Luka Magotta AKA Eric Newman Trial, Week Nov 20, 2014 - Trial Thread #4

[Rayemonde]

Okay so he likely lied about taking Paxil and Temazepam to get the prescription for both, even though he only intended to fill the prescription for the Temazepam. By lying about the Paxil he was just humouring Dr. Paris about being diagnosed with BPD. So did Dr. Paris renew the prescriptions? He supposedly referred LM back to the clinic. Did someone there renew the prescriptions?


Why is it so difficult to figure out WHO prescribed the Temazapam or HOW he got it? :gaah:

MOO

Nobody renewed the prescription as far as we know. He said that it was some old stuff he had left. Or maybe he bought some new from a drug dealer.

 

[Rayemonde]

I wonder if he'd even planned on using temazepam for his scheme :thinking: The post he put online earlier that years asked about the best sedative, and mentions liquid morphine. Did he try to get any liquid morphine from anywhere? He obviously knew of drug dealers he could have asked.

He must have know that it was unlikely that he could just go to a walk-in clinic and get temazepam. Doctors are very strict with it because it's so addictive. And why would it have to be temazepam? Other strong sleeping tablets such as zolpidem and zopiclone are not so strictly regulated as they are less addictive, so he could have asked for them instead.

I think this was probably just him being a lazy, sloppy sort of person. Half-hearted attempts to photoshop pictures of himself, half-hearted attempt to clean up the murder scene, half-hearted attempt to get hold of a strong sedative to put his plan into action. Maybe the temazepam he had really was old stuff he'd had for ages, and that's why he tried it out on the Colombian first! :O He thought he'd combine old temazepam, benydryl and wine and test it out on someone first to see if it knocked them out.

 

[Kamille]

Is it just me or are all these doctors just proving that the whole psychiatric profession is really just a big guessing game? And that, especially in cases of criminal behaviour, there is a lot of misdiagnosing due to "malingering" for secondary gain? And that no one can really be sure if someone is faking or truly experiencing symptoms of mental illness because everyone has a different viewpoint.

Doesn't help either that the accused gets to pick and choose who to "perform" for.

MOO

 

[DaveNP]

I need to catch up on last 2 pages but have to say,i still think hes been faking majority of time his whole life,including toward his own family.

Tamazepan is actually quite a popular drug of choice if speak to right group of people !!

Not sure about the other drugs hes taken,but I think it fair to say ANY drug that has ANY effects,there will be someone out there who likes it.........


Side note >>> I don't think the main reason he was faking was for prescription drugs,that was probably a bonus.....

 

[Kamille]

I wonder if he'd even planned on using temazepam for his scheme :thinking: The post he put online earlier that years asked about the best sedative, and mentions liquid morphine. Did he try to get any liquid morphine from anywhere? He obviously knew of drug dealers he could have asked.

He must have know that it was unlikely that he could just go to a walk-in clinic and get temazepam. Doctors are very strict with it because it's so addictive. And why would it have to be temazepam? Other strong sleeping tablets such as zolpidem and zopiclone are not so strictly regulated as they are less addictive, so he could have asked for them instead.

I think this was probably just him being a lazy, sloppy sort of person. Half-hearted attempts to photoshop pictures of himself, half-hearted attempt to clean up the murder scene, half-hearted attempt to get hold of a strong sedative to put his plan into action. Maybe the temazepam he had really was old stuff he'd had for ages, and that's why he tried it out on the Colombian first! :O He thought he'd combine old temazepam, benydryl and wine and test it out on someone first to see if it knocked them out.

Can't see why he wouldn't think it was easy to get Temazepam or any other drug from a clinic. It worked in Toronto. He even got Viagra as a bisexual male in his 20's who was an escort for a living. Seriously? Without being sent for even one test or to even one specialist?

