Lie Detector Tests & Corruption: A public figure speaks out

[stmarysmead]

IMO, we "know" what the media reports. But, as for the entirety of the investigation, can we really say that we "know" anything with complete certainty?"

How do we "know" that the police have ONLY focused on Terri?

Perhaps they have focused on, and eliminated numerous people. Just because they are seeking the public's help concerning questions about Terri and DeDe...does not mean they were EXCLUSIVELY their only focus, does it? So is it fair for us to assume so?

How do we know that police have "blown off" anyone who can support Terri's story? How can we prove they have "soft-pedaled" what occurred at the school?

They may have weighed all those reports against OTHER reports we know nothing about. Or they may be giving those reports great credibility.

The fact that they have questions they have posed to the media about Terri, DeDe and the truck... may, in fact, be driven by other evidence or information that the general public and the media...to this point...know nothing about.

Respectfully, unless we were privy to everything LE has done, is it fair to assume any of these things at this point? Is it fair to assume there is no evidence or basis for suspicion that might... in good faith... be causing LE to be looking closely at Terri?

You are talking about "cover-ups" and "bending things for political advantage."

IMO, those are very serious charges.

Without being inside the investigation, how does one credibly substantiate them?

 

[krowdkat]

I have a very close friend who had to take a LDT as part of his job application to become a police officer. One of the questions he was asked is if he had used any illegal narcotics in the past two years. He paused to do the math in his head because he had tried pot one summer when he was 16 y/o. He was 21 when he took this LDT. When he answered the question "NO, he hadn't used in the past two years!" the LDT indicated that he was being deceitful when he wasn't. He didn't get the job.

Because he knew that question would more than likely be posed to him on future LE job interviews, he passed with flying colors on the next LDT and became a police officer with no problems. He's now a criminal defense attorney and would never advise any of his clients guilty or innocent to submit to a LDT.

 

[darlin gal]

Polygraphs are a tool. One of many tools that are used in an investigation. It’s not the end-all. If polygraph was perfect, there would be no criminal justice system.

We have no idea who they have ruled out, who they have or haven't investigated, what evidence they may or may not have.

Police in Oakland are sure the foster dad murdered little Hassani Campbell and that foster-mom helped cover it up. They arrested them on murder charges and had to wind up releasing them as the DA said they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. To date they are still looking for that evidence. It's been over a year now. It may never come forward. There may be no justice for Hassani. Just like there may never be justice for Kyron.
Or it could be years down the road. We just don't know.

We have no choice but to sit back and wait and see what happens. If they get enough evidence to make an arrest (whoever that may be), they will. If that never happens, they won't.

I pray that both Hassani and Kyron cases are both resolved and prosecuted.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Had she known that Kyron Horman was about to become the most talked about missing child in America a few hours later, she might have done just that...

Later, "Where's Kyron?" She's in the middle of something and absently answers: oh, maybe in the bathroom, getting some water. This is where kids usually are when the sub/volunteer parents/other kids can't find them. Later, maybe even after Kyron was officially missing, she realized she actually did know where Kyron was because of that casual conversation at the exhibit. It hadn't occurred to her earlier because kids are usually not "missing" - they're just down the hall.

Very respectfully edited. BBM: This is the part that really bothers me. I have never known of elementary teachers who would permit students to leave the classroom to go to the restroom or get a drink of water without specific procedures in place. To hear that a teacher thought that "Kyron might have gone to the bathroom or to get a drink" sounds irresponsible to me. Makes me wonder if students were allowed to simply leave the room whenever they pleased without asking for permission and being given a Hall Pass. In either situation, the teacher would know exactly where the child was because she gave permission for the child to leave the classroom, the child had been given a Pass, and there would be no need for guesswork. The possibility that Kyron's whereabouts were not confirmed during the remainder of the school day is unconscionable, imo.

 

[sorrell skye]

And let us not forget the *talking points* memo released by Cindy Banks (owner of the historic church across the street from the school & board member in charge of fund raising for the Skyline Neighborhood Association), self-appointed liaison for the Skyline community - wherein she took it upon herself to dictate to other community members what they should & shouldn't discuss with media.

