LYONS AUDIO TAPES and BS VIDEO GONE? Discussion with R HORNSBY here

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I think it would be interesting to know how many defense attorneys have been victims of violent crime or had a loved one in that predictament. I would also wonder if it changed the way they do their job and how many even changed careers as a result.

I know defense attorneys do have a job to defend their client, but it seems to me that they could do that without degrading victims of crime. I know there are good defense attorneys with morals, and I will not let Ms. Lyons comments jade me on the whole group.

It seems, to me, that we have seen some very bad examples of legal "professionals" in this case. I may be naive, but I do expect more from these "officers of the court"...I guess the larger the case, the more the vultures are drawn to it.

I always wondered how far defense attorney's would go to get their clients off if they had to take them home and let them live with them, let them hang out with their wives and babysit their children. You think they would want the BTK killer sleeping in their house? Of course they wouldn't. But I guess it's ok that after getting their clients off, these clients move next door to us to rape, murder and pillage our families and homes.
 
I do not talk about it either SFT in the 20 years since it's happened. I can say what happened but that's it. We are now kindred sisters who understand something I am sure both of us wish we couldn't. All the destruction it causes in lives/ and the holes it leaves in the soul. Much love to you. I hope you were able to deal with it better than I was. moo

I wonder is AL's daughter ever had to face that---what would her stance be then?
From the sound of her, I think she would cut off his "you know what".
 
I worked for a great defense firm in DC. I only lasted a year. As a paralegal I couldn't even believe some of the stuff I witnessed. It takes a "special kind" to be a defense attorney IMO. Certain morals just fly out of the window in this profession. I even felt "dirty" doing research on most of the cases we defended. Bottem line is that is their job, as sick as it may be, their job is to find loopholes, discredit, point fingers...you name it. It's IMO a very sleezy job, not one that many people can do and do well. As RH said "it's all about the fight", it's about WINNING..not how you got there, or not what the person did but WINNING. I can actually understand a bit b/c I was there. I have found a way to pretty much ignore half of the stuff coming from the defense, it's a matter of going through the motions(no pun intended.)

With all due respect, I think lawyers that become criminal defense attorneys do it b/c they know that's where the money's at...jmo...
 
(The above looks like I clip quoted, but I didn't) I think you would get a better idea of what folks are steamed up about if you listened to the whole thing. That way you have the whole context. It won't take that long, and you can be speaking from a position of actual knowledge. I think it's a little coy to claim other's aren't seeing the context when you're read only an excerpt. (I didn't react to it the same way most here are reacting, but that's just me.)

It looks like any member of the public can order a copy of AL's lecture from the FACDL's website (although I haven't tested the order form to see if it asks me if I'm an association member). That being the case, the real beef with the information being released appears to be more financial on the part of the organization--or simple bad publicity--rather than a disclosure of "confidential" information.

You haven't addressed the question of your own possible bias against WFTV and Shaeffer because WFTV *apparently* dumped you as a commentator and hired Shaeffer?

Finally, something that has always bothered me is your release of your advice to Baez. I'm not going to launch a detailed work product analysis here, but how was that proper, and how did it not violate your listserv's TOS?

I am taking a break from work, but will try to answer your questions and work in questions to some other things I have scanned.

As for the tapes, I really don't have the time to listen to them - nor do I need to so that I can answer your question.

What you want me to say is that her comments were outrageous and that she is evil, etc. But I have been to these seminars and they are as much pep talks and war stories as they are actual informational speeches.

So she used graphic language to get her point across about the people she deals with. Her language and her blunt delivery is no different than the delivery of the people who express their disgust for the Anthony defense. You may not want to admit that, but it is true.

As for ordering a copy of the materials, please try - it will be a dead end. If you haven't noticed, their website is not the most modern setup around. They basically have an email form that sends your information to their executive director. That person in turns verifies your membership by phone and then processes the delivery.

As for the organization's "beef," don't you think you are being a little too conspiratorial about why they are angry. Remember, they invited Ms. Lyon to speak because of her reputation as one of the country's top death penalty lawyers and she agreed to come. It is this seminar where Mr. Baez met her and apparently approached her about working on the case (he has previously said that is where he met her, I just don't think any of you put two and two together).

