Lie Detector Tests & Corruption: A public figure speaks out

[Kat010]

Gosh, I think that is a HUGE privacy violation. A teacher has absolutely no business discussing a students medical or other non school related business with a volunteer.
I'd be giving that teacher and school district a lot of grief if it were my child, and possibly finding an attorney to file a tort claim.

For saying "Johnny's going to the DR?" You'd sue for that? Wow. Then there's a lot of school secretaries, teachers, and administrators heading to court with defense attorneys.

Honest.

 

[gardeness]

Gosh, I think that is a HUGE privacy violation. A teacher has absolutely no business discussing a students medical or other non school related business with a volunteer.
I'd be giving that teacher and school district a lot of grief if it were my child, and possibly finding an attorney to file a tort claim.

If no medical details were given, I don't think the teacher would be in the wrong to mention to a volunteer (who, apparently, the school arranged to be in the classroom with the students--and, it sounds to me that it was in the capacity of being a teacher's aide or substitute) that a child went to the dr. moo

 

[gitana1]

I really don't think that this case can be compared to any other case. When I think about the "evidence" in this case, it just falls short. It's like the "poor man's version" of evidence, IMO--simply not equivalent to evidence I've seen in other cases--it doesn't quite make the mark... MOO

Respectfully, what do you mean? LE has not released their evidence. How can you state the evidence falls short when we don't know what it is?

 

[Kat010]

Please allow me to refer back to the OP and my post with questions.

The spirit and intent of this thread involves those 2 components, the desire to look at the elements in a fresh way, and the desire to do so using critical thinking.

Here's a link to that:

http://www.criticalthinking.org/aboutCT/define_critical_thinking.cfm

An out-take:

"Critical thinking is that mode of thinking - about any subject, content, or
problem - in which the thinker improves the quality of his or her thinking
by skillfully taking charge of the structures inherent in thinking and
imposing intellectual standards upon them.
The Result

A well cultivated critical thinker:

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]raises vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]precisely;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]gathers and assesses relevant information, using abstract ideas to[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]interpret it effectively,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]comes to well-reasoned conclusions and solutions, testing them against relevant criteria and standards;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]thinks openmindedly within alternative systems of thought, [/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]recognizing and assessing, as need be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences; and [/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems.[/FONT] "

By its very nature, CT demands that we ask hard questions, and also, as the saying goes "think outside the box."

As do, IMHO, common sense and logic.

 

[gardeness]

Respectfully, what do you mean? LE has not released their evidence. How can you state the evidence falls short when we don't know what it is?

lol--well, that exactly! There isn't much "evidence" to compare to any other case that I know of. And, what information that is out there just falls short, IMO.

 

[gitana1]

Please see my sig line that appears with each and every post I make.

I understand that you are expressing an opinion - we all are- but does that mean I cannot ask how you formed it? It's okay if you do not feel like answering!

 

[Kat010]

I understand that you are expressing an opinion - we all are- but does that mean I cannot ask how you formed it? It's okay if you do not feel like answering!

Yikes. That would take a lot of typing. Let me just say that how I formed my opinion is based on a) professional experience b) personal experience and c) has been defined in my posts in many threads, along with my OP and other posts here.

Short form: an entire summer is gone, children are going back to school, LE has assured everyone their children are safe, and oh yes, where's Kyron?

There's a significant gap between assurances and reality.

 

[gitana1]

From my perspective, with a great deal of public relations experience, I don't think she's a pro at all. And I don't think she had the right to assume the mantle of leadership and instruct an entire community.

I'm sorry if you feel personally insulted by looking at differing options, but believe me, none of this thread is personal at all. It's understood on WS that we look at different options and have different viewpoints--and that doing so is not personal.

Here's what I'd really like to see discussed: the OP and the questions I posed in a later post. We've all hashed out personal reactions, our beliefs, etc. but I'm right now interested not only in Kyron, but in LDTs, history, and the larger framework of this case.

TIA!

I do not feel personally insulted by looking at different opinions. I love WS for the differing perspectives. It makes me think! But I do find the repeated references to witch hunts and lynch mobs an inference that those of us who believe TH is guilty are part of one, instead of basing our beliefs on logic. And yes, that feels like an insult to my intelligence.

 

[gardeness]

Now, some personal commentary.

From the get-go, I've been troubled by not only LE's insistence that nobody had anything else to worry about, and their sole focus on TH, but also by the soft-pedaling of what happened at the school that day.

It's seemed as though anyone who can help prove any of TH's allegations is blown off, or disregarded, including Kyron's little friend who steadfastly said he saw KH after TH left. And then there's the volunteer (AKA the "substitute") who listened and told the regular teacher that Kyron was missing only to be told that he was probably in the bathroom or getting a dirnk.

Lots of focus has been applied to whether or not TH told the teacher--"yelling across the room"--that Kyron had a dr's appointment. In point of fact, that's a red herring and bogus, IMHO.

Why? Had TH, who had, according to Kyron's friend, already left, done so, the teacher *would* have replied "Not to worry, his mom brought him to the science fair but then she had to take him for a dr's appt."