I think he just went in to these clinics, told them he moved, told them what his previous doctors had prescribed and expected to be prescribed the same. And he knew he had to throw in either a BPD or schizophrenia diagnosis to get the strong stuff like Temazepam. And of course that would allow him to talk about himself as well. Something he seems to love doing. Even if he kept changing up the script with the basic story remaining the same. :notgood:

MOO

 

[Kamille]

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 12m12 minutes ago
Dr. Chamberland is now explaining personality disorders to the court. #Magnotta

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 6m6 minutes ago
Chamberland: personality disorder is not an illness per se. It's part of a personality so can't be treated with meds, only therapy #Magnotta

Afternoon break

 

[Rayemonde]

Michaël Nguyen @MNguyenJDM · 13m 13 minutes ago
The jury returns. Dr Chamberland comments on an article written by Dr Paris, a colleague who testified Tuesday in the trial #Magnotta
Le jury de retour. Le Dr Chamberland commente un article écrit par le Dr Paris, un collègue ayant témoigné mardi au procès #Magnotta

Michaël Nguyen @MNguyenJDM · 4m 4 minutes ago
Dr. Chamberland now explains the personality disorders . It's like a basic psychiatry courses. #Magnotta
Le Dr Chamberland explique maintenant les troubles de la personnalité. C'est comme un cours de psychiatrie de base. #Magnotta

Chamberland speaks of three case histories, writen about by psychiatrist Joel Paris
#Magnotta. Le Dr Chamberland parle de trois histoires de cas, retrouvés dans un écrit du psychiatre Joel Paris

christianedesjardins @chridesjardins · 9m 9 minutes ago
SOmetimes we confuse schizophrenia with another illness, explains Dr Chamberland.
Il arrive qu'on confonde la schizophrénie avec une autre maladie, explique Dr Chamberland. #Magnotta.

christianedesjardins @chridesjardins · 8m 8 minutes ago
It is not schizophrenia that comitted this act, it is the personality of Magnotta. The personality disorder.
Si ce n'est pas la schizophrénie qui a fait agir #Magnotta, c'est sa personnalité. Un trouble de personnalité.

François Messier @MessierSRC · 11m 11 minutes ago
"It is not schizophrenia that explains the behaviour of Magnotta, it is his personality" says Chamberland again
"Si ce n'est pas la schizophrénie qui explique le comportement de M. #Magnotta, c'est sa personnalité" dit encore Chamberland

François Messier @MessierSRC · 6m 6 minutes ago
" Qqun has a personality disorder from the when his way of being brings him problems " -Chamberland #Magnotta
"Qqun a un trouble de la personnalité à partir du moment où sa façon d'être lui amène des problèmes" -Chamberland #Magnotta

François Messier @MessierSRC · 3m 3 minutes ago
"The personality can not be treated with medication" says Chamberland
"La personnalité ne peut pas se traiter avec des médicaments", ajoute Chamberland. #Magnotta

François Messier @MessierSRC · 2m 2 minutes ago
Pause for afternoon break
Pause de l'après-midi au procès #Magnotta

 

[Rayemonde]

Dr Tan who prescribed the viagra knew that LM was (allegedly ) taking a load of antipsychotics and antidepressants though, and most of those can cause erectile dysfunction as a common side-effect. So it wouldn't be surprising that he was having problems. Dr Tan is a GP so he didn't deal with any of the psychiatric drugs - didn't change them or alter the doses. GPs don't have the specialised knowledge needed to do that. A psychiatrist is someone who does the GP training and then trains for several years more to become a psychiatrist (at least here in the UK that's how it works). When he moved to Montreal, LM knew he had to get referred to a psychiatrist before he could ask for his paxil and temazepam - he would be even less likely to get temazepam from a GP.

