Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath - The Conversation Continues

[katydid23]

He didn't beat up, stalk, harass and psychologically abuse people when he was a child though. He did that as a fully grown adult with power. He was one of the leaders of this cult and has shown little sorrow for what he consciously chose to do.

If we are going to excuse things that fully adult people with power do because of their childhoods does that apply to everyone, not just cult members?

I understand what you are saying about childhoods and not using it as an excuse.

But I do think that growing up in a cult is a significant factor in how one acts, while working for that cult.

I agree that we cannot excuse adult sexual offenders, who use the excuse of being sexually abused themselves. We cannot go down that road and allow adults to shrug off responsibility for their own actions.

But MR was taught as a young child, that he needed to defend himself and his family and his fellow scientologists from the evil world who was trying to destroy them. His actions were reprehensible, and he has admitted as much. He is not proud of his deeds.

But it was never personal power he was trying to gain. He was trying to protect Scientology, his 'spiritual father.'

Here is an interesting interview with him. I think it portrays him pretty well:

[video=youtube;27ru1jKcPpc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27ru1jKcPpc[/video]

Mike Rinder Exclusive Interview On The Macron Show

 

[gitana1]

I understand what you are saying about childhoods and not using it as an excuse.

But I do think that growing up in a cult is a significant factor in how one acts, while working for that cult.

I agree that we cannot excuse adult sexual offenders, who use the excuse of being sexually abused themselves. We cannot go down that road and allow adults to shrug off responsibility for their own actions.

But MR was taught as a young child, that he needed to defend himself and his family and his fellow scientologists from the evil world who was trying to destroy them. His actions were reprehensible, and he has admitted as much. He is not proud of his deeds.

But it was never personal power he was trying to gain. He was trying to protect Scientology, his 'spiritual father.'

Here is an interesting interview with him. I think it portrays him pretty well:

[video=youtube;27ru1jKcPpc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27ru1jKcPpc[/video]

Mike Rinder Exclusive Interview On The Macron Show

To me it's hypocritical to excuse this man, because of his upbringing but not other criminals. What makes his childhood worse than a sexual offender who was molested? Or a kid who murders someone or attacks someone or whatever, who came from abuse and neglect?

I hope this show is atonement for him. I know it's a paycheck. I've seen many of his interviews. He's candid but I've never really gotten a truly remorseful vibe from him. And I've seen the things he did to people and heard about it. He wasn't a small child. He was a fully grown man. Middle aged.

Finally, I doubt his victims would come forward. They're mostly still in it.

I believe this guy gets a pass because he's delivering a message we like about a cult we despise. But I have my reservations about the man.

 

[katydid23]

To me it's hypocritical to excuse this man, because of his upbringing but not other criminals. What makes his childhood worse than a sexual offender who was molested? Or a kid who murders someone or attacks someone or whatever, who came from abuse and neglect?

I hope this show is atonement for him. I know it's a paycheck. I've seen many of his interviews. He's candid but I've never really gotten a truly remorseful vibe from him. And I've seen the things he did to people and heard about it. He wasn't a small child. He was a fully grown man. Middle aged.

Finally, I doubt his victims would come forward. They're mostly still in it.

I believe this guy gets a pass because he's delivering a message we like about a cult we despise. But I have my reservations about the man.

One of the things he has talked about, for example in the interview I linked, was that the cult shaped and molded children to be 'non-compassionate.' Being guarded and closed off was the 'proper' way to be, as a scientologist. And he spoke about having that as his current lesson---to try and be more connected and compassionate.

I don't think it is hypocritical to differentiate between a child, separated from their parents, and raised in a Scientologist boarding school, and someone who was beaten or spanked and mistreated by one's family in childhood.

I was sexually assaulted by my uncle, our after school baby sitter, from age 5 to about 8 or 9. It was traumatic, and I did act out sexually as a child and I was promiscuous as a teen because of the chaos and confusion. But he was just ONE PERSON that influenced my life. I had wonderful parents and grandparents and cousins and teachers that were supportive and loving and did not ever abuse me. So I had no excuse to become an adult that sexually abused children because I knew it was wrong.

But a child who is sent to live TOTALLY and completely surrounded and submerged in Scientology, with no other influences, on other voices, no other points of view---they are totally brainwashed and I cannot blame someone for doing what they are told as an adult.

