Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022

[ReadySet]

Oh, thank you. So here is a case where the scenario we were told doesn't happen, actually happened.

Thank goodness she was found. A perspective I have about this is that there really was a stranger in the school, who was described and a description put out. He was never found, but she was. AFAIK, Kyron is the only school abduction who has never been found. IMO

 

[ReadySet]

I was thinking more how the scenario envisioned by everyone of how Terri took Kyron fails to make sense, but I probably (ha!) used the wrong words here. Sorry.

Probability as in statistics and such, I don't really care about. It's the facts that matter. The evidence. And I realize that statistics and non-scientific methods of judgments (behaviour analysis, polygraphs) are pushed in this case because the facts and evidence of Terri's involvement just aren't there.

If she believed the school was responsible due to lax procedures (and it's hard to argue that it wasn't) then at least that would have been taken care of, for no other reason than self-preservation. I think Terri had a lot of ideas of what happened over the years, with few means to settle on one scenario in particular (since the ones who should do that decided to settle on her instead). Being innocent, she isn't afforded the luxury of single-mindedness that her accusers have.

But yeah, the school made it out golden and Kaine didn't sue, because everyone (Kaine included) immediately placed all blame on Terri. The idea that it's a mark against Terri that no one sues the school and no one looks for the unidentified man is ridiculous. If LE et al were more discerning (and competent) they wouldn't have put all their eggs in the Terri basket, with embarrassing (for them) results.

This all rests on the assumption that when Kyron walked out of the school it was with the seeming intention of leaving it. Would asking a kid to just pop outside and get something from a truck in the parking lot require signing out? In a school where kids could go outside unattended (as testified by the groundskeeper)?

I cited all three of these not as examples of a similar crime (that would be ridiculous), but as cases with a similar tunnel vision, and where the single-minded pursuit of an individual by LE is taken as proof that the LE are correct. In the Drexel case, the family of the victim also pushed the LE theory, telling the public that there was more evidence that hadn't been revealed.

This fairly typical comment (from the Drexel thread) is pretty similar to what has been said in the Horman threads:


Turns out they had nothing. The Taylors were completely unrelated.

There continues to be this worrying notion that getting a lawyer when the police begin to target you is a sign of guilt. Terri didn't get a lawyer until it became clear the police were trying to incriminate her (via a sting operation). Did that happen to any of the other parents? Because if it did, they too should have gotten lawyers.

Cold comfort for Lindy Chamberlain.

I honestly don't care about likelihood. I care about facts and evidence. And what we have now speaks against Terri's involvement.

Don't look at the lack of evidence. Don't look at the failure of the police to get an indictment after 12 years. Don't look at their admitted mistakes regarding cell phone data, their failed stings, their reliance on voodoo science like polygraphs, the disagreement from the FBI.

No, look at her behaviour. Let "experts" (i.e. self-taught) analyze the way she looks up here, the way she frowns here. She didn't do enough to get visitations with her daughter on the advise of her lawyer. I, who have never been in a similar situation, would obviously act differently. Didn't she sext someone? Isn't she a BAD MOTHER(tm)?

And isn't being a BAD MOTHER basically the same as being guilty of murder?

Denigration based on suppositions and no facts. Yeah, don't want to do that.

Would this include the parents who were set to chaperone the children during their tour of the exhibits? Outside the view of the teachers?

In my experience, "common sense" is mostly used as an excuse to stick with pre-conceived notions. A lot of this is how teachers should be, not how they actually are. And what they are is people. Sometimes people slip up, and they obviously did here. The illogical idea that Terri used her appointment as an reason to remove Kyron from the school, even if it happened (and I have never seen anyone from LE say it did), is no excuse for the failure of the teacher here.

There's so much stereotyping going round in this case. A mother wouldn't do this. A teacher wouldn't do that. An innocent person wouldn't behave like this. Usually with the writer themselves as the measure of what's right, and often in situations that they haven't experienced themselves, but are still certain they knew how they would react to.

IMO it is very unusual if not unheard of that an innocent parent gets a lawyer when their child has only been missing for three and a half weeks. That is an important part of this case. We're not talking about a DUI or a theft or shoplifting. The case is about a missing child.

Why didn't other Skyline parents sue the school? Couldn't they have claimed their children were put in harms because of the schools lack of safety?

Do we believe the groundskeeper but not the teacher? We believe DDS and Terri but not Kaine and Desiree?

Context is important.
FOR ME, IMO, some points that stand out to me, to name a few:
None of these things in and of themselves, or even a combination of some, points to Terri's guilt, imo.

Terri placed herself with Kyron shortly before he went missing. Do we have any other school abductions where parents were with the child right before they went missing, and the parents went on to be suspects?
Terri's history of law breaking before and after Kyron went missing.
Terri's alleged difficulty with alcohol.
Terri's familiarity with the school, the physical building, the routines, the lack of cameras.
Terri's seeming difficulty with parenting.
Terri's inability to account for some of her time that morning.
Terri's behavior after Kyron went missing.
Those are some of my concerns. None of those things in and of themselves, or even a combination of some, points to Terri's guilt, imo.

It is the totality of what I've read and heard and thought about and reasoned through, based on my own life experience as a mother, teacher, and knowledge of children and parents and schools, reasoning skills and judgement, that lead me to believe Terri disappeared Kyron.