 

[Rayemonde]

Michaël Nguyen @MNguyenJDM · 22s 23 seconds ago
Return of the jury. After gardening analogies, Dr Chamberland explains personality disorder via the DSM-V.
Retour du jury. Après les analogies de jardinage, le Dr Chamberland explique les troubles de la personnalité via le DSM-V. #Magnotta

François Messier ‏@MessierSRC 3m3 minutes ago
Magnotta trial resumes. Dr Chamberland explains the criteria for diagnosing personality disorders, according to the DSM5
Procès #Magnotta reprend. Dr Chamberland explique les critères pour diagostic de troubles de la personnalité, selon DSM5

François Messier @MessierSRC · 48s 49 seconds ago|
Personality disorders requires behaviour that deviates significantly from what is expected of an individual - Chamberland
Un trouble de la personnalité requiert un comportement qui dévie significativement de ce qu'on attend d'un individu -Chamberland #Magnotta

rançois Messier @MessierSRC · now 3 seconds ago
This deviation must be observed in 2 domains amongst the following: cognitie, relationships with others, impulses
Cette déviance doit s'observer dans 2 domaines parmi les suivant: cognitivité, affectivité, relations avec les autres, pulsions #Magnotta

François Messier @MessierSRC · 39s 40 seconds ago
The "pattern" must lead to problems; otherwise it is not a personality disorder -Chamberland
Ce "pattern" doit amener des problèmes; autrement, ce n'est pas un trouble de la personnalité -Chamberland #Magnott

christianedesjardins @chridesjardins · 2m 2 minutes ago
To be a personality disorder the person must have problems. A schizoid personality avoids others, is cut off from society but not a problem
Pour avoir un trouble de personn il faut avoir problème. Une personnalité schizoïde évite les autres, vit coupée de société mais pas probleme

christianedesjardins @chridesjardins · 2m 2 minutes ago
Someone who has a personality disorder can work to mitigate it, but will have it all their live, says Dr Chamberland.
Quelqu'un pris avec trouble de personnalité peut travailler pour l'atténuer, mais sera pris avec toute sa vie, dit Dr Chamberland. #Magnotta

 

[Kamille]

Dr Tan who prescribed the viagra knew that LM was (allegedly ) taking a load of antipsychotics and antidepressants though, and most of those can cause erectile dysfunction as a common side-effect. So it wouldn't be surprising that he was having problems. Dr Tan is a GP so he didn't deal with any of the psychiatric drugs - didn't change them or alter the doses. GPs don't have the specialised knowledge needed to do that. A psychiatrist is someone who does the GP training and then trains for several years more to become a psychiatrist (at least here in the UK that's how it works). When he moved to Montreal, LM knew he had to get referred to a psychiatrist before he could ask for his paxil and temazepam - he would be even less likely to get temazepam from a GP.

So we've seen no proof that Dr. Tan knew anything other than what LM was telling him? He was a clinic doctor. Very unlikely that he was holding a complete file for LM and was requesting anything from LM's psychiatrist to back up his claims. In fact LM followed this doctor to 3 separate clinics that he worked at. There is no shortage of GP's in Toronto and LM would have had no problem getting a permanent GP for himself in the area in which he lived who would hold a complete file on him, including information from his psychiatrist. He didn't want one because apparently Dr. Tan was not following up at all on anything LM was telling him IMO.

I can understand how this can happen. LM presents as an odd duck in general. It is just his personality. So when someone who presents like him would go to a clinic for a sore throat, they could pretty much say anything about their mental health and doctors would likely believe them. I mean, how many people would do this for attention and secondary gain? And LM had already established the record to back himself up if necessary. But somehow I don't think it was necessary because these doctors are busy and just don't have the time to wonder if they may be being played.

Looks like LM was having a much harder time of it in Montreal. Clinic doctor did not just take his word for anything and referred him to a psychiatrist and a sleep disorder clinic. Psychiatrist did not just prescribe but referred him back to clinic for follow up and pharmacology and a support group for BPD. He also wanted LM's records from Ontario for their next appointment.

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

François Messier @MessierSRC · 5m 5 minutes ago
Also, the personality disorder must not be caused by the consumption of drugs - Chamberland
Aussi, le trouble de personnalité ne doit pas être induit par consommation de drogues -Chamberland #Magnotta

François Messier @MessierSRC · 4m 4 minutes ago
The behaviour must also not be explained by another mental disorder
Il fait aussi que le comportement ne puisse pas s'expliquer par un autre trouble mental -Chamberland #Magnotta

François Messier @MessierSRC · 3m 3 minutes ago
Several psychiatrists concluded Magnotta had a disordered personality notes Chamberland
Plusieurs psy ont conclu à un trouble de la personnalité chez #Magnotta note Chamberland.

