MA - Erin Pascal, 40, & 2 children, ages 4 & 15 mos., double murder/suicide, Boston, 25 Dec 2019

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Here's what I find confusing about this story. Mother and children were found on the sidewalk around 1:30pm local time on Christmas Day. How did no one see them? Were there no witnesses?
 
I’ve seen some wonder in comments elsewhere “Why didn’t her husband get help for her?” Calling 911 when he feared that she was suicidal is all he could do. No one can be forced into treatment unless they are a danger to themselves or others. While that is a protection for everyone, it isn’t helpful when a family member really needs help. And often, the need for help isn’t obvious until it’s too late. The lack of easily available mental health treatment is a serious problem.
 
watersheds said:
Here's what I find confusing about this story. Mother and children were found on the sidewalk around 1:30pm local time on Christmas Day. How did no one see them? Were there no witnesses?
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Mother who threw her kids off building then killed herself named as Erin Pascal | Metro News

Andre Serizawa said that his friends saw the horrific incident, and wrote on Facebook: ‘According to what (his friend) heard from a college student who saw what happened, the kids were crying and screaming before and after she threw them off the top of the garage followed by the impact of them hidding (sic) the ground before she jumped herself.’
 
Lilibet said:
Yes. This too. Thank you. And it happens to otherwise wonderful people who would never in a million years contemplate doing this if it weren’t for the “voices” or altered reality. With a 15 month old child, postpartum depression or psychosis is even possible. The children who were killed are possibly victims of their mother’s mental illness, sadly.

Suicide is such a fraught and complicated subject. It is horrible for the survivors who have every right to feel hurt and angry. On the surface, suicide seems selfish and unloving, and perhaps it is sometimes. If this mother killed her children and committed suicide in a custody dispute, for example, (“If I can’t have them no one will”), that’s a selfish and horrible act.

And then there is the religious viewpoint that no one has a right to end the life the Creator has given them. That happens to be what I personally believe. And yet, I have known of several who share my faith and have ended their own lives. They were good people struggling with their mental health. I wish I had known and could have offered help and comfort before their hopelessness took over their reasoning ability.

In my state, assisted suicide is legal. An elderly, terminally ill friend recently went through the complicated process and waiting period required. While it’s not a choice I could make and I don’t agree, I understand and have compassion for him and for his family who supported his decision.

I write all this because I credit and appreciate members who have shared their experience here with helping me to have more understanding and compassion for those who commit suicide, despite my personal beliefs.
JMO
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I appreciate your honesty but I will say that hypothetically, if you ever fell to the depths of despair felt by those who do either contemplate, attempt or actually commit suicide , your personal opinion and your beliefs, albeit part of your thinking and processing of the whole circumstances of the potential act, they would be overridden by the despair felt .
I sincerely hope that you never get to experience this pain and this is just MOO but it’s formed from many incidents of attempted and actual suicides and personal experience.
It is often something over which although a personal choice, actually it is far from it because of the irrational state of mind often reached by virtue of our brain and our emotional negative state derived from it, therefore almost taking the ‘choice’ out of it and it becoming an act in that present moment or moments of absolute necessity. (Albeit there are as you rightfully point out, some cases which do not fall into this for example the custody cases to which you refer of if I can’t have them, nobody else can ! And I’m not saying that about all custody cases as some undoubtedly get to the stage of ultimate despair and depression and deep rooted fear of what will become of their children. But I do not support this , I merely make reference to the fact that there are many circumstances and often, others trying to make sense of it all, will never comprehend it.)

All MOO
 
Angleterre said:
I appreciate your honesty but I will say that hypothetically, if you ever fell to the depths of despair felt by those who do either contemplate, attempt or actually commit suicide , your personal opinion and your beliefs, albeit part of your thinking and processing of the whole circumstances of the potential act, they would be overridden by the despair felt .
I sincerely hope that you never get to experience this pain and this is just MOO but it’s formed from many incidents of attempted and actual suicides and personal experience.
It is often something over which although a personal choice, actually it is far from it because of the irrational state of mind often reached by virtue of our brain and our emotional negative state derived from it, therefore almost taking the ‘choice’ out of it and it becoming an act in that present moment or moments of absolute necessity. (Albeit there are as you rightfully point out, some cases which do not fall into this for example the custody cases to which you refer of if I can’t have them, nobody else can ! And I’m not saying that about all custody cases as some undoubtedly get to the stage of ultimate despair and depression and deep rooted fear of what will become of their children. But I do not support this , I merely make reference to the fact that there are many circumstances and often, others trying to make sense of it all, will never comprehend it.)

All MOO
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I appreciate your sharing your point of view. However, perhaps I am misunderstanding your post. You seem a little offended by what I wrote, as if I said that I would never choose to commit suicide because of my beliefs. Is that what you think I implied? If so, I think you may have read something into my post that isn’t there. The only place I mentioned “choice” was in regard to legal assisted suicide, which, as I understand it, isn’t an option for someone who is deeply depressed. It’s a legally mandated solution someone who is terminally ill can choose, as my friend did.

