Lies point us to the truth #2

[UKGuy]

The issue of the size 12s depends on who knew that there was indeed another set of Bloomis. Burke did not visit NYC. He wasn't there when Patsy purchased them. If the package were wrapped, it'd be in different paper than FAO Schwarz gifts. This helped in finding it? As for BR's bike, it would not have been wrapped. How do the torn packages fit with these other two presents?

The Bloomis have no direct link to BR, as the long johns do. In fact, why not remove both the long johns and the size 12s? It would take little time to do so. If JB were left partially unclad, it'd mesh with IDI. The redressing makes that theory, which the Rs purported, more difficult. The Barbie nightgown may have been intended for JB, but was abandoned on the floor? The abuser and/or killer were aware that the SA would be revealed at autopsy. Disguising this aspect in the staging was futile from the first. Why did JR find it necessary to take the additional risk of wiping her down?

Speculation about the 23rd leads to possible/probable premeditation. If DS knew more than he ought, the Stines formed a conspiracy with the Rs. Quid pro quo?

Burke's at knifepoint tale has the advantage of explaining how JonBenet got down to the basement. Could he have managed an unconscious JB by himself down the stairs from the kitchen, much less from an upper floor?

proust20,

The issue of the size 12s depends on who knew that there was indeed another set of Bloomis. Burke did not visit NYC. He wasn't there when Patsy purchased them. If the package were wrapped, it'd be in different paper than FAO Schwarz gifts. This helped in finding it? As for BR's bike, it would not have been wrapped. How do the torn packages fit with these other two presents?

James Kolar, in his book, claims BR stated that he was down in the basement on Christmas Day afternoon, searching about. i.e. BR might be the person responsible for OPENING the Partially Opened Gifts, which may include the size-12's ready gift-wrapped for Patsy's niece?
i.e. BR knew prior to JonBenet being assaulted that there was a set of Day Of The Week Bloomingdales down in the basement.

To justify the above speculation, BPD have never revealed the make or Day Of The Week status regarding the underwear removed from JonBenet's underwear drawer!

Neither PR or JR would have thought the Day Of The Week mattered, as they would have known - any pair of size-6 underwear would do just fine!

John claims Patsy never knew the Partially Wrapped Gifts were down in the basement, e.g. Lego Set.

Patsy claims she Partially Opened the Gifts to peek at what they held - Really! Like no name tags attached, etc, Eyes-Rolling here.

Conclusion : PR and JR are covering for BR.

why not remove both the long johns and the size 12s?

These then need to be removed, the size-12's and the underwear JonBenet wore to the White's is also on the removal list. Could the latter items left via bicycle?

Burke's at knifepoint tale has the advantage of explaining how JonBenet got down to the basement. Could he have managed an unconscious JB by himself down the stairs from the kitchen, much less from an upper floor?

It could be JonBenet went willingly, NO knife required.

Burkes promises of more gifts and toys, even NEW underwear to be found might have done the trick.

I reckon BR moving JonBenet from the breakfast bar down to the basement is feasible, as essentailly all he needs to do is roll her body, checking for a fall on each step down. This might explain all the contusions and abrasions on her body?

This aspect is really the only drawback to a BDI and BR BEGINNING his staging down in the basement.

I remember wayback when everyone and their dog thought the case was either PDI or JDI.

Other than BlueCrab nearly everyone, myself included, dismissed BDI as ridiculous!

.

 

[Eddie99]

Is the insinuation here that someone took jbr's underwear and replaced them with size 12 underwear?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Because SS wants to claim third-party status, i.e. DS "knows all that detail because BR told him and I overheard most of it anway, i.e. SS"

UKGuy,
This would have to mean that DS was not present that night @ the Ramsey’s.

As in, someone took JB quietly down to the basement, took out a knife and hit her over the head?

I doubt it, the knife was likely used to cut the ligature cord and/or wrist restraints, the whack on the head could have been delivered anywhere in the house.

The point was: BR knew about the knife and the hitting on the head. The knife could have also been used to make a knot I.e. ligature.

There might be link back to the 23rd with a repeat possibly playing out on Christmas Night?

i.e. events on the 23rd were part of a pattern, which the person who assaulted JonBenet expected to continue into the future?

Since it was reported per LHP that BR and JB played doctor.

Speculating: BR is not going to stage JonBenet in his room or the breakfast bar. That really leaves the basement or her bedroom.