I only had my uncle teaching me wrong things. But I had 98% of the people around me showing me the right things to do.

A child in a scientology boarding school has no other input, no other way to view the world. So I am not going to judge them as harshly as I do someone who was mistreated as child, but has other influences, that still ends up choosing to be a criminal.

 

[Safeguard]

To me it's hypocritical to excuse this man, because of his upbringing but not other criminals. What makes his childhood worse than a sexual offender who was molested? Or a kid who murders someone or attacks someone or whatever, who came from abuse and neglect?

I hope this show is atonement for him. I know it's a paycheck. I've seen many of his interviews. He's candid but I've never really gotten a truly remorseful vibe from him. And I've seen the things he did to people and heard about it. He wasn't a small child. He was a fully grown man. Middle aged.

Finally, I doubt his victims would come forward. They're mostly still in it.

I believe this guy gets a pass because he's delivering a message we like about a cult we despise. But I have my reservations about the man.

Well said.

I think Rinder has a Psychopathic personality. Not only do I not get a remorseful vibe form him, there are things he has said, and shown... that indicate that he is in fact, proud of his "role' and status within Scientology, even when he knew full well that what he was doing was heinous and criminal.

I don't feel he is being humanitarian now, so much as he is enjoying getting revenge on David M.

It reminds me a lot of the movie Goodfellows". Where Henry Hill recounts his role in the Mafia, he was indoctrinated as a child, but he clearly enjoyed his villainous "work", and his personal make-up was one that allowed him to justify what he did (Psychopathic). Only when he realized his "Leader"(s) were out to kill him, did he then turn states evidence.

This is exactly what I think Mike Rinder is doing. To a Tee. Imo.

Not so much with Leah, as Mike has even stated that she was not aware of the level of corruption that he was privy to while they were both still "In", but I do feel she has a level of cognitive dissonance between what is excusable behavior for herself and those she associates with, but not excusable in those she deems immoral ect...

It's extremely unpopular to look at this docudrama with a critical eye as Hive Mentality is singling it's praises all over the web right now, (but I think that's going to change if season two continues on its current trajectory of over edited, heavily scripted, emotionally manipulative, biased coverage).

 

[Safeguard]

I watched several you tube videos of Mike Rinder. A series of interviews that he did... and I now must admit, that although I still feel revulsion for his behavior towards others, I realize that I cannot possibly understand the effects that his conditioning had on him personally. That is to say, I can only imagine, the effects that those same circumstances may have had on myself, and I cannot imagine myself doing to others, what he did. But I can not say for certain, that I would not have done those (or perhaps worse) things.

Much like the average person cannot understand how an innocent person could confess to a murder they didn't commit, but there is ample evidence of that phenomena given the right circumstances... I would like to believe that I would never behave like he did, but experience is the biggest killer of theory, as the saying goes, and I must admit I have no idea what effect his life circumstances would have on me, and I can only hope I never really know...

At one point, in this clip I linked below, where he is explaining how the humiliation, beatings or what-have-you, that he inflicted, was not only so that he himself could survive, (the nightmarish alter-reality that was his existence, is what I am understanding), another day, but he states that he also felt he was, "helping" his victim avoid possibly even more extreme consequences in some twisted belief ( hey there's a good new name for Scientology right there Ha!), that they would get back on track afterward.

In this one clip he admits that he cannot even explain the dreadful totality of what he lived, even to himself, but he gives it what seems to me, to be a good shot, where one can at least catch a glimpse of the utter insanity and confusion that is the daily bread of those ensnared in this cult. I no longer feel quite as certain that he was born lacking empathy. He may well have had to discard it to survive, much like the plight of battered spouses or children. I only hope going forward that they give these same thoughtful considerations to those still ensnared in the cult, as that strikes me as a weakness in the docudrama.

[video]https://youtu.be/4rfUlL0_TCQ[/video]

 

[teddeshred]

Ok...So, I avoided watching The Aftermath (after having been sucked into Making A Murderer), for a couple reasons...

For one thing, I saw Going Clear, had read plenty about the (ahhmmm), "Church" of Scientology and compelling as the evidence of cultism is, Nothing. Ever. Changed. The COS just rolled right along, enjoying it's tax-exempt status. Secondly, I felt the victims of the COS signed up for the ride, I honestly never thought about those who might have been born into it...