That's my OPINION, to which I am entitled. We are all entitled to state our opinions here; but we are not entitled to have no one challenge it.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

IMO it is very unusual if not unheard of that an innocent parent gets a lawyer when their child has only been missing for three and a half weeks. That is an important part of this case. We're not talking about a DUI or a theft or shoplifting. The case is about a missing child.

People keep saying "only three and a half weeks" as if the duration of time is what matters. She retained legal counsel after the police had not only made her believe she was a suspect, they had conducted a sting operation in order to incriminate her, and when that didn't work, they turned Kaine against her. Those actions are what caused her to retain a lawyer, not an arbitrary span of time.

And retaining the lawyer at that point was the right thing to do. For all the police like to complain about people asserting their rights, it's more worrying that they don't think they can solve cases without trampling all over them.

Why didn't other Skyline parents sue the school? Couldn't they have claimed their children were put in harms because of the schools lack of safety?

Because the police and everyone focused on Terri as a suspect pretty much immediately. That left the school out of the limelight.

Do we believe the groundskeeper but not the teacher? We believe DDS and Terri but not Kaine and Desiree?

What am I supposed to not believe the teacher about? She saw Kyron was missing at 10:00 and wrongly believed that it was due to his doctor's appointment. She was sloppy, not deceitful.

I take what Kaine and Desiree say with a grain of salt, since they (Desiree in particular) have fudged things to Terri's detriment before. That includes things like Desiree changing the time of Terri's gym activity, or wrongly claiming that Terri wouldn't be able to see Kyron's classroom from the top of the stairs.

Context is important.
FOR ME, IMO, some points that stand out to me, to name a few:
None of these things in and of themselves, or even a combination of some, points to Terri's guilt, imo.

Terri placed herself with Kyron shortly before he went missing. Do we have any other school abductions where parents were with the child right before they went missing, and the parents went on to be suspects?

So we're supposed to think parental abduction because that's the majority of cases. Yet when it is pointed out that there still are cases of stranger abductions from school, we get added conditions - parents were with the child before they were abducted, no sign-out at the front desk, no description of the suspect circulated - that shows this case is unique. That's well and good, but it cuts both ways. There are as far as I know no cases of parental abductions from a school that matches all these factors as well. So probability becomes pointless.

Terri's history of law breaking before and after Kyron went missing.
Terri's alleged difficulty with alcohol.
Terri's familiarity with the school, the physical building, the routines, the lack of cameras.
Terri's seeming difficulty with parenting.
Terri's inability to account for some of her time that morning.
Terri's behavior after Kyron went missing.
Those are some of my concerns. None of those things in and of themselves, or even a combination of some, points to Terri's guilt, imo.

Sure. I would say, though that for me seeing them all lined up like this makes me think the case is very weak, since most of these are unrelated to anything about the crime.

Just a small correction, Terri didn't have an inability to account for some of her time. She accounted for all of it, and everything that she could prove, was. The (no more than) 90 minutes she spent on rural roads can't be proven, not because of any actions of Terri, but because there are no CCTV or guaranteed witnesses on said rural roads.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Here's an interesting passage from Terri's book, that I think explains a lot about the case and how it was investigated:

The MCSO did a post-investigation study of its work to date. Sheriff Staton had told the Oregonian on July 2, 2010, that there would be a study to determine what they could do better. Three years later, here it was. Mark Herron told Desiree and Tony that the study focused on:

1. The role of the FBI. The MCSO and the FBI disagreed—and still do—on the profile the feds had developed of a suspect.

2. Whether too many agencies had been involved.

3. The six hours lost before anyone knew Kyron was missing.

4. The need to improve digital access and technology. The sheriff’s office paid for a cell phone expert from California to come to Portland to help. Desiree heard from someone close to the investigation that this was prompted by an earlier case where the MCSO had reportedly misinterpreted cell phone data.

5. The accuracy of the search area. Law enforcement had originally believed that the cell phone tower that pinged on Terri’s phone served only Sauvie Island. They later learned that it served a much wider area, which meant a larger area to search.

I've mentioned 1 before, but I want to look at 5 here. This would be the "Sauvie Island ping" that was rumored to be the reason for the early searches of Sauvie Island, the first area searched that wasn't around the school, only a few days after the abduction. Desiree's implication is that the MCSO's mistake was making the search area too small, but there's another implication.

From early on, we've seen the claim from the police (or sources close to the police) that there was a problem with Terri's cell phone records, i.e. they showed her where she said she hadn't been. Well, the police believed her phone placed her on Sauvie Island, yet she would have told them she never went there. The information that Terri's phone records didn't match her story was widespread and generally seen as a sign of her culpability - yet it was based on a mistake by the MCSO.

 

[ReadySet]

Here's an interesting passage from Terri's book, that I think explains a lot about the case and how it was investigated:



I've mentioned 1 before, but I want to look at 5 here. This would be the "Sauvie Island ping" that was rumored to be the reason for the early searches of Sauvie Island, the first area searched that wasn't around the school, only a few days after the abduction. Desiree's implication is that the MCSO's mistake was making the search area too small, but there's another implication.

From early on, we've seen the claim from the police (or sources close to the police) that there was a problem with Terri's cell phone records, i.e. they showed her where she said she hadn't been. Well, the police believed her phone placed her on Sauvie Island, yet she would have told them she never went there. The information that Terri's phone records didn't match her story was widespread and generally seen as a sign of her culpability - yet it was based on a mistake by the MCSO.