Please do not discuss the following:

The day of the disappearance
Feelings about members of the family
Speculations about the case or who you think is involved in Kyron's disappearance
Things you've observed that may pertain to the case - call those in to the sheriff
It would be appreciated if you could avoid negative comments about the school and law enforcement. A complete review of procedures and responses are being reviewed at both institutions

Please feel free to discuss the following:

Your own feelings or the feelings of your family
Your desire for Kyron's safe return
The impact of this event on the neighborhood
Your personal experiences as a parent at Skyline Elementary
Anything about the community, geography, events or mood of the neighborhood

http://srnpdx.org/media

 

[Kat010]

clip...
You are talking about "cover-ups" and "bending things for political advantage."

IMO, those are very serious charges.

Without being inside the investigation, how does one credibly substantiate them?

No. There are no "charges" here. There are only historical references, a personal experience written about that historical event and experience with a LDT, and, as in all threads, personal opinons.

But there are no charges. These are simply questions. Reasonable ones.

We know what we know about LE because of what they *chose* to release, and when and how. We also "know" (maybe) because of leaks (the Source family), many of which seem to be in the LE family. We know because of statements and allegations by players in this case.

Either LE has a huge public communications problem or else they have, IMHO, focused only on one possible solution and brought that to the public repeatedly.

Those that put on the public feed bag are our employees. You'll hear me say that over and over again. Which means that as our employees, they are subject to our questions, comments, and reviews.

 

[Kat010]

And let us not forget the *talking points* memo released by Cindy Banks (owner of the historic church across the street from the school & board member in charge of fund raising for the Skyline Neighborhood Association), self-appointed liaison for the Skyline community - wherein she took it upon herself to dictate to other community members what they should & shouldn't discuss with media.

Please do not discuss the following:

The day of the disappearance
Feelings about members of the family
Speculations about the case or who you think is involved in Kyron's disappearance
Things you've observed that may pertain to the case - call those in to the sheriff
It would be appreciated if you could avoid negative comments about the school and law enforcement. A complete review of procedures and responses are being reviewed at both institutions

Please feel free to discuss the following:

Your own feelings or the feelings of your family
Your desire for Kyron's safe return
The impact of this event on the neighborhood
Your personal experiences as a parent at Skyline Elementary
Anything about the community, geography, events or mood of the neighborhood

http://srnpdx.org/media

Brilliant, thanks for bringing this forward.

Who was this person to dictate how others should behave? And why?

Oh yes, why.

 

[sorrell skye]

What's interesting to me is that early on there seemed to be an *unofficial* attempt to stifle any public discussion within the community regarding speculation about the case & to discourage any discourse between the community & the media as far as any initial thoughts the community members may have had regarding Kyron's disappearance.

It's also interesting that public discussion regarding negative comments about LE & the school were also strongly discouraged.

IIRC, @ that point in time, there didn't seem to be any public criticism of LE or the school (by way of Skyline community members talking to media) - so why the suggestion to avoid doing so?

 

[cluciano63]

The more I see that memo from the woman at the church, the more it gives me the creeps. "Feel free to discuss..."?? What?

 

[gitana1]

Now, some personal commentary.

From the get-go, I've been troubled by not only LE's insistence that nobody had anything else to worry about, and their sole focus on TH, but also by the soft-pedaling of what happened at the school that day.

There's been a solid rush to focus on TH and anyone, apparently, who liked her, or had anything to do with her. There's been a focus on smearing her and making sure that any and all leaks, and comments from other extended family members get fulll play.

As a former investigative reporter myself, there's one thing that I'm yearning to know, and it relates to who's connected to whom in the financial/power circles of that area. So far, I have not seen one reporter jump on what is to me, the most glaring missing element in this case, one that might explain why LE has notoriously assured a community of as-yet unproven safety for their children while also leading, IMHO, a lynch mob toward one person only.

Respectfully snipped for space and BBM.

Since LE has released almost zero info and hasn't even deemed TH a POI, how are they "leading a lynch mob"? Seems like they are just trying to conduct their investigation based on what they know (which we don't).

 

[liz b.]

Very respectfully edited. BBM: This is the part that really bothers me. I have never known of elementary teachers who would permit students to leave the classroom to go to the restroom or get a drink of water without specific procedures in place. To hear that a teacher thought that "Kyron might have gone to the bathroom or to get a drink" sounds irresponsible to me. Makes me wonder if students were allowed to simply leave the room whenever they pleased without asking for permission and being given a Hall Pass. In either situation, the teacher would know exactly where the child was because she gave permission for the child to leave the classroom, the child had been given a Pass, and there would be no need for guesswork. The possibility that Kyron's whereabouts were not confirmed during the remainder of the school day is unconscionable, imo.

