Long Easter Weekend Thread (Apr. 5, 6, 7, 8, & 9, 2012)

[dilbert]

And what defense lawyer, after hearing the story of what "really happened" and knowing the charges against his client, would advise the client to remain silent and wait 3 years to tell the story. Because they might not ever find the body so that would be a good thing right?

When they would know that by co-operating and telling LE what "really happened" and leading them to the crime scene and the victim at that time would likely have exonerated their client from everything but accessory and maybe obstruction charges which they could have pled down to the minimum penalty because their client had "no previous record".

They could have proven right there and then that TLM was a murderer who took her cues from Necro and duped that poor guy into driving her and the girl she was babysitting to a secluded place of her choosing and murdering her...over a drug debt.

:waitasec:

MOO

I totally understand what you and others are saying, I actually agree with you, leaving Victoria where she was for so long is a horrible thing
to do, but we don't yet know why MR chose not to tell anyone. We don't know what he told his lawyer and that his lawyer told him to not say anything, we are six weeks in to this trial and we don't really know anything about MR's state of mind during that time except for the little bit TLM testified to and quite frankly, her credibility is not what it would have been if she hadn't recanted her 2010 confession.

My heart aches for what happened to Victoria and it aches for her family, I cannot imagine experiencing the loss of a child the way they have, however, because I don't state that with every post I make, it doesn't make it not true. From the second I heard of Victoria's disappearance on April 8, 2009, this case has weighed heavily on my mind, from the helicopter over my house, from the massive police and media presence in my city, from feeling like I can't take my eyes off my son for one second (and he's 13!!) etc., I have been affected by it, much like everyone else here has.

I want to see justice for Victoria, no question about it, but when people are dismissing everything the defence says, mocking lawyers, and learning that police didn't examine evidence, well that has less to do with justice and more to do with one's own personal agenda/opinion, and when I see that happen, I speak up. I want the truth from both sides, justice doesn't come from hearing only one side (the Crown) it comes from both, and giving the accused the benefit of the doubt ensures that both sides are heard and understood.

The trial is not over and IMO, the most important parts are yet to come. Justice is ensuring the right person is punished for the right reasons.

MOO

 

[swedie]

Have you all heard of Occam's Razor? Basically it states that the explanation that makes the fewest assumptions is usually correct. No, it's not foolproof, but I also feel that many of these excuses being made for MTR are unreasonable. He drove the car. He drove past the school (repeatedly). He was with TLM. He lied to the police. He was there when a little girl was murdered.

I don't really buy the drug debt theory, so therefore I don't buy that TLM kidnapped her for that purpose. And let's face it, when a man is involved in a kidnapping of a child that is not his own, it's usually for sexual purposes.

So we can assume:

-MTR was an innocent dupe who had no idea what was going on until it was too late
-he had no idea why TLM really wanted to stop at the Home Depot (and why in Guelph? Isn't there one in Woodstock or at least London?)
-he was unaware of the social protocol that you just don't take a strange child in your car--or ANY child, without their parent's explicit permission.
-he was also unaware that driving said child far out of town went even further against the social protocol
-he was waiting in the parking lot of the retirement home because...there was too much traffic? Nobody seems to want to touch that one
-he drove out in the country just for the hell of it--again, with that strange child in his car
-he pulled into a VERY secluded spot just so that TLM could talk to Tori without him present
-he walked far enough away that not only could he not hear them talking, but he also couldn't hear or see TLM viciously murdering Tori with a hammer, using more force than was necessary to kill her
-he was also far enough away that he couldn't hear Tori screaming
-he didn't hear or see his trunk open for TLM to obtain the murder weapon and garbage bags
-he was terrified of her even though he was quite muscular at the time, and almost certainly stronger than her
-instead of backing away slowly from the murderous maniac, jumping in his car, locking the doors, and taking off without her, he helped her clean up this vicious murder of a child
-not only did he help her clean it up, but he also then drove her back to her town, dropped her off far from her own house (would you take that chance of ticking off a maniac by leaving her to walk home in shoes that didn't fit if you were afraid of her? I wouldn't), and then tried to help her disguise her identity
-he kept it all a secret and didn't help her family get closure even though he was simply an innocent dupe and didn't have anything more shameful than that to hide
-her blood was found in his car because...she had a nosebleed?
-he got rid of the seat because he suddenly decided, after participating in cleaning up a murder, that it would be a fine time to spruce up his car
-he had TLM discard chunks of the seat because...you got me with that one. <modsnip>.