Terri's book? Do you have a link?

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Terri's book? Do you have a link?

Well, that was an unfortunate typo. I meant the book Rebecca Morris wrote with Desiree. Sorry if I gave anyone false hope; I would certainly love to read a book by Terri.

 

[ReadySet]

I believe gitana1 said about a week ago: We can’t examine Terri’s behavior in a vacuum.
I will add to that, crimes don’t occur in a vacuum.

However, according to some recent posts we are told that the following should be ignored:

The fact that no descriptions were put out about the man who supposedly took Kyron.

Terri’s behavior and anything to do with analyzing her behavior.

Terri’s record of law breaking, both before and after Kyron’s disappearance.

Terri’s problems with alcohol.

Terri’s history of poor parenting.

Terri’s knowledge of the school’s layout, entrances and exits, and lack of cameras

The fact that Terri places herself with Kyron shortly before he disappeared.

The lack of support for Terri's account of the 90 minutes.

DDS disappearance from her gardening job.

Probability and statistics

The use of the polygraph as a screening tool

Common sense

The “likelihood” of something happening

The credibility of anyone whose account doesn't jibe with what Terri says.


We are told that none of the above should be taken into consideration.

Where does that leave us? With Terri’s word. Everything else is suspect except, what Terri says, or anything that supports her innocence.

That's not how I've learned to look at a case here at Websleuths. Crimes don't occur in a vacuum. And we can't look at Terri's behavior in a vacuum.

Justice for Kyron.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I believe gitana1 said about a week ago: We can’t examine Terri’s behavior in a vacuum.
I will add to that, crimes don’t occur in a vacuum.

However, according to some recent posts we are told that the following should be ignored:

"Should be ignored" is very different from "doesn't actually relate to the crime, or indicate guilt". Why are these below indicators that she abducted Kyron? Just lining them up and making the claim seems less than helpful. This is similar to the Meredith Kercher case, where these supposedly incriminating "facts" about Amanda Knox were thrown out in long lists, without actually following through on what the consequences of said facts are. Many of them just seem to try and establish that the suspect is a Bad Person(tm).

You could do these lists for Jacob Wetterling's neighbor. For young mr Taylor in the Brittanee Drexel case. For Amanda Knox. For the McCanns. In fact, in true crime forums like this, such lists (in various forms) were often made.

The fact that no descriptions were put out about the man who supposedly took Kyron.

The criticism of LE on this case is that they focused on Terri from the start and failed to properly investigate other venues. I'd say this fit neatly into that.

Terri’s behavior and anything to do with analyzing her behavior.

The biggest weaknesses of behaviour analysis are that every situation is different and every person is different. Oh, and that behaviour analysis isn't scientific.

Terri’s record of law breaking, both before and after Kyron’s disappearance.

Terri’s problems with alcohol.

Terri’s history of poor parenting.

Since her lawbreaking was non-violent (a DUI), how does this connect to abduction and murder?

Terri’s knowledge of the school’s layout, entrances and exits, and lack of cameras

The fact that Terri places herself with Kyron shortly before he disappeared.

None of this is exclusive to Terri. The first is shared with the entirety of the staff, and other parent volunteers of which we know there were many, the second is shared by everyone in the school that morning. Also, I've seen the layout, and it's incredibly non-complicated.

The lack of support for Terri's account of the 90 minutes.

Well, Desiree actually provides support for it in the Morris book. The MCSO study she mentions said the police had used a ping to mistakenly limit the location of Terri's phone to Sauvie Island, while in actuality it covered the surrounding areas as well, like the rural roads Terri claimed to have driven on.

But context matters. The 90 minutes are preceeded by more than 60 minutes in which Terri parked in public places, leaving her car to go into four separate stores (depending on how you count). She would not have had the time or opportunity to kill Kyron before those errands, so if she is guilty he must have been sitting in the car - alone, exposed to anyone who passed by - for about half an hour, combined.

DDS disappearance from her gardening job.

Another one where being vague gives the wrong impression. The most common time for her "disappearance" from the farm (never actually confirmed) is 11:30. Terri was signing in at the gym at 11:39. There's also the fact that DeDe's car never moved from the farm and that the farm and the gym are at least 10 minutes apart.

Probability and statistics

The use of the polygraph as a screening tool

Well, yes, neither of these should be considered when weighing guilt. If the LE are doing that, they should lose their jobs.

Common sense

Common sense tells me Terri didn't do it.

The credibility of anyone whose account doesn't jibe with what Terri says.

You should absolutely take the credibility of anyone into account. But credibility isn't the only thing that matters. Eye witness testimony can be dodgy, especially if information has been made public. Take the guy who saw a white truck with a driver he was certain was Terri Horman, up on highway 30. It can't have been Terri, because she was provably in or between the two Fred Meyer stores at the time the witness gave. It can't have been DeDe (for those who believe the two are interchangable), who had started work at the farm by then. None of this goes to the guy's honesty, but he obviously didn't see what he thinks he saw.

We are told that none of the above should be taken into consideration.

Where does that leave us? With Terri’s word. Everything else is suspect except, what Terri says, or anything that supports her innocence.

No, it leaves us with the evidence, which is what actually matters here. Terri could not have killed Kyron before 10:10, and no reliable witness saw her take him from school, and more importantly, no one saw him at the several public places she had to have taken him to afterwards. Every part of her story that could be confirmed, was.