Yes, it almost sounds impossible that his teacher didn't realize he was missing for the rest of the day. I don't really believe that... I wonder if much of this part of the history of that morning is being hidden, both by LE and the School District ? But, IIRC, the Groundskeeper did say that he saw children outside that morning ; probably pretty chaotic that morning, IMO...

All JMO

 

[ami]

Very respectfully edited. BBM: This is the part that really bothers me. I have never known of elementary teachers who would permit students to leave the classroom to go to the restroom or get a drink of water without specific procedures in place. To hear that a teacher thought that "Kyron might have gone to the bathroom or to get a drink" sounds irresponsible to me. Makes me wonder if students were allowed to simply leave the room whenever they pleased without asking for permission and being given a Hall Pass. In either situation, the teacher would know exactly where the child was because she gave permission for the child to leave the classroom, the child had been given a Pass, and there would be no need for guesswork. The possibility that Kyron's whereabouts were not confirmed during the remainder of the school day is unconscionable, imo.

Perhaps it's irresponsible considering one of their students became a missing person when last seen in the school, but it's not uncommon and I wouldn't have been shocked by it in one of my daughter's small schools had someone said they thought she was in the restroom. Especially on a day when volunteers are there, a science fair in the morning and a talent show in the afternoon - it wasn't a normal day, there were other adults around who might have given permission to the odd girl or boy who had to run to the bathroom and things weren't running in their normal routine.

I'm sure Skyline is now revamping their classroom rules but in a small school in a safe area I wouldn't be shocked to know that a teacher wasn't positive that little Johnny didn't ask to use the restroom a few minutes before. A request that happens so often and is usually of such little real consequence that you don't think much of it. I also know that my daughter didn't attend a school that used a bathroom pass until 7th grade. I didn't think it was irresponsible of them not to issue one - I just didn't think of it at all because it was never something that presented a problem.

 

[gitana1]

And let us not forget the *talking points* memo released by Cindy Banks (owner of the historic church across the street from the school & board member in charge of fund raising for the Skyline Neighborhood Association), self-appointed liaison for the Skyline community - wherein she took it upon herself to dictate to other community members what they should & shouldn't discuss with media.

Please do not discuss the following:

The day of the disappearance
Feelings about members of the family
Speculations about the case or who you think is involved in Kyron's disappearance
Things you've observed that may pertain to the case - call those in to the sheriff
It would be appreciated if you could avoid negative comments about the school and law enforcement. A complete review of procedures and responses are being reviewed at both institutions

Please feel free to discuss the following:

Your own feelings or the feelings of your family
Your desire for Kyron's safe return
The impact of this event on the neighborhood
Your personal experiences as a parent at Skyline Elementary
Anything about the community, geography, events or mood of the neighborhood

http://srnpdx.org/media

Brilliant, thanks for bringing this forward.

Who was this person to dictate how others should behave? And why?

Oh yes, why.

I don't have much of a problem with this. The woman apparently has some experience with public relations. I think she is trying to avoid a firestorm of intrusive media camping all over the place, harassing residents and possibly impeding the investigation by releasing info that LE may want quiet to prevent the investigation from being sullied.
You know, there was a case down here recently where a judge temporarily forbid the LA Times from taking or publishing pictures of a defendant in a case because the judge thought publication might prejudice the ability of witnesses to adequately ID the perp, which could prejudice either side of the case. The Times cited 1st amendment rights (and I think they had the correct position) and they eventually were granted the right to publish. But the point is that it is well known that if certain facts are published, it can hamper an investigation by tipping off perps, or influencing witnesses' perceptions, etc.
Not to you two directly but, I feel the need to say that I just don't see awitch hunt, lynch mob, a cover up or conspiracy (which seems to be a topic in this thread). I did see some people on the web casting every move TH made in a negative light, as suspicious or evidence of criminal action, which I think is unnecessary and immature, but I don't get this feeling in a global sense from LE or the community at large.
LE has seemed quite professional, hard working and reserved for the most part. Why can't we just let them do their job and wait to see what they actually have discovered before we insinuate there is this massive corrupt cover-up and rush to arrest the wrong person?
You want to see corruption, cover-ups and a witch hunt? Take a look at the Tonya Craft case. I personally do not see that here.
Frankly, more than half the people on this thread believe TH is involved in Kyron's disappearance and these insinuations about witch hunts and lynch mobs, cover-ups, etc., sometimes feel like an insult to the intelligence of those of us who believe that way - as if only a mob mentality has governed our beliefs when I feel there are quite logical reasons to feel TH is involved, apart from any stuff about whether TH went to the gym after Kyron disappeared or was on steroids or has a personality disorder because she drives a red sports car. My two cents.

