson IN (X2)
MP299 Kerry O'Brien-Krueger 12/06/1989 Racine WI
MP2524 Diane Kennedy 12/31/1996 Haywood NC
MP1363 Bobbi Campbell 12/30/1994 Salt Lake UT
MP16945 Colleen McHugh 04/17/1994 Will IL (removed from NamUs)
MP2026 Tabitha Tuders 04/29/2003 Davidson TN
MP5308 Melinda Creech 09/05/1979 Madison IN
MP12190 Jennifer Wilmer 09/13/1993 Trinity CA
MP23648 Susan Riedling 03/31/1986 Bullitt KY
MP20328 Julie Brumfield-Gann 09/12/1994 St. Tammany LA
MP11194 Angelia Hilbert 06/03/1989 Jefferson KY
MP365 Carrie Polega 10/14/2003 Marinette WI
MP1734 Rose West 09/10/1991 Green KY
MP1134 Brandy Wilson 06/04/2002 Clinton IN (X2)
MP1698 Melanie Flynn 02/26/1977 Fayette KY
MP17088 Denise Fraley 09/12/1982 Linn IA
MP2238 Patricia Calloway 03/03/1993 Ohio KY
MP5616 Margaret Warrington 02/24/1997 Kenton KY
MP74 Elizabeth Maggard 07/04/1984 Campbell KY
MP2707 Robin Abrams 10/04/1990 Will IL
MP1100 Hazel Klug 05/20/1986 Henrico VA
MP6161 Amy Haueter 01/15/2005 Jefferson KY
MP1372 Clarissa Culberson 08/28/1996 Clinton OH
MP52 Heather Teague 08/26/1995 Henderson KY
MP8161 Claudia Shepherd 08/13/2001 Pasco FL
MP8530 Janis Sanders 08/05/1975 Berrien MI
MP10665 Belinda Blaniar 06/21/1996 Westmoreland PA
MP286 Lisa Shuttleworth 09/04/2003 Aiken SC
MP1118 Karen Smith 12/27/2000 Marion IN
MP10496 Gloria Korzon 03/06/1981 Bucks PA
MP2956 Karen Spencer 12/29/1989 Clermont OH
MP9787 Mindy Arnett 08/14/2002 Mackinac MI
MP192 Sandra Jacobson 11/16/1996 Burleigh ND
MP9510 Stephanie Banks 02/13/2004 Clark KY
MP9861 -- -- -- --
MP8614 Ellabeth Lodermeier 03/06/1974 Minnehaha SD
MP402 Jodi Huisentruit 06/26/1995 Cerro Gordo IA
MP7025 Tricia Reitler 03/29/1993 Grant IN
MP1193 Janeth Rowe 03/02/1997 Fairfax VA
MP763 Sandra Baker 05/25/2000 Mercer PA
MP806 Danielle Imbo 02/19/2005 Philadelphia PA
MP974 Patricia Schmidt 06/04/1985 Henrico VA
MP2632 Donna Rigsby 06/28/2003 Talladega AL
MP2328 Traci Kegley 04/26/1998 Elmore AL
MP945 Hope Curry 11/11/2000 Virginia Beach VA
MP1137 Pamela Golden 07/22/1993 Pulaski AR
MP53 Jennifer Wix 03/25/2004 Robertson TN
MP9336 Donda Martino 06/30/1994 Hamilton TN
MP2349 Karen Steed 11/25/1997 Calhoun AL
MP1716 Dawn Haines 01/01/1995 Hardin KY
MP80 Patsy Nonemaker 12/31/1999 Bullitt KY
MP1987 Amber Cates 04/11/2004 Maury TN
MP1141 Rachel Good 10/18/2003 Rockingham VA
MP1717 Sharon Sons 10/27/1993 Fayette KY
MP2413 Tiffany Sessions 02/09/1989 Alachua FL
MP1727 Sonya Bradley 10/11/2002 Lyon KY
-- Deborah Overbaugh -- -- NY
MP2694 Debbie Escalante 08/21/1989 -- NM (X2)
MP1904 Christine Jarrett 01/03/1991 Howard MD (removed from NamUs)
-- Jeri Duvall -- -- IL
MP625 Nelda Hardwick 10/14/1993 Calcasieu LA
MP1091 Sharon Apgar 11/18/1999 Clermont OH
MP746 Sharon Shechter 12/09/2001 Monroe NY
MP400 Melissa Hasley 10/18/2002 Polk IA
MP1764 Joyce Crider 10/28/2002 Fayette KY (X2)
MP1829 Michelle Lokker 06/07/2003 Allegan MI
MP292 Becky Marzo 12/12/2003 Milwaukee WI
MP95 Christine Lott 03/25/2004 Bonner ID (removed from NamUs)
MP630 Jennifer Wilkerson 07/13/2004 Lubbock TX
MP759 Theresa Waldron 01/10/2005 Schenectady NY
MP2386 Lynn Bandringa 05/29/1967 San Bernardino CA
MP607 Nina Herron 05/14/2005 Bernalillo NM


