GUILTY MA - Colleen Ritzer, 24, brutally murdered, Danvers, 22 Oct 2013 #2

[Skigirl]

I'm curious what they want to see again, there must be something specific. I would want to see PC coming out of the bathroom and how much blood he had on his clothes, then check what he looked like coming back from the woods. That would help me to decide if CR died in the bathroom or the woods.

Looks like I may be proven wrong in my prediction of a verdict by 3:30 today if they are just starting to look at video now. I hope we get the right verdict, regardless of when it is returned. But I hope the right verdict is returned today.

 

[Mollyandme]

I'm curious what they want to see again, there must be something specific. I would want to see PC coming out of the bathroom and how much blood he had on his clothes, then check what he looked like coming back from the woods. That would help me to decide if CR died in the bathroom or the woods.

I agree, that's the biggest question for me and I can see that being something that they really want to discuss because the rape charge hinges on that. This case is so upsetting. I do believe this jury will be very thorough and will arrive at the right verdicts

 

[Mollyandme]

Looks like I may be proven wrong in my prediction of a verdict by 3:30 today if they are just starting to look at video now. I hope we get the right verdict, regardless of when it is returned. But I hope the right verdict is returned today.

I think it will be at the end of today or tomorrow morning. I think the rape charge is one that might take a little while to come to a decision on

 

[katydid23]

I don't care if she was dead or alive at that point, she was still raped. And it is pathetic and disgusting to consider him 'not guilty' of rape because he had already brutally killed her. NO, that ius not a reason to give him a pass. GUILTY , imo.

 

[AnaTeresa]

I think the video is really key in this case - it shows premeditation. I am glad they are watching again. Most juries are very thorough with video evidence and take their duty seriously. I am going to put my bet in for tomorrow at 4pm, if they stop by 5pm today. I doubt Judge Lowy would make them stay late.

 

[Skigirl]

Bob Ward Fox25Verified account ‏@Bward3 5m5 minutes ago
At 11:30AM #PhilipChism jury is still deliberating. Jurors have been working now 5 1/2 hours. Heard they sent for lunch

Louisa Moller ‏@LouisaMoller 2m2 minutes ago
Jury still deliberating in #PhilipChism trial. Essex DA says, if convicted, Chism would receive life sentence, parole after 15-25 yrs

He may be a child, and perhaps his frontal lobes aren't fully developed, but there is more than a failure to appreciate the consequences and seriousness of his actions in this crime; more than a failure of impulse control. I don't think he did what he did because he wasn't a fully-functioning adult. I think he may have been caught because he's not a fully-functioning adult. In my opinion, a lack of impulse control is the failure to stop oneself from acting on an otherwise normal (even if violent) impulse, like attacking the man you found in bed with your wife or stealing a fancy pair of shoes you can't afford but dearly want. It isn't failing to control an impulse to rape and violate and brutally murder your teacher. No one who belongs among us should even have the impulses to do what he did in the first place, much less the need to control those impulses. I don't think he should ever get out because I think he is a bad and dangerous person, not a crazy person, just a bad person. I hope he goes away for the maximum and that future parole boards are wise enough to deny him parole well into his old age.

 

[MsJosie]

He may be a child, and perhaps his frontal lobes aren't fully developed, but there is more than a failure to appreciate the consequences and seriousness of his actions in this crime; more than a failure of impulse control. I don't think he did what he did because he wasn't a fully-functioning adult. I think he may have been caught because he's not a fully-functioning adult. In my opinion, a lack of impulse control is the failure to stop oneself from acting on an otherwise normal (even if violent) impulse, like attacking the man you found in bed with your wife or stealing a fancy pair of shoes you can't afford but dearly want. It isn't failing to control an impulse to rape and violate and brutally murder your teacher. No one who belongs among us should even have the impulses to do what he did in the first place, much less the need to control those impulses. I don't think he should ever get out because I think he is a bad and dangerous person, not a crazy person, just a bad person. I hope he goes away for the maximum and that future parole boards are wise enough to deny him parole well into his old age.

There still is another trial for him where he attacked another female, while he was in custody. IF convicted of that attack, the judge may have the sentences run one after the other, which may make him stay in jail for the rest of his life. I believe I am correct on this.