That's not how I've learned to look at a case here at Websleuths. Crimes don't occur in a vacuum. And we can't look at Terri's behavior in a vacuum.

I've learned to look at a case by examining evidence. At no point has looking at a person's behaviour determined guilt, and in many cases, it was a red herring. I keep circling back to Amanda Knox, but the Chieffi verdict (arguably the worst one in the entire case) that overturned judge Hellmann's acquittal claimed that Hellmann had only looked at individual pieces of evidence rather than taking a "holistic view" of the evidence in their entirety, i.e. disregard the strength or relevance of individual pieces for the big picture. To quote Hellmann (after the final acquittal by the Supreme Court):

Two years ago the Supreme Court criticized us claiming that we had carried out a piecemeal analysis of the evidence, instead of carrying out a comprehensive evaluation. But, I ask myself, if the single pieces of evidence have no value, how was it possible to perform a comprehensive evaluation of nothing?

That's where I stand on Terri Horman.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Well, that was an unfortunate typo. I meant the book Rebecca Morris wrote with Desiree. Sorry if I gave anyone false hope; I would certainly love to read a book by Terri.

Same here.

Since her lawbreaking was non-violent (a DUI), how does this connect to abduction and murder?

Her DUI also involved child endangerment. At the very least, that is probably why she was never able to get a teaching job.

What about the lurid affair with Kaine's old friend 3-weeks after Kyron's disappearance and providing him Kaine's strictly confidential address? Law enforcement called her sexual escapades part of her MO. Apparently, she had used a similar modus operandi with the landscaper. And there has been discussion of her involvement in another murder-for-hire plot when she wasn't even out of her teens, or just barely.

What about threatening to kidnap the baby from the gym? What about the California incidents since Kyron's disappearance that were newsworthy? Examples: stealing a vehicle, having a stolen gun in her possession, and holding a kitchen knife to her boyfriend's neck. I'm probably missing some.

It can't be denied that these all show disrespect for the rules of society and a predilection towards crimes of violence.

None of this is exclusive to Terri. The first is shared with the entirety of the staff, and other parent volunteers of which we know there were many, the second is shared by everyone in the school that morning. Also, I've seen the layout, and it's incredibly non-complicated.

Just to be clear, the second is "The fact that Terri places herself with Kyron shortly before he disappeared." She certainly did place herself with him. She took the now iconic photo of Kyron at 8:45 am inside his classroom. At 8:50 am, they were seen walking side by side through the school parking lot. The vehicle was not parked in the school parking lot where she had said it was but instead was parked on the gravel road on the west side of the school where the elevation drops, partially concealing the vehicle. And that is strange, IMO.

Well, Desiree actually provides support for it in the Morris book. The MCSO study she mentions said the police had used a ping to mistakenly limit the location of Terri's phone to Sauvie Island, while in actuality it covered the surrounding areas as well, like the rural roads Terri claimed to have driven on.

The ping does nothing to support her whereabouts. For one thing, we can't say for sure who had her cell phone that day. My understanding is that someone was trying to call her and the call went unanswered.

But the time of the ping does fall within the 90-minutes she can't account for. However, it is doubtful that the location of the tower places her in the area where she said she was. But she was driving, so maybe.

Also falling within those same 90-minutes is yet another of those pesky, unreliable eyewitnesses who told LE that the F250 was seen pulled over on a fire trail off Newberry Road. And this had enough weight to it that it caused Terri to add to her story that she may have stopped around there somewhere to change a diaper but she couldn't be sure. She had no idea what she might have done with the soiled diaper.

Now this is a relatively young woman, hopefully not stricken with Alzheimer's disease. She surely would have to have some memory of where she drove and where she stopped during a 90-minute interval. She had her 18-month-old daughter with her. The word responsibility comes to my mind.

Law enforcement twice took her back to the area where she said she was in hopes of jogging her memory, but, nope, it didn't help.

It would be a very good thing for her to be able to prove where she was during those 90-missing-minutes on the day her stepson would seemingly vanish. (After he was seen leaving the school with her). So why can't she? Why won't she?

But context matters. The 90 minutes are preceeded by more than 60 minutes in which Terri parked in public places, leaving her car to go into four separate stores (depending on how you count). She would not have had the time or opportunity to kill Kyron before those errands, so if she is guilty he must have been sitting in the car - alone, exposed to anyone who passed by - for about half an hour, combined.

Not at all. There is that strange matter of the partially concealed vehicle. What was going on there?

How much time existed between when she exited the field of the witness's vision and when she pulled out onto the highway driving the F250? She would only need a few minutes. To harm him? To pass him off? She is just as guilty if she passed Kyron off to someone.

Could another adult have been waiting in the vehicle? After all, if she parked in the school parking lot, how did the vehicle get to the partially concealed area of the gravel road?

Are the 90-missing-minutes she won't explain because she had to meet the "someone" she had passed Kyron off to, but first she had to set up her "tight" alibi? Her early emails to friends show that she wanted everyone to believe Kyron went missing between 9 am and 10 am. The big hole in her timeline starts at approximately 10 minutes past 10 o'clock on the morning of June 4, 2010.

What about the strange parking positions at both Fred Meyers? It would have been to her advantage to show that Kyron's booster seat was empty and that she was alone (with the exception of having her baby with her).

I don't believe for a moment she was trying to conceal the presence of an alive and well Kyron sitting up alertly in his booster seat. If he was in that vehicle at that time he was under a tarp or in a recycling bin of some sort.