You say:
I appreciate your honesty but I will say that hypothetically, if you ever fell to the depths of despair felt by those who do either contemplate, attempt or actually commit suicide , your personal opinion and your beliefs, albeit part of your thinking and processing of the whole circumstances of the potential act, they would be overridden by the despair felt .

I sincerely hope that you never get to experience this pain and this is just MOO but it’s formed from many incidents of attempted and actual suicides and personal experience.

It is often something over which although a personal choice, actually it is far from it because of the irrational state of mind often reached by virtue of our brain and our emotional negative state derived from it, therefore almost taking the ‘choice’ out of it and it becoming an act in that present moment or moments of absolute necessity.
BBM

We don’t disagree! I thought I made clear in a couple of posts that I do understand (intellectually) the depth of despair that overrides normal thinking and leads someone to commit suicide. I have personally struggled with depression, but not to that point, fortunately. Just because my personal beliefs don’t align with suicide doesn’t mean that I think I could never reach a point of desperation that might take me there, as has happened to the people I know who shared the same beliefs. I am realistic and humble enough to “never say never.”

The purpose of my posts has been to share what I have learned and help people understand that suicide often is far from a rational “choice,” in hopes they will have more compassion and less judgement. So I think we’re on the same page and thank you for your contribution. :) I’m sorry you missed my meaning in your interpretation of what I wrote.
 
Lilibet said:
I appreciate your sharing your point of view. However, perhaps I am misunderstanding your post. You seem a little offended by what I wrote, as if I said that I would never choose to commit suicide because of my beliefs. Is that what you think I implied? If so, I think you may have read something into my post that isn’t there. The only place I mentioned “choice” was in regard to legal assisted suicide, which, as I understand it, isn’t an option for someone who is deeply depressed. It’s a legally mandated solution someone who is terminally ill can choose, as my friend did.

You say:
I appreciate your honesty but I will say that hypothetically, if you ever fell to the depths of despair felt by those who do either contemplate, attempt or actually commit suicide , your personal opinion and your beliefs, albeit part of your thinking and processing of the whole circumstances of the potential act, they would be overridden by the despair felt .

I sincerely hope that you never get to experience this pain and this is just MOO but it’s formed from many incidents of attempted and actual suicides and personal experience.

It is often something over which although a personal choice, actually it is far from it because of the irrational state of mind often reached by virtue of our brain and our emotional negative state derived from it, therefore almost taking the ‘choice’ out of it and it becoming an act in that present moment or moments of absolute necessity.
BBM

We don’t disagree! I thought I made clear in a couple of posts that I do understand (intellectually) the depth of despair that overrides normal thinking and leads someone to commit suicide. I have personally struggled with depression, but not to that point, fortunately. Just because my personal beliefs don’t align with suicide doesn’t mean that I think I could never reach a point of desperation that might take me there, as has happened to the people I know who shared the same beliefs. I am realistic and humble enough to “never say never.”

The purpose of my posts has been to share what I have learned and help people understand that suicide often is far from a rational “choice,” in hopes they will have more compassion and less judgement. So I think we’re on the same page and thank you for your contribution. :) I’m sorry you missed my meaning in your interpretation of what I wrote.
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No no no sorry I am not offended at all and I thought that your post was searingly honest and well written. I did read that you understand that there are differing circumstances but it is not something that you would contemplate personally because of your beliefs and that is absolutely fine ( and I apologise if I interpreted it wrongly but I am not offended. Merely pointing out that sometimes we believe that we have a choice but that it gets taken away from us because of the depth of despair felt and the irrational thinking because of the way in which our brain is wired and the way it works and can trick us.
I have probably not written it as clearly or as properly as I should because I certainly wasn’t offended and I found your post balanced and searingly honest . My apologies if you thought otherwise x
 
Angleterre said:
No no no sorry I am not offended at all and I thought that your post was searingly honest and well written. I did read that you understand that there are differing circumstances but it is not something that you would contemplate personally because of your beliefs and that is absolutely fine ( and I apologise if I interpreted it wrongly but I am not offended. Merely pointing out that sometimes we believe that we have a choice but that it gets taken away from us because of the depth of despair felt and the irrational thinking because of the way in which our brain is wired and the way it works and can trick us.
I have probably not written it as clearly or as properly as I should because I certainly wasn’t offended and I found your post balanced and searingly honest . My apologies if you thought otherwise x
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Thanks so much for clarifying, @Angleterre. It’s such an emotionally “loaded” subject that writing about it clearly is difficult (for both of us). I was afraid you thought that I was assuming that my beliefs would make me immune to the depth of despair and irrational thoughts that lead to suicide. And that rather smug attitude would be understandably offensive, so I wanted to clarify. I absolutely agree with you that mental health issues can remove us from choices we would normally make. I’m glad we got that cleared up. :)
 
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