Obviously it could be both i.e. BR stages JonBenet as assaulted in her bed, and his parents restage her down in the basement?

Redressing JonBenet in the size-12's along with his knife being found down there might suggest BR opted for a basement staging which was tweaked by his parents?

I would agree with this speculation.

Did BR break the basement window as part of HIS staging?

Later he would claim to be present when JR broke the basement window when they were locked out!

This is an example of JR being given an alibi by BR, with BR knowing why.

Either way both JR and and BR must know who killed JonBenet as minimally one of them is guilty?

I have often wondered if that window was broken that night as a coverup. Apparently JR and BR were in this together since the story is told by both of them. BR throws in that he was let in through the front door?

Since PR fiber evidence is in the ligature, paint tray etc.: I would say she ended JB life unless she wasn’t strong enough and JR took over.

 

[proust20]

Why were the size 12s still in the house? From the CS photos, I do not recall seeing other unsent presents? Patsy made such a big deal out of the Holidays that this oversight seems out of character. Her version of JonBenet wanting to keep them does furnish an explanation, however lame. The questions about the 12s seem to have thrown her, during the BPD interview. As the long johns covered them, she may not have noticed? Some items of evidence were removed. But, the inappropriate layers of underwear were deemed acceptable as the final tableau for the pageant winner.

The size 6s had to disappear. Yet, even after the redressing, John found it necessary to pull down the 12s to wipe JB. The head wound did not bleed visibly, which draws attention to Burke's knowledge about it. The assailant could not know that the wound would not bleed. Perhaps, as it didn't, the injury was not seen as serious? In the beginning, the head wound came as a revelation to investigators.

The extra hair-tie has to be included in the redressing. It was applied after the Whites'. It's another problem in the Rs' timeline of putting JB to bed asleep. The floor of her room suggests it could have been put on there. But why bother? Secret Santa? While I do not usually consider that murky aspect, an additional round of gift giving could explain the torn packages. Also, BR's bike?

Kolar does not seem to believe that PR tore the packages. Once more, her prevarication over an, on the surface, everyday detail makes her suspect.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
This would have to mean that DS was not present that night @ the Ramsey’s.


I doubt it, the knife was likely used to cut the ligature cord and/or wrist restraints, the whack on the head could have been delivered anywhere in the house.

The point was: BR knew about the knife and the hitting on the head. The knife could have also been used to make a knot I.e. ligature.



Since it was reported per LHP that BR and JB played doctor.


I would agree with this speculation.



I have often wondered if that window was broken that night as a coverup. Apparently JR and BR were in this together since the story is told by both of them. BR throws in that he was let in through the front door?

Since PR fiber evidence is in the ligature, paint tray etc.: I would say she ended JB life unless she wasn’t strong enough and JR took over.

Rain on my Parade,

This would have to mean that DS was not present that night @ the Ramsey’s.

He might have been present when Jonbenet was injured but left soon after and was not there when JonBenet was staged, say by BR.

The point was: BR knew about the knife and the hitting on the head. The knife could have also been used to make a knot I.e. ligature.

Sure, this why I asked which knife? As hitting on the head can occur anywhere in the house, and the knife can be linked via LHP, depending on which one, if it is the one meant to be in his bedroom, thats Bingo. Since BR should not know about any head injury that was ONLY discovered at autopsy.

Since it was reported per LHP that BR and JB played doctor.

More than that, there are allegations of sleepovers ...

I have often wondered if that window was broken that night as a coverup. Apparently JR and BR were in this together since the story is told by both of them. BR throws in that he was let in through the front door?

Absolutely. BR gives JR an alibi for the broken window, most likely broken by BR as part of his own staging?

Since PR fiber evidence is in the ligature, paint tray etc.: I would say she ended JB life unless she wasn’t strong enough and JR took over.

Most likely, although the fiber evidence in the tray is not as good as that in the wine-cellar as PR can claim they arrived after a painting session.
.

 

[UKGuy]

Why were the size 12s still in the house? From the CS photos, I do not recall seeing other unsent presents? Patsy made such a big deal out of the Holidays that this oversight seems out of character. Her version of JonBenet wanting to keep them does furnish an explanation, however lame. The questions about the 12s seem to have thrown her, during the BPD interview. As the long johns covered them, she may not have noticed? Some items of evidence were removed. But, the inappropriate layers of underwear were deemed acceptable as the final tableau for the pageant winner.

