Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.12.17 - Final Charge - *Verdict Watch*

[Grey-St]

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2017/12/my-sweet-serial-killer-wrote-dellen-millards-girlfriend.html

Incase it hasn't been shared here...

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[FONT=&quot]In her notes, Noudga also made a list of what she believed to be the potentially damning evidence against her boyfriend. One of the more gruesome and still inexplicable things she wrote was “limbs cut off without hesitation.”[/FONT]

I just might vomit. She knows things that we don't.

 

[redwing7225]

These ethical questions have been largely discussed before in legal circles. If you read up on the Bernardo/Homolka case, and the ethical dilemmas their defence lawyers faced, it's quite interesting.

IMO, there are many defence lawyers that I do respect, but my respect is lessening in regards to TD. The more information that comes out, the more I believe that MS spewed lies on the stand in the TB trial, for one. He was "scared" of DM, and didn't want anything to do with the incinerator? He was pretty jolly to use the thing on LB previously. No one had ever been hurt before TB? Lie. And then TD in this trial, stating that they were burning a deer, yet we know that to be a blatant lie also, and even that his clients admitted when TB was "gone, gone" that it wasn't the first time they used the incinerator on someone. TD knew of this information, but benefited from it being inadmissible. It just doesn't sit right with me.

Can't dispute your post at all....my only question would be (as bolded), is it possible that they did burn a deer, after LB? I ask this 'cause then TD wouldn't be lying, just omitting another truth. The other thing about them possibly burning a deer...an animal of that size is far closer to the size of an adult male. Keep in mind LB was thin and they didn't get that burn correct.
that just made me ill to type again, just my opinion on the "deer" that was mentioned

 

[andreww]

Marlena Meneses is nothing like Christina Noudga. Meneses showed genuine remorse and testified honestly. I believe she is in large part responsible for the first degree murder verdict for Smich in the Bosma case. The Crown replayed her testimony over and over at that trial because they understood how genuinely powerful it was. Say what you will about her smiling at Smich's sister's wedding, she did the right thing in the end and appears to have learned her lesson and gotten her life on track

Her initial lies to police -- that she didn't know about the incinerator -- are understandable IMO. She wanted to distance herself from an appalling crime. It was the same thing she did with the gun on the witness stand at this trial before correcting herself almost immediately. She is ashamed. She is nothing like Noudga, who has never shown an ounce of remorse and never done the right thing.

Likewise, Michalski was nowhere near as bad as Smich. Millard sensed this too. Although he groomed Michalski for years and the latter was willing to run thieving missions, he wasn't willing to murder. Only Smich was.

That gang was filled with amoral people with no sense of right and wrong but they weren't all "just as bad." There are degrees. I don't believe anyone but Noudga knew Millard and Smich wanted to kill people and actually did.

ABro, why do you think MM begged Smich not to go on the TB mission? Obviously they had been on many of them before, so what made that one different? The only explanation could be that she had some prior knowledge about what was happening. This girl was present at LBs murder. She was present for her cremation. She was with DM and MS as they returned from murdering/cremating TB. What did she have to tell us about any of these events? They seemed happy? My feeling is that she is telling the truth but that she is omitting anything that shows her prior knowledge.

I don't care what anyone says, if a boyfriend admits to his girlfriend that he has killed and burned two people, she should run and not announce her plans to marry the guy. That in itself shows me the kind of person she is, and those are the kinds of traits that you cannot change in a person. Either you know right from wrong or you don't. But when you are a cute little girl you can fool a lot of people with a few tears.

 

[clefk27]

Marlena Meneses is nothing like Christina Noudga. Meneses showed genuine remorse and testified honestly. I believe she is in large part responsible for the first degree murder verdict for Smich in the Bosma case. The Crown replayed her testimony over and over at that trial because they understood how genuinely powerful it was. Say what you will about her smiling at Smich's sister's wedding, she did the right thing in the end and appears to have learned her lesson and gotten her life on track

Her initial lies to police -- that she didn't know about the incinerator -- are understandable IMO. She wanted to distance herself from an appalling crime. It was the same thing she did with the gun on the witness stand at this trial before correcting herself almost immediately. She is ashamed. She is nothing like Noudga, who has never shown an ounce of remorse and never done the right thing.

Likewise, Michalski was nowhere near as bad as Smich. Millard sensed this too. Although he groomed Michalski for years and the latter was willing to run thieving missions, he wasn't willing to murder. Only Smich was.

That gang was filled with amoral people with no sense of right and wrong but they weren't all "just as bad." There are degrees. I don't believe anyone but Noudga knew Millard and Smich wanted to kill people and actually did.

Agree 100% with all of above.

 

[Grey-St]

Can't dispute your post at all....my only question would be (as bolded), is it possible that they did burn a deer, after LB? I ask this 'cause then TD wouldn't be lying, just omitting another truth. The other thing about them possibly burning a deer...an animal of that size is far closer to the size of an adult male. Keep in mind LB was thin and they didn't get that burn correct.
that just made me ill to type again, just my opinion on the "deer" that was mentioned

I believe TD was stating that on July 23rd, DM and MS were burning a deer. With his knowledge of all things deemed inadmissible, I believe he knew that was untrue.