I first heard about LRH through the commercials on TV. Started reading Dianetics, and thought, " oh boy! this guy is a genius! Got less than half way through, and went, " Oh man! This guy is insane! Researching LRH led me to Alister Crowley. Well, well, well...

I finally binge watched season 1. ( and what little there is of season 2), Here are my observations:

What I find outstanding about the series, is that they are shedding light on, and really clarifying, the tactics of abusers of all shapes and sizes. So many people who leave abusive relationships, of ANY kind, often face the harsh glare of condemnation for having been in that predicament at all... " why did you stay so long? Why did you get involved at all? Why did you not see, what is so obvious to "the rest of us"? You must have done something to "deserve" this.

People need to believe this could never happen to them. I was one of those people. But once you are "kicked off the Boat Dock of complacency, so to speak, you can never go back to the innocent believe that "Bad things happen to "Other People", people who have "DONE SOMETHING" to deserve their misfortune. Or who could have avoided it, but didn't have the common sense, or fortitude to do so. The truth is, all of us have a weak link in our armor somewhere.

Abusers are predators that easily spot weakness. ( "Like A Lion Spots A Limp"). Anything at all will do. Even the simple belief,
"I think I could be a better person" is exploitable.

As for the show...

I'm gonna put it right out there, (as usual), and say that I dislike Mike Rinder. I'm glad that he's no longer torturing people, but I have no doubt that he took pride in it, when he was doing it, and he had to have known that it was immoral and/or criminal. .Anyone who has" knowingly" abused others, in the name of Scientology,or not, should have to answer for that. ( And not just with a hit TV show and all kinds of accolades).

Rinder knew what he was doing, he reports what he did, in such a way that leaves no doubt that he was aware of the plot. And I have seen him look almost... proud, when some of his exploits are being reveled.

He wasn't "brainwashed" into thinking he was a "doing good" the whole time. You can clearly see that.

Leah Remini seems different in that respect, at least. Rinder is even pointing out, "Leah didn't know about this, or that... ( But HE did).

I am also frankly uncomfortable with Mike and Leahs "Work" relationship.

I find it very inappropriate for a married man. Leah has made references such as, we're up all night talking, we eat breakfast together, lunch, coffee, dinner.... "I'm always calling mike, we're always saying this and that....It is almost as if this mission to save the world from the COS is more important than Mikes relationship with his wife... I find that ironic to say the least.

They are deeply intimate. There is no mistaking that. This "mission" will not bode well for Mikes marriage imo. Apparently they still cannot see, what is so very apparent to "outsiders".

I also feel the show could be improved if Leah would stop interjecting herself while victims are speaking. "I'm sure you did that because"... "I know you felt this".. "the church caused you to believe that"... I wish she would just let them tell the stories...

I was heartbroken for the young woman who wanted to voice her pain about her belief that she could have done something more to save her friend from committing suicide, but Leah cut her off, with "Don't you dare even say it!" And then went on to tell her how there was nothing she could have done, and it was not her fault ect...but she never got to speak those words. Her biggest regret. And she needed to, she TRIED to. Not letting people speak, talking over people is a huge flaw in the show.

My last observation, an admittedly petty one, I am distracted by Leah's talons. I'm surprised she has not put out an eye with those things when delicately dabbing at her under-eye area with a tissue. What is up with that?! Is that the latest style? Uhhgggg!

I hope the show is the "nail in coffin" for Scientology. I think it is one of the most important public service campaigns ever created on the topic of abuse. I love that the show is bringing a sense of humor, and hope to the very real recovery that abused people everywhere can reach for. Beyond grim survival, life can be good, and sweet and fun again.

I think that if you watch last nights round table discussion, "The Bridge to Total Freedom", it was more about how the COS recruits, and the process that one takes to be indoctrinated. It also delves in to the way the church creates a sort of mass hysteria method of teaching. That if you don't get it, then you must be a suppressive person and are forced to leave the COS. This way of teaching, will only force people to "pretend" that they are seeing the results, as advertised. And finally, explained Xenu!!