@Bit of hope

 

[Bit of hope]

Current list of Missing Person exclusions for UP74 per NamUs: (89)
MP28907 Carey Jones 05/01/2005 Sarasota FL
MP11480 Lavonne Miller 12/06/1997 Greene AR
MP7282 Donna Cupido 10/21/2004 Colbert AL
MP38062 Barbara Wooden 10/23/1998 Hamilton TN
MP793 Molly Dattilo 07/06/2004 Marion IN (X2)
MP8988 Debra Lucas 09/26/2010 Jefferson KY
MP23 Janet March 08/15/1996 Davidson TN (X2)
MP6907 Carolyn Martin 08/31/1981 Oakland MI
MP10654 Julie Johnson 03/01/1991 Howard IN
MP8679 Shelia Carver 06/16/1998 Oconee SC (X2)
MP1045 Brookley Louks 06/24/2002 Johnson IN (X2)
MP299 Kerry O'Brien-Krueger 12/06/1989 Racine WI
MP2524 Diane Kennedy 12/31/1996 Haywood NC
MP1363 Bobbi Campbell 12/30/1994 Salt Lake UT
MP16945 Colleen McHugh 04/17/1994 Will IL (removed from NamUs)
MP2026 Tabitha Tuders 04/29/2003 Davidson TN
MP5308 Melinda Creech 09/05/1979 Madison IN
MP12190 Jennifer Wilmer 09/13/1993 Trinity CA
MP23648 Susan Riedling 03/31/1986 Bullitt KY
MP20328 Julie Brumfield-Gann 09/12/1994 St. Tammany LA
MP11194 Angelia Hilbert 06/03/1989 Jefferson KY
MP365 Carrie Polega 10/14/2003 Marinette WI
MP1734 Rose West 09/10/1991 Green KY
MP1134 Brandy Wilson 06/04/2002 Clinton IN (X2)
MP1698 Melanie Flynn 02/26/1977 Fayette KY
MP17088 Denise Fraley 09/12/1982 Linn IA
MP2238 Patricia Calloway 03/03/1993 Ohio KY
MP5616 Margaret Warrington 02/24/1997 Kenton KY
MP74 Elizabeth Maggard 07/04/1984 Campbell KY
MP2707 Robin Abrams 10/04/1990 Will IL
MP1100 Hazel Klug 05/20/1986 Henrico VA
MP6161 Amy Haueter 01/15/2005 Jefferson KY
MP1372 Clarissa Culberson 08/28/1996 Clinton OH
MP52 Heather Teague 08/26/1995 Henderson KY
MP8161 Claudia Shepherd 08/13/2001 Pasco FL
MP8530 Janis Sanders 08/05/1975 Berrien MI
MP10665 Belinda Blaniar 06/21/1996 Westmoreland PA
MP286 Lisa Shuttleworth 09/04/2003 Aiken SC
MP1118 Karen Smith 12/27/2000 Marion IN