Is this an indication of three people involved?

Another one where being vague gives the wrong impression. The most common time for her "disappearance" from the farm (never actually confirmed) is 11:30. Terri was signing in at the gym at 11:39. There's also the fact that DeDe's car never moved from the farm and that the farm and the gym are at least 10 minutes apart.

Yes, her car never left the flower farm on Old Germantown Road and her known cell phone inexplicably was locked inside it. But both the ping area and the witness sighting of the F250 on NW Newberry Road are within a driving time range for Terri to have picked DeDe up and reached the gym by 11:39 am. IIRC, wasn't she working near an old hot house on the back end of the property that day? A pretty easy location from which to slip away unseen and then return, equally unseen.

The time Terri left the gym offered enough time for her to drop DeDe off at the flower farm by 1:00 pm. Which is when she surfaced.

You should absolutely take the credibility of anyone into account. But credibility isn't the only thing that matters. Eye witness testimony can be dodgy, especially if information has been made public. Take the guy who saw a white truck with a driver he was certain was Terri Horman, up on highway 30. It can't have been Terri, because she was provably in or between the two Fred Meyer stores at the time the witness gave. It can't have been DeDe (for those who believe the two are interchangable), who had started work at the farm by then. None of this goes to the guy's honesty, but he obviously didn't see what he thinks he saw.

Sure, but it's best for us to call in what we see and let law enforcement be the judge. In cases of this magnitude, the media gets desperate for any bit of news it can find and things like this get out.

Yeah, DeDe was promptly at work by 9 am.

No, it leaves us with the evidence, which is what actually matters here. Terri could not have killed Kyron before 10:10, and no reliable witness saw her take him from school, and more importantly, no one saw him at the several public places she had to have taken him to afterwards. Every part of her story that could be confirmed, was.

It does, indeed, leave us with the evidence. Which none of us are privy to. IMO, based on what we know which is what you are also doing, Terri, or someone else acting on her behalf, could certainly have killed Kyron before 10:10 am.

 

[Boxer]

MOO have no real opinion on TH, but MOO if she did do this she could have caused his death immediately he was in the truck.

 

[Alleykins]

Same here.



Her DUI also involved child endangerment. At the very least, that is probably why she was never able to get a teaching job.

What about the lurid affair with Kaine's old friend 3-weeks after Kyron's disappearance and providing him Kaine's strictly confidential address? Law enforcement called her sexual escapades part of her MO. Apparently, she had used a similar modus operandi with the landscaper. And there has been discussion of her involvement in another murder-for-hire plot when she wasn't even out of her teens, or just barely.

What about threatening to kidnap the baby from the gym? What about the California incidents since Kyron's disappearance that were newsworthy? Examples: stealing a vehicle, having a stolen gun in her possession, and holding a kitchen knife to her boyfriend's neck. I'm probably missing some.

It can't be denied that these all show disrespect for the rules of society and a predilection towards crimes of violence.



Just to be clear, the second is "The fact that Terri places herself with Kyron shortly before he disappeared." She certainly did place herself with him. She took the now iconic photo of Kyron at 8:45 am inside his classroom. At 8:50 am, they were seen walking side by side through the school parking lot. The vehicle was not parked in the school parking lot where she had said it was but instead was parked on the gravel road on the west side of the school where the elevation drops, partially concealing the vehicle. And that is strange, IMO.



The ping does nothing to support her whereabouts. For one thing, we can't say for sure who had her cell phone that day. My understanding is that someone was trying to call her and the call went unanswered.

But the time of the ping does fall within the 90-minutes she can't account for. However, it is doubtful that the location of the tower places her in the area where she said she was. But she was driving, so maybe.

Also falling within those same 90-minutes is yet another of those pesky, unreliable eyewitnesses who told LE that the F250 was seen pulled over on a fire trail off Newberry Road. And this had enough weight to it that it caused Terri to add to her story that she may have stopped around there somewhere to change a diaper but she couldn't be sure. She had no idea what she might have done with the soiled diaper.

Now this is a relatively young woman, hopefully not stricken with Alzheimer's disease. She surely would have to have some memory of where she drove and where she stopped during a 90-minute interval. She had her 18-month-old daughter with her. The word responsibility comes to my mind.

Law enforcement twice took her back to the area where she said she was in hopes of jogging her memory, but, nope, it didn't help.

It would be a very good thing for her to be able to prove where she was during those 90-missing-minutes on the day her stepson would seemingly vanish. (After he was seen leaving the school with her). So why can't she? Why won't she?



Not at all. There is that strange matter of the partially concealed vehicle. What was going on there?

How much time existed between when she exited the field of the witness's vision and when she pulled out onto the highway driving the F250? She would only need a few minutes. To harm him? To pass him off? She is just as guilty if she passed Kyron off to someone.

Could another adult have been waiting in the vehicle? After all, if she parked in the school parking lot, how did the vehicle get to the partially concealed area of the gravel road?

Are the 90-missing-minutes she won't explain because she had to meet the "someone" she had passed Kyron off to, but first she had to set up her "tight" alibi? Her early emails to friends show that she wanted everyone to believe Kyron went missing between 9 am and 10 am. The big hole in her timeline starts at approximately 10 minutes past 10 o'clock on the morning of June 4, 2010.