 

[PaulaF513]

Good question, and one that I had early in the investigation. Alas! We've learned very little about any factual evidence in this case, so I doubt that there's been an answer to this question. jmo

There actually has been a response to this issue from a guy associated with the school or the school board. He claims the episode as stated by TP happened the day before, Thursday June 3. That is so outlandishly bogus, it almost doesn't bear disputing.

What needs to be kept in mind is that LE was aware of TP's story and asked his family to not repeat it. His grandmother who understood the significance of what the child was telling, made it public.

If anything points to a coverup, this does. The boy's version absolutely paints a picture of negligence by the school's personnel.

 

[STEADFAST]

I'm not feeling the theory that Terri is innocent and only seems guilty because the school district, school administration, his teacher, LE, lie detector administrator, and Kyron's parents are all incompetent, corrupt or vengeful. :snooty:

 

[stmarysmead]

Respectfully snipped for space and BBM.

Since LE has released almost zero info and hasn't even deemed TH a POI, how are they "leading a lynch mob"? Seems like they are just trying to conduct their investigation based on what they know (which we don't).

I agree.

"Public feedbag" or no, I think those who are working diligently to bring Kyron home deserve our respect unless we have proof of "leading lynch mobs", "soft-pedaling",or some nefarious behavior toward Terri that is blatantly inappropriate.

We do not know what they know. We do not know what others have told them. We do not know the evidence they have uncovered. Therefore, how can we fairly criticize using such terms?

Quote: "There's been a solid rush to focus on TH and anyone, apparently, who liked her, or had anything to do with her. There's been a focus on smearing her and making sure that any and all leaks, and comments from other extended family members get fulll play."

The police are trying to find a missing child. IMO, they "feel" this case tremendously. They, like all of us, have a sense of urgency. In that context, they believe they have reason to ask questions of the public about Terri, DeDe. and the truck.

Is that a "focus on smearing" her? What SHOULD they do?

Are they supposed to be required to ask equal questions about others...if the investigation is not leading that way? Is protecting Terri as important then developing leads to find Kyron?

A Landscaper said Terri tried to hire him to kill Kaine. If the police found him credible...what would we have them do in regard to Kaine, his safety and the safety of Baby K...when that accused person was possibly the last person with a missing child? Not tell Kaine? Not protect Baby K? ONE CHILD is already missing!

Was that "smearing" Terri?

If the police found the MFH credible, was it wrong for Kaine to go to court? Should he have stayed with Baby K in a house with someone who may have tried to kill him...so that Terri would not be "smeared" by the public revelation?

Quote: "There's a history of cover-ups in that area, which is something I've long suspected. There's a history of bending things for political advantage, also not a surprise."

I don't understand what this means. How do these two statements apply to LE? What do they mean in the context of the investigation?

Is it just possible that all these things about Terri are coming out...because that's where the investigation is leading?

If a woman...whose friends give her bat-phones and who is "sexting" her husband's old friend... is accused by a Landscaper of trying to hire him to kill her husband whose son has just gone missing during a time she was driving aimlessly around and her best friend was also missing from work...inspires the police to ask the public questions about her...HOW does that link the police department to a history of "cover-ups", "bending things for political advantage"...or the charge of "smearing?'

I don't understand.

 

[human]

I've thought a lot about that part - why the teacher would dismiss the child's noting that Kyron was gone, and say what she said. My thinking is that she is under no obligation to tell a fellow second grade student where another student is. For all we know, the child may have been a challenge as far as staying on task, in which case, the best strategy would be to say something quick and simple, and then redirect him to continue on his worksheet, for example. Or maybe she just didn't want to explain to a child what the story was because it wasn't all that clear to her. I don't know if that implicates the teacher or not, but I wouldn't call a child's word gospel in that situation. On a normal day, it wouldn't have been an important moment, and I can totally see a harried teacher blowing off the full truth in response to an inquisitive child. JMO.

I think doctor's appt's are private into and she probably didn't want to get into it with a child .

 

[gitana1]

If they know, where's the proof? Enough to arrest?

It's been a long, hard summer.

Question: do the lie detector tests undertaken by TH actually tell us anything with 100% accuracy, after reviewing the material in the original post by a public figure who's had one?

And what was the precise question(s) that she tested inconclusive on?