MP10496 Gloria Korzon 03/06/1981 Bucks PA
MP2956 Karen Spencer 12/29/1989 Clermont OH
MP9787 Mindy Arnett 08/14/2002 Mackinac MI
MP192 Sandra Jacobson 11/16/1996 Burleigh ND
MP9510 Stephanie Banks 02/13/2004 Clark KY
MP9861 -- -- -- --
MP8614 Ellabeth Lodermeier 03/06/1974 Minnehaha SD
MP402 Jodi Huisentruit 06/26/1995 Cerro Gordo IA
MP7025 Tricia Reitler 03/29/1993 Grant IN
MP1193 Janeth Rowe 03/02/1997 Fairfax VA
MP763 Sandra Baker 05/25/2000 Mercer PA
MP806 Danielle Imbo 02/19/2005 Philadelphia PA
MP974 Patricia Schmidt 06/04/1985 Henrico VA
MP2632 Donna Rigsby 06/28/2003 Talladega AL
MP2328 Traci Kegley 04/26/1998 Elmore AL
MP945 Hope Curry 11/11/2000 Virginia Beach VA
MP1137 Pamela Golden 07/22/1993 Pulaski AR
MP53 Jennifer Wix 03/25/2004 Robertson TN
MP9336 Donda Martino 06/30/1994 Hamilton TN
MP2349 Karen Steed 11/25/1997 Calhoun AL
MP1716 Dawn Haines 01/01/1995 Hardin KY
MP80 Patsy Nonemaker 12/31/1999 Bullitt KY
MP1987 Amber Cates 04/11/2004 Maury TN
MP1141 Rachel Good 10/18/2003 Rockingham VA
MP1717 Sharon Sons 10/27/1993 Fayette KY
MP2413 Tiffany Sessions 02/09/1989 Alachua FL
MP1727 Sonya Bradley 10/11/2002 Lyon KY
-- Deborah Overbaugh -- -- NY
MP2694 Debbie Escalante 08/21/1989 -- NM (X2)
MP1904 Christine Jarrett 01/03/1991 Howard MD (removed from NamUs)
-- Jeri Duvall -- -- IL
MP625 Nelda Hardwick 10/14/1993 Calcasieu LA
MP1091 Sharon Apgar 11/18/1999 Clermont OH
MP746 Sharon Shechter 12/09/2001 Monroe NY
MP400 Melissa Hasley 10/18/2002 Polk IA
MP1764 Joyce Crider 10/28/2002 Fayette KY (X2)
MP1829 Michelle Lokker 06/07/2003 Allegan MI
MP292 Becky Marzo 12/12/2003 Milwaukee WI
MP95 Christine Lott 03/25/2004 Bonner ID (removed from NamUs)
MP630 Jennifer Wilkerson 07/13/2004 Lubbock TX
MP759 Theresa Waldron 01/10/2005 Schenectady NY
MP2386 Lynn Bandringa 05/29/1967 San Bernardino CA
MP607 Nina Herron 05/14/2005 Bernalillo NM