That's simple timeline and logic.

There's been a solid rush to focus on TH and anyone, apparently, who liked her, or had anything to do with her. There's been a focus on smearing her and making sure that any and all leaks, and comments from other extended family members get fulll play.

As a former investigative reporter myself, there's one thing that I'm yearning to know, and it relates to who's connected to whom in the financial/power circles of that area. So far, I have not seen one reporter jump on what is to me, the most glaring missing element in this case, one that might explain why LE has notoriously assured a community of as-yet unproven safety for their children while also leading, IMHO, a lynch mob toward one person only.

In the end, TH might have done it. But then again, a pedophile might have done it.

The only thing we know at this point is: LE sure as heck doesn't know enough to make a solid case that will stand up in court. But they sure as heck were fast to reassure their community of something they can't prove to this day--and the entire situation has been muffled in a decided sidetracking from what really happened at school that day.

Let's face it, when they didn't even get to the groundskeeper before putting out that "white truck" flyer, LE revealed that they didn't do their basic homework. But, according to them, all's well with kiddies returning to school, as they've said from the start.

There's a history of cover-ups in that area, which is something I've long suspected. There's a history of bending things for political advantage, also not a surprise.

This post goes to the validity of what led Leonhardt to raise heck about the former governor, which then led to his experience with lie detectors.

Sometimes the most valuable lie detector we have is asking: what's being swept under the rug and why? Lie detector tests aren't admissable in court for darned good reasons.

But common sense always finds a way in--unless it's deliberately blocked.

IMHO.

bbm

IMO, this is huge. And it is interesting that the article about the stand-still in the case came out so soon after this...flub. I think LE is lost... But, I am hoping that they are checking out the 125 volunteers from Sunset Presbyterian who worked at Skyline on May 2, 2010...

Dear Skyline School Community and Neighbors:

Many of you are aware that on May 2, 2010, more than 125 volunteers from Sunset Presbyterian spent the day at Skyline School doing inside and outside projects. With the help of several Skyline parents, students and neighbors the amount of work that was done that day was truly amazing. In a continuing effort to support our school and complete the work started on May 2nd, Sunset Presbyterian volunteers will be returning on Sunday, August 29th for “Skyline Service Day”. Here are some of the projects that we will be doing:

* Finish painting exterior metal handrails.
* Finish painting trim in two classrooms.
* Paint one wall in the library.
* Clean out and reorganize “volunteer” room and “locker rooms” in basement of school.
* Landscaping around the school.
* Track maintenance

This will be our 10th and final year as Skyline parents and we are thrilled to partner with Sunset Presbyterian church for Skyline Service Day. This has been a difficult last few months for our Skyline staff and families, and we want to make sure that our school looks especially great when our kids return to class in September. As the project leaders we are seeking additional volunteers for the day from the Skyline community. In addition, we are looking for donations of water and snacks that we can provide to the volunteers during the day. If you are unable to volunteer we are also seeking monetary donations to help fund the purchase of supplies (paint, equipment, bark dust, etc.) needed for the day.

If you can help out in any capacity please contact us at maggieschweinfurth@comcast.net. Thanks so much!

Maggie and Bill Schweinfurth

http://srnpdx.org/current_newsline

 

[Kat010]

I do not feel personally insulted by looking at different opinions. I love WS for the differing perspectives. It makes me think! But I do find the repeated references to witch hunts and lynch mobs an inference that those of us who believe TH is guilty are part of one, instead of basing our beliefs on logic. And yes, that feels like an insult to my intelligence.

On the other hand, those who inveigh against TH often make it seem as though those who still question are backing a morally corrupt person who's a child killer (most likely).

Or, at least, some could feel like that.

I've had personal reactions to some posts that to me, seem to be saying that those who don't agree that TH is Mistress of all Evil, are lacking in moral compasses and judgment.

But I've chosen to realize that 'net communication is tricky, that my emotional reaction to something is just that, and I've next chosen to move on to evaluate facts. I can't demand that evryone post every single thought in a way that I don't find distressing in some way. That's impossible!

So I give others leeway in what I *think* they are inferring about those with differing opinions, and just move along. Because in the long run, how I may "feel" about a few words in someone's post right now has no relevance to looking at the facts, unless I choose to let it intrude.

As for "witch hunts"--the first use of that was in MSM from TH's attorney.

When I post questions and comments, I am making no inferences at all about those who disagree with me. Looking at cases like this is a very hard thing for everyone to do, IMHO, and I'm choosing to believe, even when briefly I'm impacted by a post, that the other poster has the best interests of Kyron and the case at heart, and that styles of communicating vary.

 

[gitana1]

Yikes. That would take a lot of typing. Let me just say that how I formed my opinion is based on a) professional experience b) personal experience and c) has been defined in my posts in many threads, along with my OP and other posts here.

Short form: an entire summer is gone, children are going back to school, LE has assured everyone their children are safe, and oh yes, where's Kyron?

There's a significant gap between assurances and reality.