François Messier MessierSRC 7s · 7 minutes ago
[There are] 3 categories of personality disorders , Type A: paranoid ( suspicious ) , typical ( weird) schizoid ( hermit ) -Chamberland #Magnotta
3 catégories de troubles de la personnalité, type A: paranoïde (méfiant), typique (bizarre) schizoïde (ermite) -Chamberland #Magnotta

ME: he's talking about the three types or "clusters" of personality disorder:
Cluster A (the "odd, eccentric" cluster);
Cluster B (the "dramatic, emotional, erratic" cluster); and,
Cluster C (the "anxious, fearful" cluster).

François Messier @MessierSRC · 5m 5 minutes ago
But with Magnotta, we are talking more about personality disoder type B, says Chamberland. Elements of deficiency in childhood.
Mais pour #Magnotta, on parle plus d'un trouble de personnalité de type B, dit Chamberland. Éléments de carence dans l'enfance

François Messier @MessierSRC · 4m 4 minutes ago
Type B disorders concern theatrical, expansive who blame others, for example - Chamberland.
Troubles de type B concernent les gens théâtraux, expansifs, qui blâment les autres, par exemple. -Chamberland #Magnotta

François Messier @MessierSRC · 2m 2 minutes ago
For Magnotta, the psychiatrists return the traits of histrionic personality (Watts) and limit (Paris, and also Watts), says Chamberland
Pour #Magnotta, des psys ont retenu des traits de personnalité histrioniques (Watts) et limite (Paris, et aussi Watts), dit Chamberland

François Messier @MessierSRC · 7m 7 minutes ago
Histrionics: people who are excessively emotional, who search for attention, says Chamberland
Histrioniques: personnes qui ont des émotions excessives, qui cherchent de l'attention, dit Chamberland #Magnotta

François Messier @MessierSRC · 5m 5 minutes ago
Amongst the criteria judged histrionic: innappropriate sexual behavious, using your appearance to attract attention, etc.
Parmi critères pour être jugé histrionique: comportement sexuel inapproprié, utiliser son apparence pour attirer attention, etc #Magnotta

François Messier @MessierSRC · 3m 3 minutes ago
Innappropriate sexual behaviour:corresponds with the behaviour of Magnotta with the nurse in the detention centre RDP
Comportement sexuel inapproprié: correspond par ex. au comportement de #Magnotta vs infirmier au centre détention RDP -Chamberland

François Messier @MessierSRC · 4m 4 minutes ago
Attention-seeking: Magnotta went so far as to associate himself with Karla Homolka, even though it caused him problems
Attirer l'attention: #Magnotta pr ex. est allé jusqu'à s'associer à Karla Homolka, même si ça lui a créé des problèmes -Chamberland

François Messier @MessierSRC · 3m 3 minutes ago
In that case, there was no loss of control with reality, says Chamberland: the individual does what he wants
Dans ce cas-là, il n'y a pas de perte de contrôle avec la réalité, poursuit Chamberland: l'individu fait ce qu'il souhaite #Magnotta

François Messier @MessierSRC · 2m 2 minutes ago
Histrionic personalities might become strippers for example. Or is that does not work, *advertiser censored* stars...
Personnalités histrioniques peuvent par exemple devenir stripteaser. Et si ça ne fonctionne pas, vedette *advertiser censored*... -Chamberland #Magnotta

François Messier @MessierSRC · 53s 53 seconds ago
and if that does not work, the individual sinks eg. Magnotta killing kittens on video
Et si ça ne fonctionne pas, l'individu s'enfonce. Ex. #Magnotta a participé à des vidéos de chatons tués -Chamberland

Michaël Nguyen @MNguyenJDM · 7m 7 minutes ago
For the histrionics, bad reputation is better than no fame, says the psy.
Pour les histrioniques, une mauvaise renommée est mieux que pas de renommée, dit le psy. #Magnotta