 

[katydid23]

I think that if you watch last nights round table discussion, "The Bridge to Total Freedom", it was more about how the COS recruits, and the process that one takes to be indoctrinated. It also delves in to the way the church creates a sort of mass hysteria method of teaching. That if you don't get it, then you must be a suppressive person and are forced to leave the COS. This way of teaching, will only force people to "pretend" that they are seeing the results, as advertised. And finally, explained Xenu!!

That was a really interesting round table discussion. I could not believe how much money was 'stolen' from the cultists each year. wow

 

[Bently]

I understand what you are saying about childhoods and not using it as an excuse.

But I do think that growing up in a cult is a significant factor in how one acts, while working for that cult.

I agree that we cannot excuse adult sexual offenders, who use the excuse of being sexually abused themselves. We cannot go down that road and allow adults to shrug off responsibility for their own actions.

But MR was taught as a young child, that he needed to defend himself and his family and his fellow scientologists from the evil world who was trying to destroy them. His actions were reprehensible, and he has admitted as much. He is not proud of his deeds.

But it was never personal power he was trying to gain. He was trying to protect Scientology, his 'spiritual father.'

Here is an interesting interview with him. I think it portrays him pretty well:

[video=youtube;27ru1jKcPpc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27ru1jKcPpc[/video]

Mike Rinder Exclusive Interview On The Macron Show

I listened to the entire show, thanks. At the end of the show, he talks about his blog site at mikerindersblog.org . I'm reading some of that, and the comments.

 

[LaneGirl]

I'll bring my perspective in to this. I grew up in a fundie religion. I absolutely judged people as an adult, refused to speak to them because they "betrayed" our "religion". I am 100% guilty for telling people my religion would save them and 100% guilty for judging people inside my religion.


Mike Rinder was 100% blinded by his religion. He believed what he was doing was right just as I thought I was right. The bible told me so it must be true.

I firmly believe there is a disconnect between belief and critical thinking.

Did MR do bad things yes, so did I. But you have to understand there is a "mental block" if you will when it comes to certain religions and how/what an individual is taught.

It's sucks. I will forever for the rest of my life regret bringing people into my "cult" but the gods honest truth if one believes in god I thought I was 100% helping them. sigh

 

[wonderllama]

I am really fascinated by this series. Leah and Mike are so impressive, not just in confronting their own demons and the stories behind them, but calling out this cult for what it is. Each time I see Mike tearing up, I can't imagine the anguish he must feel knowing his role in so much of the hurt the people and their families are feeling.

From my point of view, I am non-religious, atheist and yeah, a bit of a head shaker when I see how these groups (and I include all religions in this I guess) latch on to people and manipulate them in to accepting the word of people or a person. Not the word of God or Allah or whoever, the word of another person. Perhaps Scientology stands out as being more loopy because we all know the Xenu story or their practices seems to have no actual benefits to the followers, only the hierarchy.

When I think of religion, I think of control. I think of someone proclaiming a set of moral standards with the reward being the bit at the end...a place in heaven. But at least some niceness comes from the regular religions, but even that is conditional at times and that has enormously tainted my views on missionaries etc. But aside from the feeling like you belong, I see none of these "benefits" with Scientology and I think part of combating it needs to be addressing their sales pitch.

What must a person be missing in their life to independently choose to follow a religion? I'm not talking those born into religion...like most of you reading this have inherited your family's religion, which is at least understandable, but to seek out a meaning away from your family and to find it in Scientology? What's the hook? What's the "well dammit, this is better than the church down the road"?

I'm on a bit of a soapbox, sorry about that :crazy:

Anyway, it's a series I can't get enough of and I look forward to Leah and Mike continuing to talk to those affected and hopefully influence others to open their eyes and embrace reality again.

 

[illyana]

I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who believes in this demonstrable trash. Not even the "well the tech is good, Ron was wrong." No. You're dicking around with a low-grade polygraph. And polygraph machines have no business in courts or investigations, they are little more than visceral emotional gauges.

Lie detectors are trash. Scientology is trash. Wake up.

 

[SolwayFirth]

Aftermath will conclude with Remini and former high-ranking church official Mike Rinder‘s two-hour special filmed in front of a live studio audience (airing tonight at 9 p.m. ET on A&E)

"If you’re an advertiser, wherever you are, receiving 20-30 letters a week saying this show is hateful… they’ve accused me of inciting murder, and the New York Post ran with that headline, so did TMZ, and they can both kiss my fat *advertiser censored* for doing so. You can quote me on that."