What about the strange parking positions at both Fred Meyers? It would have been to her advantage to show that Kyron's booster seat was empty and that she was alone (with the exception of having her baby with her).

I don't believe for a moment she was trying to conceal the presence of an alive and well Kyron sitting up alertly in his booster seat. If he was in that vehicle at that time he was under a tarp or in a recycling bin of some sort.

Is this an indication of three people involved?



Yes, her car never left the flower farm on Old Germantown Road and her known cell phone inexplicably was locked inside it. But both the ping area and the witness sighting of the F250 on NW Newberry Road are within a driving time range for Terri to have picked DeDe up and reached the gym by 11:39 am. IIRC, wasn't she working near an old hot house on the back end of the property that day? A pretty easy location from which to slip away unseen and then return, equally unseen.

The time Terri left the gym offered enough time for her to drop DeDe off at the flower farm by 1:00 pm. Which is when she surfaced.



Sure, but it's best for us to call in what we see and let law enforcement be the judge. In cases of this magnitude, the media gets desperate for any bit of news it can find and things like this get out.

Yeah, DeDe was promptly at work by 9 am.



It does, indeed, leave us with the evidence. Which none of us are privy to. IMO, based on what we know which is what you are also doing, Terri, or someone else acting on her behalf, could certainly have killed Kyron before 10:10 am.

Per the groundskeeper, who was there that day and gave a firsthand, public statement:

"It would be impossible for me to either enter the field or exit the field if there was a car parked on the gravel road itself," Dave Stensen told local station KATU. "I mean it would seem to me like I would have remembered, 'Oh gee yeah,' there was a big white truck in my way when I left that day. I would say I'm certain that it wasn't there."

Kyron Horman Update: School Groundskeeper Never Saw Stepmom's Truck on Day Ore. Boy Vanished

Investigators Appeal for Witnesses to Trace Movements of Vehicle, Stepmom Terri Horman

www.cbsnews.com

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Her DUI also involved child endangerment. At the very least, that is probably why she was never able to get a teaching job.

Yes, but there is a huge difference between recklessness (driving drunk) and actual malice (kidnapping and murdering her own child). Doing one thing does not indicate propensity for the other. It's not a gauge that if you fill it up with enough Does Bad Things it crosses the line into Capable of Murder.

If (from before she became a suspect) there were accounts of her hurting children? Even torturing or killing small animals? That would be relevant.

What about the lurid affair with Kaine's old friend 3-weeks after Kyron's disappearance and providing him Kaine's strictly confidential address? Law enforcement called her sexual escapades part of her MO. Apparently, she had used a similar modus operandi with the landscaper. And there has been discussion of her involvement in another murder-for-hire plot when she wasn't even out of her teens, or just barely.

And yet none of these events either occurred or were "revealed" (that second murder-for-hire plot is even more dubious than the first) until after the kidnapping. Instead of saying three weeks after Kyron's disappearance, why don't we say shortly after she was confronted with a failed sting operation, and then Kaine abandoned her and took her child with him. I don't find it strange in the slightest that Terri unravelled at that point.

What about threatening to kidnap the baby from the gym? What about the California incidents since Kyron's disappearance that were newsworthy? Examples: stealing a vehicle, having a stolen gun in her possession, and holding a kitchen knife to her boyfriend's neck. I'm probably missing some.

It's her baby! Wasn't the idea that she didn't fight for her baby, and that showed she was guilty? Also, more events that postdate her life collapsing around her, with her unable to do anything about it. Was she even convicted of any of the California incidents?

It can't be denied that these all show disrespect for the rules of society and a predilection towards crimes of violence.

Or it shows a woman who has had her family destroyed, one child kidnapped, the other taken by the father. Being painted a villain in front of the whole world by law enforcement and media, and being unable to defend herself. LE dangling suspicion over her for a decade without actually charging her, while letting Kaine and Desiree slander her from here to tomorrow. Having all her dirty laundry aired for the world to see, and harassed at home and at work by Desiree, Desiree's husband's cop buddies and her disturbed social media followers.

But whatever issues she had when she uprooted to California hasn't seemed to continue. Perhaps she has found some measurement of peace.

Just to be clear, the second is "The fact that Terri places herself with Kyron shortly before he disappeared." She certainly did place herself with him. She took the now iconic photo of Kyron at 8:45 am inside his classroom. At 8:50 am, they were seen walking side by side through the school parking lot. The vehicle was not parked in the school parking lot where she had said it was but instead was parked on the gravel road on the west side of the school where the elevation drops, partially concealing the vehicle. And that is strange, IMO.

So the idea that the photo was taken at 8:45, and that several witnesses saw them walk out of the school together both come from Desiree, claims she only began to make years later. I have never seen anyone else confirm them, and the former is pretty obviously false. There has also never been confirmation that Terri's car was parked on the access road.

The ping does nothing to support her whereabouts. For one thing, we can't say for sure who had her cell phone that day. My understanding is that someone was trying to call her and the call went unanswered.

Who knows? But it's yet another aspect that fits her story but not the police's (remember, they thought the ping placed her on the island itself).

But the time of the ping does fall within the 90-minutes she can't account for. However, it is doubtful that the location of the tower places her in the area where she said she was. But she was driving, so maybe.

Why is it doubtful?

Also falling within those same 90-minutes is yet another of those pesky, unreliable eyewitnesses who told LE that the F250 was seen pulled over on a fire trail off Newberry Road. And this had enough weight to it that it caused Terri to add to her story that she may have stopped around there somewhere to change a diaper but she couldn't be sure. She had no idea what she might have done with the soiled diaper.