 

[coastal]

He may be a child, and perhaps his frontal lobes aren't fully developed, but there is more than a failure to appreciate the consequences and seriousness of his actions in this crime; more than a failure of impulse control. I don't think he did what he did because he wasn't a fully-functioning adult. I think he may have been caught because he's not a fully-functioning adult. In my opinion, a lack of impulse control is the failure to stop oneself from acting on an otherwise normal (even if violent) impulse, like attacking the man you found in bed with your wife or stealing a fancy pair of shoes you can't afford but dearly want. It isn't failing to control an impulse to rape and violate and brutally murder your teacher. No one who belongs among us should even have the impulses to do what he did in the first place, much less the need to control those impulses. I don't think he should ever get out because I think he is a bad and dangerous person, not a crazy person, just a bad person. I hope he goes away for the maximum and that future parole boards are wise enough to deny him parole well into his old age.

BBM. Thank you for saying this. I agree.

 

[Elainera]

As I see it, there are three main issues the jury members will have discussions about, none of them are clear cut.

- was PC trying to hide his crime? The videos sometimes show him hiding his face and changing clothes, yet at other times he is seen running around with blood on his hand, trousers etc. He also left his student id near the body. Surely this will spark discussions.

- did the different experts' testimonies show clearly that he either was or was not suffering from a mental illness at the time of the crime?

- was Colleen already dead when raped in the woods? They will have go over the coroner's testimony and try to make a decision on that point, which even she could not make.

I find the testimony for all three issues ambiguous and I can see potential for reasonable doubt arising in all three. I think the rape charge will not be sustained imo.

I don't think this will be a fast decision at all.

 

[jacct]

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 2m2 minutes ago
I'm hearing #PhilipChism jury has a question

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 2m2 minutes ago
Attorneys, family coming in courtroom now

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 2m2 minutes ago
People have returned to the courtroom. No word on what is happening.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 38s39 seconds ago
No idea yet what nature of jury question is, waiting for Judge Lowy, clerk

 

[jacct]

allison manningVerified account ‏@allymanning 1m1 minute ago
Families and friends have returned to the gallery. Two ADAs are here, but no defense attys or #PhilipChism. Not sure what's going on

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 39s39 seconds ago
It sounds as though the jury has a question. #PhilipChism lawyer just went to holding cell to speak to him.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 55s56 seconds ago
Still waiting for #PhilipChism in courtroom also

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 37s38 seconds ago
A court employee was looking for the clerk a few minutes ago

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Clerk showing attorneys copy of jurors question

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 1m1 minute ago
There is another defense lawyer now in the courtroom. Ron Ranta is sitting at a table inside the area called "the bar"

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 1m1 minute ago
He isn't connected with this case - as far as we know

 

[jacct]

Laurel J. SweetVerified account ‏@Laurel_Sweet 1m1 minute ago Yes, Judge Lowy's clerk emerges with a scrap of paper. "Question," she alerts MacDougall and Regan. Regan goes to #PhilipChism in lockup.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 2m2 minutes ago
Attorneys look at question and then copy of jury instructions

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 42s42 seconds ago
#PhilipChism still not in courtroom, unclear if he's coming out of his cell and back in courtroom

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 5m5 minutes ago
Still waiting for Judge and to find out what jury question is

Bob Ward Fox25Verified account ‏@Bward3 2m2 minutes ago
#PhilipChism is back in courtroom, there are 4 security officers all around him as we wait.
Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 4m4 minutes ago
#PhilipChism is staring straight ahead as we wait for Judge David Lowy.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 5m5 minutes ago
#PhilipChism jury has had case for more than 8 hours now for deliberations

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Judge Lowy takes the bench

 

[jacct]

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 1m1 minute ago
Judge is back. #PhilipChism jury is looking for additional clarification on instruction on rape.

Bob Ward Fox25Verified account ‏@Bward3 2m2 minutes ago
Judge Lowy is here: Jury is looking for clarification on aggravated rape in woods charge.

allison manningVerified account ‏@allymanning 2m2 minutes ago
#PhilipChism jury wants clarification on 2nd prong of agg rape indictment, about sexual intercourse being against victim's will.

allison manningVerified account ‏@allymanning 1m1 minute ago
That's the rape in the woods charge. Defense says Ritzer was dead, and therefore could not have been raped under Mass law.