@Bit of hope

Hahahahaha...OMG. You rock!!

 

[carbuff]

Whoa, @MadMcGoo! That is AWESOME!

 

[MadMcGoo]

This seemed far fetched even by my standards...until I read more about her disappearance. There is just something about her...
Mary Jane Croft VanGilder

- Missing from Shelby/Plymouth, Ohio since 1945
- 33 year old white female
- 4’11”-5’5”, 115-150 lbs, brown/auburn hair, brown eyes

• NamUs
• The Doe Network
• The Charley Project
• What Happened to Shelby’s Mary Jane VanGilder in 1945?
• Body to be exhumed in case of Shelby woman
• Police reopen case into woman missing from Shelby since 1945
• ‘Jane Doe’ exhumed at Mound Hill Cemetery

 

[carbuff]

You're right, this is out there even by your standards

She went missing in 1945 at age 33. Even if you assume a very long post-mortem interval, she would have been 75 in 1985. Or are you thinking that the post-mortem interval could be decades? I suppose that's possible and there is a lot of resemblance. Hmmm. After Mr. Loveless, I suppose we can't rule it out on just that.

 

[MadMcGoo]

You're right, this is out there even by your standards

She went missing in 1945 at age 33. Even if you assume a very long post-mortem interval, she would have been 75 in 1985. Or are you thinking that the post-mortem interval could be decades? I suppose that's possible and there is a lot of resemblance. Hmmm. After Mr. Loveless, I suppose we can't rule it out on just that.

LOL...I may have hit rock bottom ...
No, I actually thought of you and Mr. Loveless when considering this one! The “nose talk” on Denim’s thread yesterday, and you mentioning the tip of the nose changing, I got to thinking about some of the threads I’ve seen where CarlK explained comparisons and things like that. (I really do pay attention and sincerely want to learn).

Then I decided to search Facebook (which I never do) for missing people in Kentucky. For some reason a post about Mary Jane was on one of the KY group pages and a detective was describing her and how her kids/grandkids were still actively searching for her or answers after all this time.

That intrigued me to begin with simply because I know how crucial and rare that often is when it comes down to DNA and potential comparisons. Then I saw her photo and thought “she has a slender nose”. After seeing the other photos of her, all that stuff Carl (and others) had described, suddenly made sense to me! I realized exactly what that meant in Shively’s case particularly.

I could focus less on the physical “narrowness” and visualize what that would look like if I were seeing only a skull. This is all completely irrelevant, but might raise my standards so to speak.

Mr. Loveless is a prime example. I certainly don’t believe Mary Jane lived to see 1985, unfortunately I don’t think she even saw 1946. There are just so many variables in this UID’s case that leave the door open for otherwise unlikely scenarios. IMO. Shively already has so many listed rule-outs, especially for a relatively newer case.

Because I think we can afford to do so in this case, I asked myself this: if not for the estimated PMI being what it is, could these two be a match? I answered myself, “Yes!”. I didn’t follow the case of Mr. Loveless, but if I understand correctly his partial remains were discovered in 1979 and 1991 and his PMI was listed at 5 years? Come to find out he likely died before 1920?!

So, in short, yes I do think the PMI could be decades.

 

[carbuff]

LOL...I may have hit rock bottom ...
No, I actually thought of you and Mr. Loveless when considering this one! The “nose talk” on Denim’s thread yesterday, and you mentioning the tip of the nose changing, I got to thinking about some of the threads I’ve seen where CarlK explained comparisons and things like that. (I really do pay attention and sincerely want to learn).

Then I decided to search Facebook (which I never do) for missing people in Kentucky. For some reason a post about Mary Jane was on one of the KY group pages and a detective was describing her and how her kids/grandkids were still actively searching for her or answers after all this time.

That intrigued me to begin with simply because I know how crucial and rare that often is when it comes down to DNA and potential comparisons. Then I saw her photo and thought “she has a slender nose”. After seeing the other photos of her, all that stuff Carl (and others) had described, suddenly made sense to me! I realized exactly what that meant in Shively’s case particularly.

I could focus less on the physical “narrowness” and visualize what that would look like if I were seeing only a skull. This is all completely irrelevant, but might raise my standards so to speak.

Mr. Loveless is a prime example. I certainly don’t believe Mary Jane lived to see 1985, unfortunately I don’t think she even saw 1946. There are just so many variables in this UID’s case that leave the door open for otherwise unlikely scenarios. IMO. Shively already has so many listed rule-outs, especially for a relatively newer case.

Because I think we can afford to do so in this case, I asked myself this: if not for the estimated PMI being what it is, could these two be a match? I answered myself, “Yes!”. I didn’t follow the case of Mr. Loveless, but if I understand correctly his partial remains were discovered in 1979 and 1991 and his PMI was listed at 5 years? Come to find out he likely died before 1920?!

So, in short, yes I do think the PMI could be decades.

Hm, you make a very good case. (And I love your out of the box ideas!) And she has been compared to a UID found in 1985, so I don't think they're wedded to a time frame.

I would suggest sending the info about this Jane Doe to the detective on Mary Jane's case, if there's contact information on the Facebook discussion. They're the one most likely to be motivated to look into it and not dismiss it out of hand.