The size 6s had to disappear. Yet, even after the redressing, John found it necessary to pull down the 12s to wipe JB. The head wound did not bleed visibly, which draws attention to Burke's knowledge about it. The assailant could not know that the wound would not bleed. Perhaps, as it didn't, the injury was not seen as serious? In the beginning, the head wound came as a revelation to investigators.

The extra hair-tie has to be included in the redressing. It was applied after the Whites'. It's another problem in the Rs' timeline of putting JB to bed asleep. The floor of her room suggests it could have been put on there. But why bother? Secret Santa? While I do not usually consider that murky aspect, an additional round of gift giving could explain the torn packages. Also, BR's bike?

Kolar does not seem to believe that PR tore the packages. Once more, her prevarication over an, on the surface, everyday detail makes her suspect.

proust20,
Patsy's claims about the size-12's are plainly fiction. As the BPD investigator said NO size-12's were found ANYWHERE in the house never mind JonBenet's underwear drawer.

If Patsy knew about the size-12's she would have had an explanation that made sense, instead she just made it all up when questioned.

The hair-ties are unexplained. Patsy says she put JonBenet straight to bed, only replacing her black velvet pants with the long johns.

Eyes-Rolling here, why bother she is going to sleep?

From memory the head injury was sealed until the Judge decided more detail could be made public, i.e. AFTER BR and DS discuss how JonBenet was killed.

Kolar does not seem to believe that PR tore the packages. Once more, her prevarication over an, on the surface, everyday detail makes her suspect.

Patsy is covering for BR. Kolar suggests BR opened the gifts on his walk through the basement on Christmas day afternoon.

JR covered for Patsy saying she never knew there were any gifts in the wine-cellar, i.e. only he did!

It all blow up when she was interviewed on the subject, all the contradictions in her story suggest she was ignorant of JonBenet wearing size-12s.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Is the insinuation here that someone took jbr's underwear and replaced them with size 12 underwear?

Yes, as JonBenet normally wore size-6 underwear, yet she was found dressed in size-12 Bloomingdales, so oversized they would likely just fall down unless held up.

The size-12's represent a red-flag as neither parent would consider underwear purchased for a girl twice JonBenet's age as being suitable staging clothing!

The size-12's defeat the purpose of the staging, i.e. to mask a familial homicide for that of an Intruder.

.

 

[Eddie99]

May i politey challenge your theory?

So where are the balance of the underwear in the package; and where are the correct size underwear she was presumably wearing?

 

[Eddie99]

Also

You don't think it possible they simply opened the wrong package of underwear and put them in her drawer. Which she put on one day.

 

[proust20]

Leaving JonBenet redressed in the WC was deliberate. She could have been changed easily. At what point was this deliberate choice made? If Burke began the absurd redressing, his parent(s) then decided to leave it in place. They thought the more chaotic the scene the better? If the parent(s) were responsible, some obscure message or red herring were being conveyed. Much of PR's life was devoted to staging. This interest overshadowed JB. Did her staging abilities come in handy just to cover up the crime, or is staging itself intrinsic to the crime?

 

[OddOneOut]

Any word on the new DNA testing?

 

[Eddie99]

These child crimes, like the McCann girl, Casey Antony, and jbr amongst others, really bother me.

I try not to jump to conclusions based on the media, because the media changed. They used to make money by delivering news. Now, they make money with by being as bombastic as possible 24/7/365.

It didn't take me long to get suspicious of Casey Antony, that psycho Lori vanner, and a few others.

I never got suspicious of jbrs parents. I think they had a built a good life, for themselves and their kids.

I hope one day soon, someone solved this thing. And all these perverted fantasy theory stop.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

As far as the size 12’s being in the basement … please reference under Media Links only post #275. You will see on the washing machine a pair of scissors and what looks like a package being wrapped in green. When they scan the camera around across from the washer you will see gifts wrapped and possibly unwrapped.
Since BR admitted to being down in the basement Christmas Day and PR states she spent time down there as well wrapping; perhaps BR saw PR wrapping the size 12’s. Or they could have been in the pile to be wrapped.