Apparently they do not have enough to arrest just yet. Reminds me of the scott peterson case. LE knew they were on the right track. They followed up on other possible leads that led nowhere but SP's story, conduct, demeanor, etc., did not add up. When the affair came out, that solidified their feelings. But, no bodies, not enough to arrest. There was almost zero physical evidence at that time. The moment they found those bodies, SP was arrested.
But, ask his family and some others on the web. There is a whole group who feel exactly the same way about SP's case as some currently do about this one - that LE unfairly targeted one person, covered up a bunch of exculpatory evidence and helped convict an innocent man. Oh, they scream and yell about all of that but they have never offered any credible proof supporting their position, IMO.
I think if Kyron is found, we will know more almost right away.

I do have one question. If the teacher thought that Kyron had gone to the restroom or to get a drink, why did that teacher not raise an alarm when he didn't come back? Has this been addressed anywhere? -

I have been asking the same question. This really bothers me.

I've thought a lot about that part - why the teacher would dismiss the child's noting that Kyron was gone, and say what she said. My thinking is that she is under no obligation to tell a fellow second grade student where another student is. For all we know, the child may have been a challenge as far as staying on task, in which case, the best strategy would be to say something quick and simple, and then redirect him to continue on his worksheet, for example. Or maybe she just didn't want to explain to a child what the story was because it wasn't all that clear to her. I don't know if that implicates the teacher or not, but I wouldn't call a child's word gospel in that situation. On a normal day, it wouldn't have been an important moment, and I can totally see a harried teacher blowing off the full truth in response to an inquisitive child. JMO.

I don't see a problem with telling a kid, "Oh, he's gone for the day with his mom." I think it is right to address a child's concern in such a situation. But IIRC from the report, it was another staff member who expressed concern about where Kyron was. The answer, according to this classmate, was: "Calm down, calm down. he probably went for a drink or something." And then what? No one remembers the question that caused the teacher to feel the questioner was unduly upset? Something significant enough to cause a lack of calm is thereafter forgotten when the kid never comes back? As a former preschool teacher and daycare worker, this makes no sense to me. If true, someone should be fired, IMO.

 

[liz b.]

From the totally excellent WW Pulitzer-winning coverage:

"You could argue that I had an ethical responsibility to do something," says Multnomah County Sheriff Bernie Giusto, one of those who knew Goldschmidt's secret. "But other people had better information than I had and never acted."

...

" Giusto acknowledged that he had learned the story about Goldschmidt and the young girl but did not say exactly when or how.

Giusto didn't report the information to his superiors, he testified, because he believed the statute of limitations had expired. (Law-enforcement officials say he was correct.)

Giusto argued he had no duty to pursue further information because there was no evidence that Goldschmidt represented a danger to other children. "In my two years with him, I never saw anything that led me to believe that there were other victims," Giusto said.

In a follow-up interview, Giusto maintained that had he alerted superiors, he might have smeared Goldschmidt unjustly. "It would have been unethical for me to have opened an investigation," Giusto explained. "My only obligation was to make sure there were no other victims around--it was not to quit or confront him."

Yep, that's the top cop talking there.

I guess he believed that the community was "safe" too.

Very interesting and thought provoking posts... About the WW, what do you think about their coverage of Kyron's case ?

All JMO

 

[stmarysmead]

In my mind, "smearing" someone indicates lying about them or spreading a malicious untruth.

How has LE "smeared" Terri?

We have certainly learned that she was married to a Meth user who she said had AIDS or HIV in a court document. He fathered her child. She left him and married a man who paid for her education and adopted her child She left him. She continues to take money from that man to support that child while she herself does not work and is supported by her third husband. She had an affair with Kaine while his wife was pregnant.

I believe that is Terri's truthful history. (correct me if I am wrong)

The truth is the truth...not smearing. These revelations are not the fault of LE. They are the story of Terri's life.

We don't know if Terri actually solicited a Murder-for-Hire...but it is the truth that someone claims HE was the guy she tried to hire. Her husband, the alleged prospective victim used this charge to get a restraining order. So the MFH story is no smear either. It is the an actual accusation that has been made by a witness against Terri.

We do know Terri was "sexting" because the Recipient of those texts has come forward. The story is true, so, again, it cannot be a smear. It is just what Terri chose to do during theses days as Kyron remains missing.

How has LE "smeared" Terri?

I think the only objective of the police must be to find Kyron. It is not their concern to try and protect anyone from unwelcome revelations about the facts and choices of their adult lives. They are not a public relations department. They are trying to find this little child. Period.