If that is true, it's just another point in her favor. She said she drove on rural roads and her truck was spotted on one of those rural roads.

Now this is a relatively young woman, hopefully not stricken with Alzheimer's disease. She surely would have to have some memory of where she drove and where she stopped during a 90-minute interval. She had her 18-month-old daughter with her. The word responsibility comes to my mind.

The words "I wonder if something was going on at the time that might distract her from perfectly remembering every single detail that she no doubt had not seen any reason to memorize" come to my mind. Still, astonishingly, every provable detail she provided to the police was proved.

Law enforcement twice took her back to the area where she said she was in hopes of jogging her memory, but, nope, it didn't help.

It would be a very good thing for her to be able to prove where she was during those 90-missing-minutes on the day her stepson would seemingly vanish. (After he was seen leaving the school with her). So why can't she? Why won't she?

I honestly don't know how to make it more clear. Unless there are witnesses that come forward, driving on rural roads where there are no CCTV cameras or stores that can provide receipts, means she can't do anything to prove exactly where she was. It's not as if she had a destination in mind either; her focus was on calming her daughter. It didn't matter if it was Old Germantown Road or Skyline Boulevard or Newberry Road.

Witnesses can come forward and say they saw her. She can't control that. She can't ensure every single place she visited that morning was surveilled.

It's not a matter of "won't".

Not at all. There is that strange matter of the partially concealed vehicle. What was going on there?

No reason to believe it was concealed, partially or not.

How much time existed between when she exited the field of the witness's vision and when she pulled out onto the highway driving the F250? She would only need a few minutes. To harm him? To pass him off? She is just as guilty if she passed Kyron off to someone.

The half-mile between the school and the highway? That goes through an open landscape with farms and houses fully in view? That's where she did her clandestine deed?

Could another adult have been waiting in the vehicle? After all, if she parked in the school parking lot, how did the vehicle get to the partially concealed area of the gravel road?

It didn't. It wasn't on the access road.

Are the 90-missing-minutes she won't explain because she had to meet the "someone" she had passed Kyron off to, but first she had to set up her "tight" alibi? Her early emails to friends show that she wanted everyone to believe Kyron went missing between 9 am and 10 am. The big hole in her timeline starts at approximately 10 minutes past 10 o'clock on the morning of June 4, 2010.

It's not a matter of wanting everyone to believe. She left the school just before nine. At ten Kyron was marked as absent by his teacher. Whatever happened, had to have happened in that time.

What about the strange parking positions at both Fred Meyers? It would have been to her advantage to show that Kyron's booster seat was empty and that she was alone (with the exception of having her baby with her).

How do you know they were strange? Has the police released the CCTV images? Even if the lots were empty, parking further from the store is hardly strange if you're driving a larger vehicle than usual.

I don't believe for a moment she was trying to conceal the presence of an alive and well Kyron sitting up alertly in his booster seat. If he was in that vehicle at that time he was under a tarp or in a recycling bin of some sort.

She would have had no time or opportunity to do that.

Yes, her car never left the flower farm on Old Germantown Road and her known cell phone inexplicably was locked inside it. But both the ping area and the witness sighting of the F250 on NW Newberry Road are within a driving time range for Terri to have picked DeDe up and reached the gym by 11:39 am. IIRC, wasn't she working near an old hot house on the back end of the property that day? A pretty easy location from which to slip away unseen and then return, equally unseen.

The gym is more than 10 minutes driving distance from the farm and 11:39 is the sign in time, not the arrival time. I wouldn't call that within time range.

It does, indeed, leave us with the evidence. Which none of us are privy to. IMO, based on what we know which is what you are also doing, Terri, or someone else acting on her behalf, could certainly have killed Kyron before 10:10 am.

I really don't see how.

8:45 am, she leaves the school with the baby.

9-10 minutes drive down to Hillsboro on highway 27, through mostly open landscapes with no time or place to hurt Kyron.

9:12 am, she gets a receipt at the first Fred Meyer. She's had ca 10-15 minutes in the store.

10 minutes drive to second Fred Meyer, within an urban area.

9:30-10:00 am, CCTV and eyewitnesses place her at second Fred Meyer and dry cleaner.

6 minutes drive to Michael's craft store, within an urban area.

10:10 am, she's at Michael's, last time given by LE.

Those margins are razor thin, and she's moving entirely through habitated areas, first open farmland with plenty of houses, then the urban areas of Hillsboro and Beaverton. There simply isn't any time or place that she could have performed the deed.

 

[sketchyjen33]

Here's a question that I've brought up before. IF the baby was so upset and needed "soothing", was she fine throughout the whole morning of walking around at school and then at Fred Meyer's? No one has ever said "ugh the baby was just screaming her head off". And don't tell me "she was probably fine until after all the commotion". Have you been in a Wal-Mart lately??? Babies don't calm down because there are people around. So my observation is....I don't think the reasoning behind the driving around is valid. Plus the fact that no one at the gym can say the baby was upset either (AFAIK). They do however report that TH has fresh wound on one of her legs, that AFAIK hasn't been discussed by anyone. (Shovel mishap?? Caught up in a vine?? But then why doesn't she look disheveled/dirty to employees?)