François Messier @MessierSRC · 4m 4 minutes ago
Also, people with type B personality disorders tend to blame other. Manny, in the case of Magnotta.
Aussi, gens qui ont troubles de personnalités de type B tendent à blâmer les autres. Manny, dans le cas de #Magnotta par ex -Chamberland

François Messier @MessierSRC · 2m 2 minutes ago
End of the day in the Magnotta trial. Back Monday 09:30
Fin de la journée au procès #Magnotta. De retour lundi, 9h30

 

[Kamille]

I think this doctor is way more correct in his diagnosis than the others and that's likely for two different reasons.

1...he's the prosecution expert so his view will be skewed more towards LM being criminally responsible. He is not trying to make excuses for him and he has no personal tie to him.

2...he's studied everything around LM and has not based his diagnosis on LM's self reporting. He's looked at probably a lot more in terms of LM's background on the internet as well to come to his conclusion.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

By the way Rayemonde, thanks for continuing with the tweets. Most of them are saying the same thing, which is not much, so I didn't think we needed to repeat it all.

 

[Kamille]

ME: he's talking about the three types or "clusters" of personality disorder:
Cluster A (the "odd, eccentric" cluster);
Cluster B (the "dramatic, emotional, erratic" cluster); and,
Cluster C (the "anxious, fearful" cluster).

Seems to me that LM was reading up on this stuff and was going for a trifecta. :floorlaugh:

MOO

 

[Kamille]

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 21m21 minutes ago
People w/ Cluster A personality disorders often mistakenly diagnoses as having schizophrenia.Psychiatrists who saw #Magnotta found cluster B

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 19m19 minutes ago
Chamberland says those with cluster B disorders are theatrical, seeking attention, tend to blame others. #Magnotta

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 12m12 minutes ago
Chamberland believes #Magnotta has histrionic personality disorder. Same diagnosis as Dr. Watts, 1 of psychiatrists for the defence.

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 11m11 minutes ago
1 criteria for histrionic disorder: inappropriate sexual seductive behaviour.Chamberland uses eg when #Magnotta made advances 2 prison nurse

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 7m7 minutes ago
Another criteria for histrionic is seeking attention. Chamberland says #Magnotta did this with Homolka dating rumours, cat torture videos.

(ME: I guess he couldn't throw in the murder as an example of attention seeking but I hope it's implied by this jury)

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 7m7 minutes ago
For those with histrionic personality disorder, negative attention is better than no attention at all, says Chamberland. #Magnotta

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 2m2 minutes ago
About to get into borderline personality disorder, but time's up. Dr. Chamberland will resume testimony on Monday morning #Magnotta #cbcmtl

 

[Rayemonde]

Is it just me or are all these doctors just proving that the whole psychiatric profession is really just a big guessing game? And that, especially in cases of criminal behaviour, there is a lot of misdiagnosing due to "malingering" for secondary gain? And that no one can really be sure if someone is faking or truly experiencing symptoms of mental illness because everyone has a different viewpoint.

Doesn't help either that the accused gets to pick and choose who to "perform" for.

MOO

Psychiatry is not on trial here. In any court case you can get the battle of the experts - eg did the baby die from asphyxiation or natural causes? Did the DNA get left there during the crime or was it transferred in some innocent way? Is it possible from the bullet hole that the shooter was standing over there, or must he have been over there?

Most people who malinger to get prescription drugs or disability allowance will claim back pain, or depression, or crippling anxiety. It's a lot.easier to fake than schizophrenia and doesn't have the same stigma attached. People also fake epilepsy, migraines, chronic fatigue, paralysis, and even stuff that doctors can test for, like cancer. It doesn't mean that none of these things exist or shouldn't be treated seriously, or that the science behind them is 'voodoo science' or complete guesswork.

Plus there is a lot of misdiagnosis in all fields of medicine, and that is why.people ask for a second opinion. My neighbour was treated for multiple sclerosis for years and it turned out to be motor neuron disease. My friend went through years of tests before she was diagnosed with lupus. Diagnosis isn't always simple and experts don't always agree.