But now a member of the organization that has invited her dishonestly obtained the seminar materials for the sole purpose of distributing it to Ms. Belich. And now, Ms. Lyon is being vilified for the speech she gave. From FACDL's perspective (or any organization) it matters not whether it is deserved, it only matters that they will be unable to attract other quality speakers to their seminars because people will not trust its members to abide by an agreement not to distribute proprietary materials (simply meaning protected by copyright).

Now, much has been made of the financial motives for my actions (interestingly, most of you vilify the Anthony defense for questioning Mr. Kronk's). Well just like Mr. Kronk has tried to justify his "motives" by appealing to common sense, I will try to do the same.

The following is an email (modified at parts) I sent to a person who was filibustering (comment spamming) my blog because they thought I was only posting to get readers and for publicity. I think we have since agreed to disagree.
----------------
@Texas Girl - It was never about the publicity, in reality I lost the publicity that matters if that were my motive. While "internet fame” may seem important to online readers, continuing to be a legal commentator on local TV would have been much more lucrative to me in terms of attracting clients.

So, I could have continued on my merry way being on three different local news stations for the remainder of the case (NBC, FOX, and CFNews 13).

I knew before I posted my original post, that I would be unusable as a local commentator once I called out another local "expert." But to me, it was more important to point out he was misstating the law, for what I can only assume was to appeal to the pro-prosecution crowd.
--------------------

So if you still think I have something to gain, other than calling out a dishonest person in my ranks, you would be mistaken. I did the same to Baez (discussed below).

Now lets talk about the email - what exactly did I release, I released my own words blasting his handling of the case. And if you actually read what I wrote WHEN I wrote it, I foresaw this entire train wreck.

There is no prohibition anywhere that I am aware of that prohibits me from releasing my own thoughts. The email just provides verification of my current claims.

If this were a trial, my email would be considered a prior consistent statement made before I had a motive to "lie" to rebut inferences of recent fabrication.

In any event, I explained the philosophical justifications for my release in great detail in an earlier post. So I will not address this particular questions again - as I have answered it as best it can be answered.

(Coincidentally, that is the reason that only one lawyer for a party can question each witness, otherwise the witness would be saddled with a million different questions seeking the same answer, but never able to finish because each lawyer doesn't feel their question was answered good enough.)

I think that is all you asked, if there is more I may address later on today.
 
I always wondered how far defense attorney's would go to get their clients off if they had to take them home and let them live with them, let them hang out with their wives and babysit their children. You think they would want the BTK killer sleeping in their house? Of course they wouldn't. But I guess it's ok that after getting their clients off, these clients move next door to us to rape, murder and pillage our families and homes.

I once knew a Def. Atty who represented a parent in juvenile court, and then proceeded to take placement of the client's two children in her home. Of course this particular Atty kept the kids until they began to "cramp her style" and the kids were moved out immediately when the Def. Atty called and said, "come pick up these kids they can't stay one more minute". Sadly, I believe her motivation was purely for her self and she really cared nothing for the children (or she would never had put them through all of that).
 
Mr Hornsby, I am glad that you are still here checking in after 15 pages and multiple blogs. I do have to say I really don't have what it takes to be a good defense atty, as many others here have voiced. There are good points that you have raised about the conference and I appreciate that you put 2 and 2 together for us, however many valid points have been raised here and the fact you are going through them proves your tenacity. Would you mind telling us what motivated you to respond this way?
 
Wa wa wa
Does he need some cheese to go with his whine? moo
TY--BTW
So let me get this straight - Mr. Sheaffer posts on his blog that it abhorrent to him that Ms. Anthony's defense would adopty an "end justify the means" approach, but when he dishonestly obtained material he knew was not to be distributed, it was okay because it "honors the memory of Caylee?" So in such a case, his end - reporting on Ms. Lyon's speech - justifies his means - lying.

Make no mistake, he did not do that for altruistic reasons. He did not obtain the materials and then secretly distribute them to one of you to cause a sensation - he only obtained the materials for a story that he wanted to feed you. And for what?