No, that's too many assumptions for me to make. I think this case is a lot simpler than that.

We can also assume that he was abducted by aliens, his car seat was beamed up into their ship never to be seen again, and he was a victim of their mind control and that's why he did nothing, before or after. But is it reasonable? No.

And that's why I think it's unreasonable to keep trying to explain this all away. Taken together, it looks clear to me.

:blowkiss::tyou::goodpost::loveyou::heartluv::skip:

Thank you for your well thought out practical post Kittymama

 

[Bravo]

We may never learn who delivered exactly what kick or what hammer blow. They were both there. Had their own agenda's in my opinion. Despite my opinion they are both culpable in the horrific death and cover up of Victoria Stafford. End of story and a very tragic horrific one :rose:

 

[swedie]

I don't know who wrote the notes, and the handwriting does look similar, but not identical. I also think it looks like "pants," BUT it also looks like they spelled the word money wrong. It looks like there is no e. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, just how it looks to me and a bit odd. In any case, it really seems like this lot of evidence was just introduced and that they will go over it in greater detail next week. I hope so, anyway.

Hopefully eventually we will find out exactly what that word is. For now I believe it is safe to assume MR was a druggie and dealing drugs. :moo:

 

[roseofsharon]

In one of the pictures inside CM's home, there appears to be clothing, maybe even two of the same folded that looks the same colour blue as the blue top MTR was wearing in that picture to do with mystery theatre.

Just MOO

 

[snoofer]

lol, that's exactly what I did too.:blushing:

try control + or -:floorlaugh:

 

[antiquegirl]

I totally understand what you and others are saying, I actually agree with you, leaving Victoria where she was for so long is a horrible thing
to do, but we don't yet know why MR chose not to tell anyone. We don't know what he told his lawyer and that his lawyer told him to not say anything, we are six weeks in to this trial and we don't really know anything about MR's state of mind during that time except for the little bit TLM testified to and quite frankly, her credibility is not what it would have been if she hadn't recanted her 2010 confession.

My heart aches for what happened to Victoria and it aches for her family, I cannot imagine experiencing the loss of a child the way they have, however, because I don't state that with every post I make, it doesn't make it not true. From the second I heard of Victoria's disappearance on April 8, 2009, this case has weighed heavily on my mind, from the helicopter over my house, from the massive police and media presence in my city, from feeling like I can't take my eyes off my son for one second (and he's 13!!) etc., I have been affected by it, much like everyone else here has.

I want to see justice for Victoria, no question about it, but when people are dismissing everything the defence says, mocking lawyers, and learning that police didn't examine evidence, well that has less to do with justice and more to do with one's own personal agenda/opinion, and when I see that happen, I speak up. I want the truth from both sides, justice doesn't come from hearing only one side (the Crown) it comes from both, and giving the accused the benefit of the doubt ensures that both sides are heard and understood.

The trial is not over and IMO, the most important parts are yet to come. Justice is ensuring the right person is punished for the right reasons.

MOO

BRAVA! This is exactly how I feel, too. As the mother of three daughters and the grandmother of one, I can't even make myself go to the places that this case has conjured up. My mind can't comprehend or grasp anything like this happening to one of them. So, I have unconsciously kept myself detached and unemotional in order to stay subjective. Sometimes it's been very hard, but otherwise I could never participate in these forums. I know that I can't be emotional and analytical at the same time, that emotions will not bring Tori back, but that by staying rational and judicious, maybe I can come up with some answers to explain this horrendous crime.

JMO

 

[Ardy]

And what defense lawyer, after hearing the story of what "really happened" and knowing the charges against his client, would advise the client to remain silent and wait 3 years to tell the story. Because they might not ever find the body so that would be a good thing right?

When they would know that by co-operating and telling LE what "really happened" and leading them to the crime scene and the victim at that time would likely have exonerated their client from everything but accessory and maybe obstruction charges which they could have pled down to the minimum penalty because their client had "no previous record".

They could have proven right there and then that TLM was a murderer who took her cues from Necro and duped that poor guy into driving her and the girl she was babysitting to a secluded place of her choosing and murdering her...over a drug debt.

:waitasec:

MOO

What happened when TLM said MR did it? He got arrested and charged.

Why would it would be any different if he had called the police to the grisly scene and proclaimed his innocence?

He is proclaiming his innocence now....and the Crown doesn't believe him.

Personally, I would have called police and hoped that a jury in the future would find me innocent..........but there is no guarantee of that result.