 

[Rayemonde]

Seems to me that LM was reading up on this stuff and was going for a trifecta. :floorlaugh:

MOO

:rolling:

 

[Rayemonde]

I think this doctor is way more correct in his diagnosis than the others and that's likely for two different reasons.

1...he's the prosecution expert so his view will be skewed more towards LM being criminally responsible. He is not trying to make excuses for him and he has no personal tie to him.

2...he's studied everything around LM and has not based his diagnosis on LM's self reporting. He's looked at probably a lot more in terms of LM's background on the internet as well to come to his conclusion.

MOO

3. He's being paid by the prosecution. He's being paid just as much as Allard and Watts were.

4. He likes to get his name in the paper, and he'd already 'diagnosed' LM and was giving interviews about it before LM was even arrested.

I think you guys are being too hard on Dr tan, too. From what I can remember, the worst thing be ever did was give LM about 5 Viagra tablets in the 8 years or so that he was seeing him. He didn't prescribe him any psychotropic drugs at all. Not sure about Canada but here your specialist Dr (eg psychiatrist or neurologist or oncologist) would write to your GP and tell them all the meds you are on and everything. They do NOT just take your word for. Your GP needs to know what you are on so he doesn't accidentally prescribe something that will cause a fatal interaction. Why just assume that there was no liaison between the gap and the psychiatrists?

 

[maxfactor]

At one point, discussing Dr. Barth’s report, Dr. Chamberland scoffed, “It’s a show … it’s not symptoms of psychosis or schizophrenia, it’s more of over-acting something.”

“It’s clear,” he said, “that whatever medications you give him, the symptoms will remain because they’re not related to an illness.” Or as he put it another time, “Medication can’t change a personality.”

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...acting-than-schizophrenia-doctor-tells-court/

 

[Kamille]

Psychiatry is not on trial here. In any court case you can get the battle of the experts - eg did the baby die from asphyxiation or natural causes? Did the DNA get left there during the crime or was it transferred in some innocent way? Is it possible from the bullet hole that the shooter was standing over there, or must he have been over there?

Most people who malinger to get prescription drugs or disability allowance will claim back pain, or depression, or crippling anxiety. It's a lot.easier to fake than schizophrenia and doesn't have the same stigma attached. People also fake epilepsy, migraines, chronic fatigue, paralysis, and even stuff that doctors can test for, like cancer. It doesn't mean that none of these things exist or shouldn't be treated seriously, or that the science behind them is 'voodoo science' or complete guesswork.

Plus there is a lot of misdiagnosis in all fields of medicine, and that is why.people ask for a second opinion. My neighbour was treated for multiple sclerosis for years and it turned out to be motor neuron disease. My friend went through years of tests before she was diagnosed with lupus. Diagnosis isn't always simple and experts don't always agree.

While I realize that psychiatry isn't on trial here, there is no doubt how the victim died and who did it. So to traipse in a litany of "psychiatric experts" with opposing views, in front of a jury full of laymen on the subject and expect them to pick which one is most likely to be correct in regards to whether the defendant was or was not criminally responsible at the time of the murder, seems ridiculous to me. Especially when the defendant's legal team has likely argued out a lot of pertinent information about the defendant that is important in making a true diagnosis of what, if any, illness or disorder he may have.

Wouldn't it make much more sense for all of these doctors to be sitting around deliberating over the records and ALL the information available about LM amongst themselves to make a determination of whether he was criminally responsible at the time of the murder? Rather than a group of people who did not spend years studying psychiatry and working with patients? Who now have to decide which doctor/side they choose to believe? And they have to be unanimous about it.

Personally I think Dr. Allard is just a hired gun and her testimony was useless. I think if Dr. Watts and Dr. Chamberland were to get together to discuss LM as a patient and not as a defendant (that one of them spent 40 hours with and is being paid to defend), Dr. Watts would agree with Dr. Chamberland that LM was not in a psychotic state at the time of the murder and that he was malingering when he was picked up in Berlin.

MOO