DDS's workplace was in the exact area that TH claimed to be driving around. To me, that means a high probability that TH could have picked up DDS from the backside of the farm where it was reported that she was working without anyone noticing and leaving her car and phone there.

Again, I come back to the thinking that most teachers and admins at a school can tell who belongs and who doesn't. Going back to the 70s school disappearance linked in an earlier post, a student and a teacher were able to describe a man seen in the school that didn't belong. I just can't buy that some stranger (or a student's family member) just walked in and snatched a kid with NO ONE seeing anything. There's too many scenarios where this person would have been found and at least looked suspicious at some point, i.e. lurking around a corner, waiting for Terri to be out of sight and catch Kyron at the EXACT moment before he turned into the classroom and no one would see him/her and Kyron walking out the doors. It's just too improbable. Think about it. That's the only place that someone COULD have grabbed him. Between doorways from one class to another (like 25 ft) and then just casually walk past the doorways crossing your fingers that NO ONE steps out or sees you go by. Plus the windows.

I don't believe that the police focused exclusively on TH at the beginning BUT once they started diving deeper into family questioning, of course she's going to be the first person of interest. She was the last known person to see him, and she had the most interactions with him that day/on a daily basis, and she's the stepmom (regardless of how long she "raised" him and she could have been THE BEST STEPMOM), she would know his routines, she would know his behaviors up until that moment, and she would know who he interacted with on a daily basis--i.e. friends, teachers. When she has unaccounted time on that same day and her answers become nondescript....they have to start focusing on her, getting into her background, her routines, her behaviors up until that point and after.

Yes, the times are thin between the school and the first Fred Meyer BUT we have no idea if he was awake in his booster seat in the truck that was parked at an angle in the back of the parking lot that no one would really have a reason to be walking by unless they were parked in the space next to her. BUT also, if she wasn't a regular truck driver, I can understand parking in the back of the lot away from other cars. Would he draw attention to himself in the back of that truck? I don't think so. Would he be completely hidden by the door....I don't think so either but I'm not entirely sure.



MOO, MHO, JMO...all the opinions

 

[Alleykins]

Worth reposting, IMHO

Terri Moulton Horman: Kyron Horman's stepmother is a profile in contradictions

The missing boy's stepmother, focus of the inquiry into his disappearance, is described as a giver and a taker, caring but controlling, sweet but manipulative.

www.oregonlive.com

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Here's a question that I've brought up before. IF the baby was so upset and needed "soothing", was she fine throughout the whole morning of walking around at school and then at Fred Meyer's? No one has ever said "ugh the baby was just screaming her head off". And don't tell me "she was probably fine until after all the commotion". Have you been in a Wal-Mart lately??? Babies don't calm down because there are people around. So my observation is....I don't think the reasoning behind the driving around is valid. Plus the fact that no one at the gym can say the baby was upset either (AFAIK).

We do actually have a witness that said the baby was sick, Andrea Leckey who ran into Terri at the second Fred Meyer between 9:30 and 10:00 am.

At the time of their Fred Meyer encounter, Leckey said she was being polite and making chit-chat because she knew Horman's daughter was not feeling well.

We don't really know how the baby was acting. There are plenty of ways a baby can act when not feeling well, some louder and more noticable than others. But it doesn't have to have been at "screaming her head off"-level.

 

[DFWNF]

We do actually have a witness that said the baby was sick, Andrea Leckey who ran into Terri at the second Fred Meyer between 9:30 and 10:00 am.



We don't really know how the baby was acting. There are plenty of ways a baby can act when not feeling well, some louder and more noticable than others. But it doesn't have to have been at "screaming her head off"-level.

Do we know how Andrea Leckey knew the baby was sick? I only saw a brief mention. Did Terri tell her that?

 

[Boxer]

MOO she is a suspect because she is last to see Kyron. And typical to child killing there was conflict at home. So she fits the square.
But obviously they have not gathered convincing evidence.
I always wondered if the took the time time to walk dogs the entire route she drove.
5 ft off an Oregon road into the tree line there can be 10ft deep of forest litter, and not visited by a human for a decade.
Water is even a better hiding place.
Police should have eliminated all the places on her route as best they could. But I wonder if they actually walked the route.

in general there appears to be a lot less evidence here that the last person to see the victim is the perpetrator than in Suzanne Morphews disappearance.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Do we know how Andrea Leckey knew the baby was sick? I only saw a brief mention. Did Terri tell her that?

Not that I know of. I've only seen Ms Leckey state it in observational terms ("the baby being sick in her arms"), never implying that Terri told her. This is just speculative, I know, but given Ms Leckey's efforts to make the event seem strange, if the baby didn't seem sick I think she would have pounced on that contradiction.

 

[OddOneOut]

MOO she is a suspect because she is last to see Kyron. And typical to child killing there was conflict at home. So she fits the square.
But obviously they have not gathered convincing evidence.
I always wondered if the took the time time to walk dogs the entire route she drove.
5 ft off an Oregon road into the tree line there can be 10ft deep of forest litter, and not visited by a human for a decade.
Water is even a better hiding place.
Police should have eliminated all the places on her route as best they could. But I wonder if they actually walked the route.

in general there appears to be a lot less evidence here that the last person to see the victim is the perpetrator than in Suzanne Morphews disappearance.

We don't know that she is the "last to see Kyron." There were other reports from classmates that contradicted that.

 

[Boxer]

I did not know that. i last heard there was one student who thought she saw him.