 

[snoofer]

I agree Alison that some comments on here can be upsetting. Personally, I find some of the offhanded 'laughing' emoticons sometimes tasteless, annoying and aggravating. (Those are the ones that I think could be upsetting to the family!)

BUT I do appreciate being able to come to a place where I can access a multitude of viewpoints.
I think that many of the people here who play 'devil's advocate' are a balancing factor here, as they prevent this forum from simply becoming a 'lynch mob'!
I consider myself an intelligent, analytical and compassionate person...but I almost DAILY hear someone else's viewpoint that keeps me from jumping to a premature conclusion.

JMO

perhaps you can lobby the owners to rid their sight of them:moo: I believe that the tasteless emoticons have been used for exactly what they are provided for...example when the defense becomes a bit rediculous

 

[swedie]

Really? I feel like a newbie in these threads <modsnip> my impression from reading here is the opposite. Despite having some sense of what was coming, most people seem genuinely shocked and horrified by the actual facts of the case. I highly doubt anyone wants the accused to turn out to be worse than we imagined. It's the evidence, not our gruesome imaginations, that is painting a picture of Rafferty and this crime. And the story that is emerging is far worse, IMO, than most would have been able to dream up.

Of course, we don't know what events happened for sure. That's what the evidence is for, and that's why we (including you) are talking about it on a message board devoted to discussing and speculating about crimes and trials...er, right?

JMO

Another great poster with compassion, very valuable information and a level head. Thank you kindly Abbey. :blowkiss:

 

[Kittymama]

What happened when TLM said MR did it? He got arrested and charged.

Why would it would be any different if he had called the police to the grisly scene and proclaimed his innocence?

He is proclaiming his innocence now....and the Crown doesn't believe him.

Personally, I would have called police and hoped that a jury in the future would find me innocent..........but there is no guarantee of that result.

-There'd be proven to be no evidence of sexual assault, if that is not what happened and he had called police right away
-his fingerprints would not be on the hammer
-he'd at least have the moral standing of not letting her family flounder for months, not knowing where their baby girl was
-his story would make a lot more sense if he'd spoken up immediately


<modsnip> :waitasec:

 

[ChaChaCha]

I don't think there are many here who are "supporting MR...it's just that the only witness to all the acts he is accused of is a known , druggie & liar and self confessed murderer... who has lied and changed her story too many times to be given any credibility..her writings.. killing her dog.. beating up of her Mother.. etc. etc. etc.... so far all we know about MR and his involvement is the video at a few places...I don't think his lawyer has stated that he was there...he only made a suggestion to buck her lies....so to sum up...many on here are giving him the benefit of doubt UNTIL we have all evidence presented... then I am sure IF proven that he did indeed help swing the hammer then I am sure many will decide at that time...for me, the fact that he was there (if proven) will be enough for me to accept that he should be punished and serve a jail sentence...I am not on here to make fun of him nor pretend I know him or his character....I do think he was doing something with those drugs, whether selling them or using them...I detest when I read others being very descriptive of a possible rape of that child and how it was done etc... and <modsnip>... this case is almost the worse that I have ever read about or followed ( I thought RW was satan but from what I have read about TLM to date (whether true or not) well he has a partner... everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I appreciate that and what I write is my belief and I am not trying to sway anyone into my court.....:moo:

Great post ... thank you.

 

[ChaChaCha]

I totally understand what you and others are saying, I actually agree with you, leaving Victoria where she was for so long is a horrible thing
to do, but we don't yet know why MR chose not to tell anyone. We don't know what he told his lawyer and that his lawyer told him to not say anything, we are six weeks in to this trial and we don't really know anything about MR's state of mind during that time except for the little bit TLM testified to and quite frankly, her credibility is not what it would have been if she hadn't recanted her 2010 confession.

My heart aches for what happened to Victoria and it aches for her family, I cannot imagine experiencing the loss of a child the way they have, however, because I don't state that with every post I make, it doesn't make it not true. From the second I heard of Victoria's disappearance on April 8, 2009, this case has weighed heavily on my mind, from the helicopter over my house, from the massive police and media presence in my city, from feeling like I can't take my eyes off my son for one second (and he's 13!!) etc., I have been affected by it, much like everyone else here has.

I want to see justice for Victoria, no question about it, but when people are dismissing everything the defence says, mocking lawyers, and learning that police didn't examine evidence, well that has less to do with justice and more to do with one's own personal agenda/opinion, and when I see that happen, I speak up. I want the truth from both sides, justice doesn't come from hearing only one side (the Crown) it comes from both, and giving the accused the benefit of the doubt ensures that both sides are heard and understood.