I love this woman. Hopefully this isn't a "Finale".

 

[NancyDrew55]

Ok...So, I avoided watching The Aftermath (after having been sucked into Making A Murderer), for a couple reasons...

For one thing, I saw Going Clear, had read plenty about the (ahhmmm), "Church" of Scientology and compelling as the evidence of cultism is, Nothing. Ever. Changed. The COS just rolled right along, enjoying it's tax-exempt status. Secondly, I felt the victims of the COS signed up for the ride, I honestly never thought about those who might have been born into it...

I first heard about LRH through the commercials on TV. Started reading Dianetics, and thought, " oh boy! this guy is a genius! Got less than half way through, and went, " Oh man! This guy is insane! Researching LRH led me to Alister Crowley. Well, well, well...

I finally binge watched season 1. ( and what little there is of season 2), Here are my observations:

What I find outstanding about the series, is that they are shedding light on, and really clarifying, the tactics of abusers of all shapes and sizes. So many people who leave abusive relationships, of ANY kind, often face the harsh glare of condemnation for having been in that predicament at all... " why did you stay so long? Why did you get involved at all? Why did you not see, what is so obvious to "the rest of us"? You must have done something to "deserve" this.

People need to believe this could never happen to them. I was one of those people. But once you are "kicked off the Boat Dock of complacency, so to speak, you can never go back to the innocent believe that "Bad things happen to "Other People", people who have "DONE SOMETHING" to deserve their misfortune. Or who could have avoided it, but didn't have the common sense, or fortitude to do so. The truth is, all of us have a weak link in our armor somewhere.

Abusers are predators that easily spot weakness. ( "Like A Lion Spots A Limp"). Anything at all will do. Even the simple belief,
"I think I could be a better person" is exploitable.

As for the show...

I'm gonna put it right out there, (as usual), and say that I dislike Mike Rinder. I'm glad that he's no longer torturing people, but I have no doubt that he took pride in it, when he was doing it, and he had to have known that it was immoral and/or criminal. .Anyone who has" knowingly" abused others, in the name of Scientology,or not, should have to answer for that. ( And not just with a hit TV show and all kinds of accolades).

Rinder knew what he was doing, he reports what he did, in such a way that leaves no doubt that he was aware of the plot. And I have seen him look almost... proud, when some of his exploits are being reveled.

He wasn't "brainwashed" into thinking he was a "doing good" the whole time. You can clearly see that.

Leah Remini seems different in that respect, at least. Rinder is even pointing out, "Leah didn't know about this, or that... ( But HE did).

I am also frankly uncomfortable with Mike and Leahs "Work" relationship.

I find it very inappropriate for a married man. Leah has made references such as, we're up all night talking, we eat breakfast together, lunch, coffee, dinner.... "I'm always calling mike, we're always saying this and that....It is almost as if this mission to save the world from the COS is more important than Mikes relationship with his wife... I find that ironic to say the least.

They are deeply intimate. There is no mistaking that. This "mission" will not bode well for Mikes marriage imo. Apparently they still cannot see, what is so very apparent to "outsiders".

I also feel the show could be improved if Leah would stop interjecting herself while victims are speaking. "I'm sure you did that because"... "I know you felt this".. "the church caused you to believe that"... I wish she would just let them tell the stories...

I was heartbroken for the young woman who wanted to voice her pain about her belief that she could have done something more to save her friend from committing suicide, but Leah cut her off, with "Don't you dare even say it!" And then went on to tell her how there was nothing she could have done, and it was not her fault ect...but she never got to speak those words. Her biggest regret. And she needed to, she TRIED to. Not letting people speak, talking over people is a huge flaw in the show.

My last observation, an admittedly petty one, I am distracted by Leah's talons. I'm surprised she has not put out an eye with those things when delicately dabbing at her under-eye area with a tissue. What is up with that?! Is that the latest style? Uhhgggg!

I hope the show is the "nail in coffin" for Scientology. I think it is one of the most important public service campaigns ever created on the topic of abuse. I love that the show is bringing a sense of humor, and hope to the very real recovery that abused people everywhere can reach for. Beyond grim survival, life can be good, and sweet and fun again.