Have you thought about how this really affects the case? He has just made it ten times as hard for the State to get a pro-prosecution jury, because the minute the content of those tapes comes up during jury selection - any person who disagrees or expresses disgust with them will be excluded for cause. And their feelings likely would not have been identified without the tapes to discuss. So then the jury pool starts becoming more pro-defense, because the people who are not removed for cause are the people who did not have a gripe with the content or means of delivery. Kathi Belich did that to your case - make no mistake, she played right into the Anthony defense camp by releasing tapes that have no evidentiary value.

And let us talk about the evidentiary value - below is an excerpt from the Florida Jury Instruction on deliberation that will be read to the jury:

3.10 RULES FOR DELIBERATION
These are some general rules that apply to your discussion. You must follow these rules in order to return a lawful verdict:
  1. You must follow the law as it is set out in these instructions. If you fail to follow the law, your verdict will be a miscarriage of justice. There is no reason for failing to follow the law in this case. All of us are depending upon you to make a wise and legal decision in this matter.
  2. This case must be decided only upon the evidence that you have heard from the testimony of the witnesses [and have seen in the form of the exhibits in evidence] and these instructions.
  3. This case must not be decided for or against anyone because you feel sorry for anyone, or are angry at anyone.
  4. Remember, the lawyers are not on trial. Your feelings about them should not influence your decision in this case
Now, make no mistake - Ms. Lyon's comments are not admissible evidence in any shape or form, they will not see the light of that courtroom.

So Mr. Sheaffer's reporting on them may have made everyone in here hate Ms. Lyon more - BUT IT DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO HELP THE STATE CONVICT CASEY ANTHONY.

Bill Sheaffer is a good lawyer, he should know there is no evidentiary value in the tapes and that the lawyers are not on trial.

He obtained the tapes so that he could feed the pro-prosecution viewers a juicy story - even if it might make it harder for the State to get a more favorable jury.

Personally, it seems such a tactic dishonors the memory of Caylee.

So, without blasting me, think about the logic behind my analysis of the true value of the tapes being released and ask yourself if you are being manipulated just like Baez tries to manipulate the other side.
 
Ya know, we never did her about JS's complaint to the Bar, did we?

JVM brought that up when Baez appeared on her show last week. Baez said that unfortunately stuff "came across his (JS) desk and he felt compelled to report it' - implying by his tone of voice and eye rolling that JS had received a complaint about Baez from a third party and reluctantly forwarded it to the Bar Association...
 
With all due respect, I think lawyers that become criminal defense attorneys do it b/c they know that's where the money's at...jmo...

OH absolutely TRUE..they sell their souls for A LOT of money. I can tell you the attorneys I worked with were LOADED. They also drank a lot LMAO.

AND I can also tell you as a paralegal I made the most money working for a CD firm. I just didn't have what it took LOL.
 
Mr Hornsby, I am glad that you are still here checking in after 15 pages and multiple blogs. I do have to say I really don't have what it takes to be a good defense atty, as many others here have voiced. There are good points that you have raised about the conference and I appreciate that you put 2 and 2 together for us, however many valid points have been raised here and the fact you are going through them proves your tenacity. Would you mind telling us what motivated you to respond this way?
I hate bad lawyering as much as you. You can dress it up with a pocket square, gaudy jewelry, or suspenders - I simply hate bad lawyering:furious:
 
I hate bad lawyering as much as you. You can dress it up with a pocket square, gaudy jewelry, or suspenders - I simply hate bad lawyering:furious:

lmao - I am getting visuals of gaudy jewelry and suspenders . . . . . . .

I think maybe your idea of "bad lawyering" differs from my view. I take it you think BS is committing the above referenced by having something to do with release of AL's tapes. Many of us here think AL fits well within your category of "bad lawyering" but maybe you could enlighten us how BS trumps AL in the "bad lawyering" criteria. I am really not trying to be a troll, I just think we could all have some common ground here
 
Have you thought about how this really affects the case? He has just made it ten times as hard for the State to get a pro-prosecution jury, because the minute the content of those tapes comes up during jury selection - any person who disagrees or expresses disgust with them will be excluded for cause. And their feelings likely would not have been identified without the tapes to discuss. So then the jury pool starts becoming more pro-defense, because the people who are not removed for cause are the people who did not have a gripe with the content or means of delivery. Kathi Belich did that to your case - make no mistake, she played right into the Anthony defense camp by releasing tapes that have no evidentiary value.