Bob Ward Fox25Verified account ‏@Bward3 1m1 minute ago
To convict on aggr rape (woods) jury must find that Ritzer was alive in woods OR rape happened in 1 continuous event

Laurel J. SweetVerified account ‏@Laurel_Sweet 1m1 minute ago
Judge Lowy: "The issue is one we really don't have any case law on."

 

[jacct]

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 49s49 seconds ago
Lowy now reads the instructions to the courtroom

Laura Crimaldi ‏@lauracrimaldi 2m2 minutes ago
If you want to follow along, their question has to do with instructions on page 15, section 2: http://www.bostonglobe.com/2015/12/15/chism-trial-jury-instructions/wlGo1nI5Di2Yj6gWPhAx7O/story.html

Ethan Hartley ‏@Ehartley_DH_BC 2m2 minutes ago Salem, MA
No legal precedent for scenario that 1st rape in bathroom and 2nd in the woods was "one continuous offense" as state argues

allison manningVerified account ‏@allymanning 3m3 minutes ago
Judge proposed response, in part: "If you find Ms. Ritzer was dead in bathroom, you must find defendant not guilty of agg rape in the woods"

 

[Skigirl]

Laurel J. SweetVerified account ‏@Laurel_Sweet 1m1 minute ago Yes, Judge Lowy's clerk emerges with a scrap of paper. "Question," she alerts MacDougall and Regan. Regan goes to #PhilipChism in lockup.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 2m2 minutes ago
Attorneys look at question and then copy of jury instructions

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 42s42 seconds ago
#PhilipChism still not in courtroom, unclear if he's coming out of his cell and back in courtroom

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 5m5 minutes ago
Still waiting for Judge and to find out what jury question is

Bob Ward Fox25Verified account ‏@Bward3 2m2 minutes ago
#PhilipChism is back in courtroom, there are 4 security officers all around him as we wait.
Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 4m4 minutes ago
#PhilipChism is staring straight ahead as we wait for Judge David Lowy.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 5m5 minutes ago
#PhilipChism jury has had case for more than 8 hours now for deliberations

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Judge Lowy takes the bench

This is exactly what I predicted would hold up the verdict. I bet they have already decided he wasn't insane and is guilty of first degree murder, and are just stuck hashing out this one point. I must be psychotic... I mean, psychic.

 

[jacct]

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Lowy trying to find right words, instructions to give to jurors about aggravated rape charge in bathroom, woods

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 58s59 seconds ago
The defense and the prosecutions are concerned with proposal - defense accused the judge of burden shifting.

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 1m1 minute ago
The prosecution doesn't want to confuse jury about the law pertaining to the first sexual assault.

Bob Ward Fox25Verified account ‏@Bward3 1m1 minute ago
For jury to find one continuous act, jury must find death and rape happened close in time, almost simultaneous.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 44s44 seconds ago
Lowy notes in case of rape and murder, sometimes it's hard to tell when rape occurs b4 or after death

Ethan Hartley ‏@Ehartley_DH_BC 2m2 minutes ago Salem, MA
So it is up to the jury to make a call on whether or not Ritzer was dead in the woods. If so, #PhilipChism can't be guilty of unnatural rape

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 1m1 minute ago
The fact that jurors even wrangling over this suggests that they've already rejected insanity - otherwise wouldn't matter

 

[gxm]

This is exactly what I predicted would hold up the verdict. I bet they have already decided he wasn't insane and is guilty of first degree murder, and are just stuck hashing out this one point. I must be psychotic... I mean, psychic.

I so very much hope you're right.

 

[jacct]

Laura Crimaldi ‏@lauracrimaldi 1m1 minute ago
Judge Lowy proposes language to clear up the question. Jury comes in.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Lowy now addressing jury

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Lowy is going to read to jurors what he went over with attorneys

allison manningVerified account ‏@allymanning 2m2 minutes ago
Here's what Judge Lowy will read to the jurors to help clarify (as best I could scribble it down)

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Lowy sending jury back to deliberate

 

[atthelake]

I'm noting the verbiage of *against her will* and the rape charge.

In my mind it's a moot point because that's like saying if you rape somebody that's unconscious can they object.. is it against their will? So again I think they're trying to discuss whether she was deceased or not I agree with the other posters who have said that.

 

[Elainera]

The coroner wasn't able to say whether she was deceased or not when raped in the woods. How is the jury supposed to make a decision? Rolling a dice?