 

[Jasper52]

Lisa Hepfner@HefCHCHNews

Back in Toronto for #LauraBabcock jury deliberations. Jury has been at work since about 9am. They want more copies of the judge's 300+ page charge. Court photocopier problems prevented them from each getting a copy yesterday.

 

[redwing7225]

I don't care what anyone says, if a boyfriend admits to his girlfriend that he has killed and burned two people, she should run and not announce her plans to marry the guy. That in itself shows me the kind of person she is, and those are the kinds of traits that you cannot change in a person. Either you know right from wrong or you don't. But when you are a cute little girl you can fool a lot of people with a few tears.

This...this right here! 100% agree with this. As mentioned by many others, so much **** hasn't been said from the people that surrounded DM and MS and therefore, in my opinion, they get tossed into the same basket as the two in trial.
Stepping back to the TB truck, sitting in the hanger, are you kidding me...the truck was coated inside and out with blood, and yet SS was working around it, and thought nothing of the situation?!? All for what, a paycheque? Never in a million years did I believe that people would be so ignorant to facts, turn a blind eye and just walk away...some even still protecting these 2 by not saying more of what they know.
I guess they are the ones that have to live with themselves, it's unfortunate they walk among us.
All my opinion

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

[winter2017]

The bank can be court ordered to garnish her current/future wages. It's a special kind of hell that she likely deserves.

Yes they can garnish her earnings and if it is a big judgement it could take a long time.
I wonder if DM s mom is helping her out. Who paid for her very high priced lawyer and also she is still going to school so school debt.
If she comes back here and once the lawsuit is settled and she is working she will have to pay the judgement , yah. I also hope that the courts will reverse that DM handed over his assets to his mom and the money goes to the Bosma and if he is convicted of Laura s death , the Babcock family.

 

[winter2017]

This...this right here! 100% agree with this. As mentioned by many others, so much **** hasn't been said from the people that surrounded DM and MS and therefore, in my opinion, they get tossed into the same basket as the two in trial.
Stepping back to the TB truck, sitting in the hanger, are you kidding me...the truck was coated inside and out with blood, and yet SS was working around it, and thought nothing of the situation?!? All for what, a paycheque? Never in a million years did I believe that people would be so ignorant to facts, turn a blind eye and just walk away...some even still protecting these 2 by not saying more of what they know.
I guess they are the ones that have to live with themselves, it's unfortunate they walk among us.
All my opinion

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Yes this is a very disturbing case because of how many knew things and said nothing. They aided DM , it is one of the worst cases that I know of because of how many knew things and said nothing.
We can just be grateful that some good people did come forward like Igor and help the police.
The guy at the hangar he phoned crimestoppers but he did not give the location of where the truck was.
By the time the police got to the hangar the truck was gone.
It was Igor that was the biggest break IMO , his sharp observation of the tattoo. It makes we think that it is good to be observant.

 

[Grey-St]

This...this right here! 100% agree with this. As mentioned by many others, so much **** hasn't been said from the people that surrounded DM and MS and therefore, in my opinion, they get tossed into the same basket as the two in trial.
Stepping back to the TB truck, sitting in the hanger, are you kidding me...the truck was coated inside and out with blood, and yet SS was working around it, and thought nothing of the situation?!? All for what, a paycheque? Never in a million years did I believe that people would be so ignorant to facts, turn a blind eye and just walk away...some even still protecting these 2 by not saying more of what they know.
I guess they are the ones that have to live with themselves, it's unfortunate they walk among us.
All my opinion

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

I see what you're saying for the most part. Especially when it comes to SS. His involvement and loyalty is unsettling.

I just don't put MM in that category. She gave up a ton of information, many statements were given to LE. Some information was deemed inadmissible in court ruled by the Judge, that's not her fault. She wasn't allowed to speak to it on the stand.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

The 3500 text message was disallowed in the TB trial, BUT Craig Fraser alluded to it when he was cross-examining MS:

“The plan that you and Dellen Millard had was to steal, was to kill and was to burn,” Fraser said to Smich, who has been testifying in his own defence for two weeks.

It was a plan worked on for more than a year and it was “a plan executed with chilling precision,” the prosecutor said.

“The Eliminator, so chillingly referred to as ‘a BBQ,’ was, in fact, the last piece of the puzzle.”

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...months-to-steal-truck-and-execute-owner-crown

It is ridiculous. It seems the timing might have been an issue.

I

Thanks both Billandrew and Abo, I thought we at least heard that during the TB trial. Been so long that it’s not till I see things like this that I remember the tidbits.

 

[deugirtni]

What is even more intriguing is that the incinerator had enough propane for two full burns, or eight hours. So SS filled it after LB when he smelled something at the farm. Didn't they have to refill it again before they burned TB at the hangar? I seem to recall Millard taking it for propane? So what were they burning with that thing?

One has to wonder if they didn't have practice. One of the news stories yesterday said that DM had responded to his cousin when asked what he'd been up to, 'killing hookers'. How easy would it be to pick up a homeless person with an offer of a bath and dinner, and let that person become a test run? What was the rush about getting the gun(s) at various times? It sure wouldn't surprise me to someday find out that there are a few more victims.