And let us talk about the evidentiary value - below is an excerpt from the Florida Jury Instruction on deliberation that will be read to the jury:

3.10 RULES FOR DELIBERATION
These are some general rules that apply to your discussion. You must follow these rules in order to return a lawful verdict:
  1. You must follow the law as it is set out in these instructions. If you fail to follow the law, your verdict will be a miscarriage of justice. There is no reason for failing to follow the law in this case. All of us are depending upon you to make a wise and legal decision in this matter.
  2. This case must be decided only upon the evidence that you have heard from the testimony of the witnesses [and have seen in the form of the exhibits in evidence] and these instructions.
  3. This case must not be decided for or against anyone because you feel sorry for anyone, or are angry at anyone.
  4. Remember, the lawyers are not on trial. Your feelings about them should not influence your decision in this case
Now, make no mistake - Ms. Lyon's comments are not admissible evidence in any shape or form, they will not see the light of that courtroom.

Bill Sheaffer is a good lawyer, he should know there is no evidentiary value in the tapes and that the lawyers are not on trial.

He obtained the tapes so that he could feed the pro-prosecution viewers a juicy story - even if it might make it harder for the State to get a more favorable jury.

Personally, it seems such a tactic dishonors the memory of Caylee.

So, without blasting me, think about the logic behind my analysis of the true value of the tapes being released and ask yourself if you are being manipulated just like Baez tries to manipulate the other side.


Snipped for space. BBM

Maybe I'm a bit slow, but when you say that Ms.Lyon's comments will never see the light of the courtroom, are you excluding jury selection? You seem to be saying two different things. Do you mean her comments will never make it into evidence at trial, but most certainly will be brought up in jury selection? Makes no sense to me.

Ms.Lyon to potential juror: "Have you ever heard me say that women prosecutors wear strap-ons and that I will do anything to win and jurors are stupid and that by definition, if you become a member of a death-qualified jury you are a killer?"

potential juror: "no".

Ms.Lyon: "your honor we'd like to have this person excluded on the basis that he/she has heard me say inflammatory things about myself and is thus unable to render an honest verdict based on the afacts of this case."

Huh? I seriously don't get it.
 
When you are knowingly harming a person that you know to be innocent, in an attempt to create doubt for your client, that to me should be unethical. I know that defense attorneys would never admit publically that they are doing that, but I don't know how a human can become so blinded by the pursuit of "the win" that they can excuse the collateral damage they are directly causing.

JMO

Very well said, Rlaub. Thank you.
 
Snipped for space. BBM

Maybe I'm a bit slow, but when you say that Ms.Lyon's comments will never see the light of the courtroom, are you excluding jury selection? You seem to be saying two different things. Do you mean her comments will never make it into evidence at trial, but most certainly will be brought up in jury selection? Makes no sense to me.

Ms.Lyon to potential juror: "Have you ever heard me say that women prosecutors wear strap-ons and that I will do anything to win and jurors are stupid and that by definition, if you become a member of a death-qualified jury you are a killer?"

potential juror: "no".

Ms.Lyon: "your honor we'd like to have this person excluded on the basis that he/she has heard me say inflammatory things about myself and is thus unable to render an honest verdict based on the afacts of this case."

Huh? I seriously don't get it.
LMAO!:woohoo:
 
I know the above post wasn't meant to be funny but I sure had a funny visual of her doing that!
 
Mr. Hornsby,
Welcome to WEbsleuths..
With all due respect, I could care less who, how and why these audio tapes hit the airwaves. I could care less about the dispute on who is right and who is wrong where case laws are concerned, especially given that we here have learned over the years to look those up for ourselves.
I disagree that the defense is being helped by this, or however you worded that. Unless the defense can find a city on this planet who has never had any crime committed, Casey Anthony is a goner. That is just my opinion..

"What you want me to say is that her comments were outrageous and that she is evil, etc. But I have been to these seminars and they are as much pep talks and war stories as they are actual informational speeches."

I don't want you to say that her comments were outrageous..I think we all heard them for ourselves, however unless you have been to a Military Hospital, I seriously doubt you can compare the "lets make up a story and see if it sticks" to a war story..sorry sir, but the comparison is in very poor taste.
 
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