I see your point. If I was a parent at the school, I would want more info. I wonder if they have been briefed by LE or the school or both. I would like to see an article regarding the attitude of the parents of returning school kids.
Although I am 95% certain TH is involved somehow, I would feel nervous if my child was a student there (or any school at this point). I'd like to know
what policies they have in place to make sure my child is safe and can't be taken.
I know no place or situation can be 100% secure at all times. Somethings cannot be prevented. But TP's statement to the media would greatly concern me as a parent.

 

[Aedrys]

Using that alleged conversation as an explanation/excuse for why the school didn't realize that Kyron is missing is bogus, IMHO.

Simple common sense: if the teacher had that conversation with TH, why didn't she say "oh, he's gone to a dr's appt. His mom just told me."

If TH was seen leaving w/out Kyron, and if Kyron went missing later, and if the teacher knew where he went (dr's appt) then it would be logical to assume that she'd reassure a volunteer and a child with the fact--he has a dr's appt.

IMHO.

Because people are human and there's no tight script followed for a regular day much less a day when a kid went missing? So if they didn't answer perfectly like they should have, it's bogus? That seems like a high standard no one can live up to. Plus, we have no idea what LE knows about this, which is probably substantially more than any leaks or sources of any kind have said. Unless there's a way to get into LE's minds, we are not sure of any one thing in this case except that Kyron is still missing.

 

[Kat010]

bbm

IMO, this is huge. And it is interesting that the article about the stand-still in the case came out so soon after this...flub. I think LE is lost... But, I am hoping that they are checking out the 125 volunteers from Sunset Presbyterian who worked at Skyline on May 2, 2010...

Wow! That is HUGE! Good find.

Someone could have scoped out the entire school, including exits, private areas, etc. etc.

Good work!

 

[gardeness]

Wow! That is HUGE! Good find.

Someone could have scoped out the entire school, including exits, private areas, etc. etc.

Good work!

The credit goes to gliving!! This is the link included on the original post:
http://srnpdx.org/current_newsline

 

[Kat010]

I see your point. If I was a parent at the school, I would want more info. I wonder if they have been briefed by LE or the school or both. I would like to see an article regarding the attitude of the parents of returning school kids.
Although I am 95% certain TH is involved somehow, I would feel nervous if my child was a student there (or any school at this point). I'd like to know
what policies they have in place to make sure my child is safe and can't be taken.
I know no place or situation can be 100% secure at all times. Somethings cannot be prevented. But TP's statement to the media would greatly concern me as a parent.

Although I still don't know about TH's involvement, I agree with everything else you said. And I find myself very angry that it's been so long, that kids are going back to school, and that LE has not been able to back up its claim that the community is safe. IMHO, they owe that to the community.

 

[cypress]

Because people are human and there's no tight script followed for a regular day much less a day when a kid went missing? So if they didn't answer perfectly like they should have, it's bogus? That seems like a high standard no one can live up to. Plus, we have no idea what LE knows about this, which is probably substantially more than any leaks or sources of any kind have said. Unless there's a way to get into LE's minds, we are not sure of any one thing in this case except that Kyron is still missing.

BBM

Isn't that the standard everyone is applying to Terri, though?

 

[gardeness]

Wow! That is HUGE! Good find.

Someone could have scoped out the entire school, including exits, private areas, etc. etc.

Good work!

Yes--that's what I was thinking, too. They would know the entire school--even the basement... Someone could have been planning and waiting for the opportunity...

 

[nurseratchett]

For saying "Johnny's going to the DR?" You'd sue for that? Wow. Then there's a lot of school secretaries, teachers, and administrators heading to court with defense attorneys.

Honest.

Well, honestly, yes, I would consider suing for that. She/he has no business discussing any health related issues with a volunteer, not even the fact that there was an appointment. I admit though that I may be biased in this, seeing as I work in healthcare, and privacy is a big deal.

Also, having seen the repercussions at one school where I volunteered as a nurse, of a students privacy being violated, I can't abide the sharing of information with anyone not needing to know for legitimate purposes.

 

[cypress]

It's hard for me to fathom a scenario in which a teacher would be in trouble for mentioning a child had a doctor's appointment, or how mentioning an appointment would be an egregious violation of privacy. I agree that it's unnecessary and inappropriate to discuss the details of a doctor's visit, but merely mentioning that a child was going to the doctor as a reason for a litigation?

Really? Wow. I'm one of those that thinks our overly litigious society has contributed to the destruction of much in our country, though. In that way, I, too, am biased.

 

[nurseratchett]

If no medical details were given, I don't think the teacher would be in the wrong to mention to a volunteer (who, apparently, the school arranged to be in the classroom with the students--and, it sounds to me that it was in the capacity of being a teacher's aide or substitute) that a child went to the dr. moo

Saying someone is going to the doctor is a "medical detail".

Not to belabor this, we all have our own opinions, and are entitled to those. I don't mean to say your opinion, or anyone elses for that matter is wrong, and mine is right. For me, it's right.
I find it highly invasive for anyone to discuss other's health issues without an absolute need to know, for either performing interventions, or to be aware of potential problems.
Again, that's just me and my opinion. Some people have no qualms about thier business being discussed with others, me...I guess I'm more of the Howard Hughes type, and cherish my privacy.