 

[NancyDrew55]

I wouldn't venture to assume certain things re: Mike Rinder as the whole point is that being brainwashed, these people abused each other in ways and to tell that truth when one leaves takes great courage. Your comments are well stated. I would not make any other speculations rather petty. This is ground breaking to open the door to this cult
Thank God people are still talking about it and helping survivors. I also think that as a result of these insights, other cults are being critiqued in shows for their abuse and dangers. Thank God they recently put NXIVM on the radar with convictions.

 

[LynnRN1953]

I watched this for the first time last night. Very intense and very moving. I thought to myself, "Damn. The angered the wrong woman. She's determined." And a few minutes later Remini pretty much said the same thing. That she will never give up.

This show is devastating to that cult.

I agree, and I think the series was quite well done. I am hoping it did do some damage to the cult; they are dangerous.

 

[LynnRN1953]

I agree, and I think the series was quite well done. I am hoping it did do some damage to the cult; they are dangerous.

I just signed up with Websleuths, so am aware that I am commenting on an old thread, and I hope you see my reply to your excellent remarks! I agree with every single thing you said, right down to the distraction by Leah's loooooong nails, LOL! Yes, she could hurt someone badly with just one of her fingers. I, too, think the series would be much better without Leah's constant interjected remarks; she took over everything.

 

[Kennedy Jo]

Watching and reading here makes me glad that I made the right decision. I worked in Nashville for the government, very involved in political circles and was recruited by scientology, I think, because of those connections. I was intrigued but decided not to go with it.

 

[Jackson Flash]

I don't usually post on topics that are of little import to me. I seldom post "Wish them well", or "RIP" type posts very often...
And, if I am to be truthful, getting my Daughter off to a good start in seventh grade is more important to me right now, than the end of Scientology .

I think it's great that they are exposing this cult. But I fear that the way they over dramatize, exaggerate and spend too much time on the members of Scientology rather than LRH, David Miscavige, the brainwashing techniques and the actual criminal activity ( in which Mike Rinder participated heavily, with FULL knowledge) is going to backfire.

As important as it is to get the stories out there, it is perhaps even more important, ( if the goal is to end the abusive practices and/ or, the cult itself, and not just entertaining reality TV drama), that they expose, not just moms and grandmas abandoning/abusing children, but the internal illegal activities that smack of organized crime by the the founders/LEADERS.

I find it somewhat disingenuous that abuses that they themselves perpetrated on others, are hardly touched on, and when they are, they are infused with forgiveness because they are enlightened now. They just don't seem to have the same compassion for those that are still "believers" as they once were.

Leah discloses, with obvious disdain, how her mom's second husband introduced her to the cult, then had an affair, and left her with small children. Yet she herself had an affair with, ( her currant husband), Alonzo, who left his wife and children for her. Pardon me, if my respect drops just a notch. I know her personal life is not at issue here, however, I am noticing a disturbing tendency toward leniency for themselves and those they interview vs those committing the exact same offenses, but who have not yet been able to extradite themselves, for whatever reason.

In season one, both she and Mike Rinder, declare Grandparents who who have no relationship with their grandchildren, "fck'ing disgusting" . In season two (episode 3), they agree that it is "dangerous" when a mom explains why she does not allow her children to visit their grandparents. Really?

I think it's a pity that no one infiltrated the "church" on the down low, and then exposed CURRENT illegal activity.

I get a gut feeling that revenge is a HUGE motivator for both Leah and mike. (Whatever works right?).

It's likely Mike Rinder will never face charges for his illegal activities. Is that ok?

So..If I murder someone, and then I go public with all nasty things I did it, I get a full pardon?

Something is not right here. Season two seems to veer even more off course.

I know the show won an award and is receiving accolades in the world of Make Believe, But I find something distasteful about it, and I call em like I see em.


I love that Scientology is being exposed for the cult that it is, but the hypocrisy, in the show is glaring. IMO.

I agree!

I recently came across another cult group-- a hippie commune, seemingly harmless bunch using religious teachings as their means of controlling members-- and this group too is nothing more than a facade covering the real 'enterprise' behind the scenes, which includes essentially human trafficking and tax evasion on a massive scale. Have you ever heard of the Twelve Tribes, or Yellow Deli?
www.twelvetribes.org