As for the remainder of the size 12’s being missing from the home it makes one wonder why the R’s turned over a package after they moved to Atlanta? Maybe they walked out of that house in PR purse, or on a bike etc. maybe they didn’t disappear at all. Everything was packed up for them and shipped to Atlanta.
It also makes sense that the size 6 underwear that JB had been wearing disappeared and there was cotton found in the wine cellar. Connect the dots and the stuffing could have been pulled from the doll and the missing size 6 underwear inserted. The head put back on and then back to JB room. Why else would PR request American doll‘s be retrieved from the house on her sisters infamous swoop of the home? Lets ask ourselves that at a time like this, would we be concerned about dolls?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I never got suspicious of jbrs parents. I think they had a built a good life, for themselves and their kids.

Eddie99,

Except both parents were handed down indictments for Child abuse, aiding and abetting.

JB was SA prior to the murder. Even PR own mother stated all children are a little abused. There was a recent article in People about how most SA in a home happen via siblings.

The point is they (PR) tried to make it look like the perfect little family but obviously it was very dysfunctional!

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Any word on the new DNA testing?

OddOneOut,

This is JR attempt at deflection. Nothing more.

 

[OddOneOut]

OddOneOut,

This is JR attempt at deflection. Nothing more.

In my opinion, it is a reasonable attempt to find the truth.

 

[UKGuy]

May i politey challenge your theory?

So where are the balance of the underwear in the package; and where are the correct size underwear she was presumably wearing?

Eddie99,
Its not theory, its fact. Read below NO size-12's were found anywhere in the house!

Atlanta 200 Patsy Interview excerpt

1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you

2 aware that these were the size of panties

3 that she was wearing, and this has been

4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they

5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of

6 that?

7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.

8 Q. And how did you become aware of

9 that?

10 A. Something I read, I am sure.

11 Q. And I will just state a fact

12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties

13 taken out of, by the police, out of

14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is

15 that where she kept -

16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

17 Q. -- where you were describing that

18 they were just put in that drawer?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was

21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

22 Would that have been about the size pair of

23 panties that she wore when she was six years

24 old?

25 A. I would say more like six to

0094

1 eight. There were probably some in there

2 that were too small.

3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?

4 A. Not typically, no.

5 MR. KANE: Okay.

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[UKGuy]

PATSY DOES NOT KNOW THERE ARE GIFTS IN THE WC ...

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch
21 of gifts at FAO Schwartz up in New York in early
22 December, some of which were for them were for
23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
24 know they were in the closet exactly,

 

[UKGuy]

PATSY SAYS SHE OPENED THE GIFTS

June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth

14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. It is hard to sort of
15 figure out where all of these pictures are taken, but
16 there is another package over here.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Does that look out of place or
19 in the proper place?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I had -- you know, I
21 stacked up some packages along there (inaudible).
22 Kicked (inaudible) or something. I kind of have it
23 backed up here.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. So the packages in 146,
25 it looks like it is out of place to you?
0392
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. Yeah. See, that
2 looks -- the door would be here.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: It is hard.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: So that would be back in here
5 somewhere. I was right in front of the door.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: No. Here are the screens. You
7 see the screens over here, the small screens, so it is
8 more back in this.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I would tuck them
10 there.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: I guess the point is, there
12 wasn't one that was off by itself. They should have
13 all been together.
14 The location in picture 148 is the correct
15 place for all of the packages to have been?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
17 TOM HANEY: Before we go on, could we just
18 talk briefly about the packages, these were presents
19 for whom, the ones that were left in there?
0392
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe for, you know, I
21 held some back for Burke's birthday which is in
22 January.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
24 TOM HANEY: So that could have been that.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember what
0393
1 was in them.
2 TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be
3 opened?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone
13 partially, that was --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done
15 that to peek to see what was in there.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
17 TOM HANEY: Where did you do the bulk of your
18 Christmas shopping, the items you put in there?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all of this stuff right
20 here was from FAO Schwartz in New York. JonBenet got a
21 bicycle that year. I got a university bicycle, and she
22 got a twin doll which I mail ordered, and --
23 TOM HANEY: Did she get to ride her bike?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: She got to ride her bike.
25 TOM HANEY: Christmas day?

.

 

[UKGuy]

KOLAR CLAIMS BR OPENED THE GIFTS

James Kolar, Foreign Faction, Excerpt

I learned, over the course of my inquiry, that it was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this. Patsy had also told investigators that the unwrapped box of Lego toys in the same room was being hidden for Burke's upcoming January birthday.

I didn?t give much thought about the presence of Christmas presents in the room at the time, but would later think these played a role in some of the events that took place on Christmas day.

.