 

[redwing7225]

I see what you're saying for the most part. Especially when it comes to SS. His involvement and loyalty is unsettling.

I just don't put MM in that category. She gave up a ton of information, many statements were given to LE. Some information was deemed inadmissible in court ruled by the Judge, that's not her fault. She wasn't allowed to speak to it on the stand.

I respectively appreciate your feedback regarding the MM information and statements given to LE
In your opinion, was she aware of the LB murder prior to TB?


Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

[tommyR]

I find it particularly fascinating to think about what criminal defence lawyers should do when they know their client is guilty. No matter what, the lawyer should strive to ensure their client has a fair trial. But when a lawyer knows for certain their client is guilty, how hard should they fight to sway a jury otherwise? IMHO there are some interesting ethical questions there.

I suspect you learn very fast that if you want to be a successful criminal defence lawyer you need to check your ethics, morals, conscience etc. All that matters is winning - provided you keep in good standing with the bar association. If you want to contribute to the betterment of society you should be on the other side.

 

[JuneBug67]

RBBM. Like I've always said, you're entitled to your opinion, and I likely will never change it, but I just don't agree at all.

You don't know much about MM and her personal circumstances that led her to not immediately run. She eventually came to her senses and greatly aided in justice being served. You don't know that that people can't change, yet you state it as fact. People grow and learn from their experiences every day. And lastly, your "cute little girl" comment reeks of misogyny. It's as if you think she "got away with murder" because she's a woman, and it's quite unbecoming.

RBBM. It's not a belief without support in the mainstream. Christie Blatchford pretty much makes a living being a misogynist in this vein. She (and Conrad Black) twice caused me to stop paying for the National Post. I want to support journalism, but there is only so much irritation one can stand.

 

[winter2017]

RBBM. Like I've always said, you're entitled to your opinion, and I likely will never change it, but I just don't agree at all.

You don't know much about MM and her personal circumstances that led her to not immediately run. She eventually came to her senses and greatly aided in justice being served. You don't know that that people can't change, yet you state it as fact. People grow and learn from their experiences every day. And lastly, your "cute little girl" comment reeks of misogyny. It's as if you think she "got away with murder" because she's a woman, and it's quite unbecoming.

She is not the innocent person she made herself out to be. It is an act and she is good at it.
You can buy it all you want I don't at all. She is lucky that MS did not spill more about her, that is my opinion.
Maybe she is scared now to see where she could end up if she kept on the path she was going , that she could end up in prison, so she is too scared to continue on as she was.
Who knows and who cares. I could care less if she has seen the light or not. In all the photos of her with MS she looked very happy and having a good time even with the stuff she knew that he was doing, the drugs etc.
She is far , far from the innocent person she tried to portray.

 

[Grey-St]

I respectively appreciate your feedback regarding the MM information and statements given to LE
In your opinion, was she aware of the LB murder prior to TB?


Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

IMO, I don't think she did. When MS confessed to her that TB was "gone, gone" he also confessed that it wasn't the first time he killed and burned a body. I think that's likely when she maybe put it together, and that's what she subsequently told LE. Unfortunately, it wasn't admissible in court, for reasons I have yet to understand.

 

[Jasper52]

Lisa Hepfner@HefCHCHNews

The jury also wants a copy of the transcript of all three closing statements, from the crown, #Millard and #Smich.

Judge believes this is a fair request from the jury, and appropriate under the law. But the transcripts haven't been ordered yet. Except Millard's, he ordered his but it didn't come yet. Dungey would prefer the jury get an audio copy so they get his full drama. Court laughs

If the jury wants transcripts right away they'd have to be played in court, which would take two days. Judge is going to see how long it will take to produce transcripts. He wouldn't be surprised if the jury remains out all day, he says.

 

[Errrr]

While driving along the QEW late at night I imagine I'm seeing the same thing DM saw so many times. I'm grateful to be alive and imagine DM who will never feel the grip of a steering wheel in his hands again. Never see the lights of Toronto approaching in the dark as snow falls on the windshield of a warm truck cruising along with the radio on. At that hour, he's packed in on his thin mattress (no pillow top for him), with a ceiling light perpetually on. He's looking forward to a breakfast of Tang and boiled oatmeal. He will never again experience the privilege of flight, in his own airplane or helicopter. I hope people write him to tell him about the wonderful things they are experiencing in their lives. He could read them as he chows down on the equivalent of steamed TV dinner every single night for the rest of his life.

 

[clefk27]

I see what you're saying for the most part. Especially when it comes to SS. His involvement and loyalty is unsettling.

I just don't put MM in that category. She gave up a ton of information, many statements were given to LE. Some information was deemed inadmissible in court ruled by the Judge, that's not her fault. She wasn't allowed to speak to it on the stand.

It was MM’s comments about DM and MS’s celebratory mood the morning after the TB murder that sealed the deal in that trial. She didn’t have to volunteer that info. Others were far more coy. But she did and she stuck to that description of events even under aggressive cross.
Her testimony was as vital as Igor’s keen eye in spotting and remembering that tattoo. MOO