The trial is not over and IMO, the most important parts are yet to come. Justice is ensuring the right person is punished for the right reasons.

MOO

:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

 

[roseofsharon]

What happened when TLM said MR did it? He got arrested and charged.

Why would it would be any different if he had called the police to the grisly scene and proclaimed his innocence?

He is proclaiming his innocence now....and the Crown doesn't believe him.

Personally, I would have called police and hoped that a jury in the future would find me innocent..........but there is no guarantee of that result.

First of all, why didn't he stop it from happening, why didn't he scream for help, why didn't he call 911, why didn't he use his muscles to handle TLM, why didn't he drive to the MF police station, why didn't he run to the house at the end of the road for help. No, not because he was afraid of TLM and her hommies.

If he were an innocent man, had he immediately gone to LE, told them he needed a lawyer and told everything he knew, he would not be sitting where he is today.

And with TLM's criminal history, LE would have believed him over anything she would have had to say.


MOO

 

[swedie]

So this is where it's at; MR drove a child over two hours away from her loved ones in his car with TLM. Somehow Tori ended up deceased and buried under a rock pile while the two people who threw her there and abandoned her there, went about their merry lives without telling LE.

According to Canadian law they are guilty of abduction and first degree murder. And IMHO that is how it will end. If no evidence is found to prove sexual assault, so be it. Those two other charges are enough to put both TLM and MR away for 25 years. NOT long enough IMHO.

 

[roseofsharon]

I wonder what the jury thinks of all his eye rolling!

 

[swedie]

I wonder what the jury thinks of all his eye rolling!

IMHO Drama King :floorlaugh:

 

[Kamille]

What happened when TLM said MR did it? He got arrested and charged.

Why would it would be any different if he had called the police to the grisly scene and proclaimed his innocence?

He is proclaiming his innocence now....and the Crown doesn't believe him.

Personally, I would have called police and hoped that a jury in the future would find me innocent..........but there is no guarantee of that result.

If he had called police to the scene, according to his version of the story, they would not have found any evidence of a sexual assault by him and they would have found a crazed drug addict standing there with a hammer with her prints all over it. And they would have found a very scared, dazed and confused man wondering WTH happened. That's why IMO he didn't call them. Because that is not what they would have found at all.

It's because he didn't call police to the scene at the time that the Crown does not believe him now. Because not calling them then and not saying anything about his "innocent version of events" for 3 full years just doesn't make sense if he truly did nothing other than get duped. They can not disprove TLM's claims of a sexual assault because the child's genitals were decomposed by the time they found her. And finding her was not thanks to him but ironically thanks to the drug addicted gansta liar. But ironically, MR is a drug addicted liar also. So why should we believe his version now instead of hers? Just because he was lucky enough to have been able to destroy or get rid of most of the evidence against him and he was lucky enough that TLM could not remember exactly where that secluded spot was even though she supposedly directed him there the first time?

MR did use his phone that night. To check his voice mails. Probably looking to see where his next deal was going to be. He did not use it to bring Victoria back to her family and get a crazed madwoman off the streets and put behind bars for life.

And IMO, that is because she really was the Bonnie to his Clyde. And I shudder to think that if not for that CASS video, they would have continued this pattern of behaviour, just as PB and KH did.


MOO

 

[ChaChaCha]

From The Star ... Where are they now .... update on Carol & others FYI

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario...-tori-stafford-murder-case-where-are-they-now

 

[ChaChaCha]

About the hair dye...

My understanding is that the actual box of hair dye from TLM's room was presented at trial - not just a photo, although a photo of the SKU was posted.

So I went to peek, thinking OMG no way a box of hair dye is going to turn TLMs hair from brown to blond ... and the hair "dye" isn't exactly as described in court - it is a highlighting kit - so that strands or sections or chunks of hair can be lightened to a somewhat blonde tone.

http://www.lorealparis.ca/haircolour/all-over-colour/feria/C100-extra-light-blonde.aspx

So then I wondered if perhaps MR had picked up the highlighting kit for Carol? Mini-makeover time? Did he perhaps pick it up as part of an errand,and while he was there chose a product for himself? Is that why the receipt was still at his mom's house? Was Carol going to reimburse him for the hair color? Last known photo of Carol has her hair brown - so obviously she dyes it.

For himself, MR chose an old favorite, Frost & Tip, which is apparently only sold in Canada.

This guy was obviously not a master of disguise, but a peacock ...