BeginnerSleuther
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There are those who think all killers are psychotic to some degree.
Snipped for focus.
For the record, those people would be wrong.
There are those who think all killers are psychotic to some degree.
I think this is why I’ve been taking such a hard-line against LC. It’s not because I don’t empathize with her; it’s because I do empathize with her, and the “I have a right to take my children’s lives” mindset is one I’m unfortunately familiar with.Someone spoke to this earlier and I think it’s important to me too- in the US, children have rights. Your five year old (example) has a right to live. You don’t have the right to kill a child just because he or she is yours. A defense of LC has to be measured against that. Doesn’t mean she can’t be found NGRI or that treatment isn’t the more appropriate option or that she doesn’t deserve compassion- but her children lost their lives because she took them. That matters to me.
<modsnip: quoted post snipped> I don’t know if Lindsey was “OK with killing” them, and God, I hope not, but it seems she was powerless of the inclination to do so regardless.I think this is why I’ve been taking such a hard-line against LC. It’s not because I don’t empathize with her; it’s because I do empathize with her, and the “I have a right to take my children’s lives” mindset is one I’m unfortunately familiar with.
<modsnip: personalizing>
Sadly, this one statement pretty much says it allTRANSCRIPTION OF PRESS CONFERENCE WITH DEFENSE ATTORNEY
8TH. FEB
Reporter - Were you pleased with the outcome of the probation decision in terms of allowing your client to keep on getting treatment?
Defense Attorney - I think we were most fortunate in getting one of the most compassionate, strong, judge's in the state of Massachusetts. He did the right thing and he has no compunctions whatsoever and to the very rational, organised order and I'm very grateful for that because she really needs that treatment.
Reporter - When the facts were laid out by the District Attorney - Can you speak about how that was presented?, because the way it was presented, the DA was minimising the mental health aspect and made it sound over and over again like this was premeditated, that there was clear thought, that she planned this by calling these different places and going on Apple map. Can you speak to that?
Defense Attorney - Yeah, I mean, she's a DA. She wants to put the case in the light most favourable to the Commonwealth and whatever inferences she can draw. I think it shows a lack of understanding or appreciation of the serious nature of postpartum psychosis, postpartum depression and the SSRI's suggesting that 'Oh she was able to communicate with her mom and send her a text and hope you had a nice ride' minimises or shows that she was not in the throws of suicidal ideation or god forbid homicidal ideation, or depression, unable to sleep, insomnia which was a complaint brought many times to the doctor's attention so I certainly don't fault the DA for presenting her case like that. I'm glad the judge was able to understand what the real issues are.
Reporter - So she was able to function and make those phone calls and make that (inaudible) - You're saying that doesn't mean that she wasn't suffering?
Defense Attorney - Of course, she would not lose... you don't lose the ability to understand that this is a cell phone and I'm going to shake hands with this person or I'm going to get in a car and drive. I mean, it's not like you're in a total stupor, you know?
Reporter - What is her diagnosis?
Defense Attorney - As far as her medical condition?
Reporter - Her mental health and her physical condition?
Defense Attorney - It's still being evaluated, that's Dr. Paul Zeizel, who is a forensic psychologist. He's been with her for the past three days, so that's still being investigated.
Reporter - Can you describe her condition right now?
Defense Attorney - Very sad affect, she can't move, as you heard in the courtroom. She's confined to the bed. She has to have 24/7 care, for obvious reasons. She has no feeling from the naval down and emotionally there's a very significant risk of suicide. They have to have a person sit in the room, as you heard and watch her 24/7, so it's not good.
Reporter - Do you have a hope that a plea agreement could be reached? Would that be the best way to dispose of this case?
Defense Attorney - I certainly do, I'm hoping that Tim Cruz, who's a former defence attorney and DA for a long time, would be able to understand that this is just a tragic case that really should be resolved without the fanfare of a trial and the emotion.
Reporter - What would be a fair plea?
Defense Attorney - That would be a matter of negotiation.
Reporter - Prosecution was talking about the medical history, that some had said she did not have postpartum depression, that she had no symptoms....
Defense Attorney - I gotta say, she saw one doctor and there was an evaluation, I don't know for how long, I don't know for how in depth, I don't know what the facts were as far as that. And at that point, the DA said that the doctor said that it did not appear to be postpartum depression, even though she may have been posting on Facebook, about a month or so prior to this indicating that she felt that she was anxious and depressed because of postpartum.
Reporter - What was her diagnosis at the clinic? What were they treating her for?
Defense Attorney - I'm getting the records and that's, you know, under investigation.
Reporter - What liability do doctors and pharmaceutical companies have in this case?
Defense Attorney - There's three dead children right now and a young woman, who was a beautiful woman who's confined to her bed and a husband who's a walking shell of a human being. And I really don't want to talk about money losses at this point.
Reporter - How many medications was she taking at the time?
Defense Attorney - Around 12, but they were 4 at a time, they would stop, get her off it, get on the sertraline antidepressant. They put her on the Prozac and then take her off the prozac and put her on the amitriptyline. That's what was happening.
Reporter - Does Dr. Zeizel want to say something about his impressions of Lindsay?
Dr. Zeizel - I've been meeting with Mrs. Clancy for the past few days and multiple hours each day. What I can say, without going too far, is that her affect is absolutely flattened, She's in a very surreal state. It feels dreamlike to her, as she's described to me on multiple occasions. And individuals who can present as being lucid and linear and clear thinking do not make those people not mentally ill. They have the capacity for, on occasion, to be able to do things that they've been doing for a long period of time. When you have delusional thinking. fixed beliefs that are unchangeable and hallucinations, namely command hallucinations, telling you to do things, telling you to do things that are malevolent and you believe those voices that are telling you, you need to follow what they say that's when things go downhill, behaviourally, psychiatrically and familiarly and that's what we see in the most tragic of cases where individuals who could be healthy and normal and, quite frankly, because they're paranoid and worried about what others think, they hold back on what they share. And in some cases throughout the country in the world, these are people who one day will be functioning well, but because they have the onset of command hallucinations, which they adhere to, and they believe the voice that they have to do something, that's when tragedy occurs, and I think that, sort of, is under the override rule break that this case falls under.
Likewise, I feel the same.Can I just say, as awful as the topic we’re discussing is, you guys and the way you’ve discussed this have given me a lot of faith in our humanity. And y’all who have struggled with mental illness too or been close to someone who has and opened up about it, have made me feel so much less alone and I thank you. None of us is alone. There are people who care. That’s a light in an often dark place. Don’t go to Reddit lol
There are actually 'switches' on certain genes and they can 'switch' because of enviromental. pathological and strees sitiations and cause certain things to change.Yeah, IANAD, but that's what I caveated what I said with people not needing to have a prior diagnosis or behaviour indicating a mental health condition before being pregnant. There's obviously some kind of switch we don't fully understand yet that gets flicked by pregnancy, probably chemical, in people who have a predisposition to psychosis. I imagine there are studies being done around PPP, mapping family mental health conditions, like they're doing for folks with schizophrenia.
MOO
I think it might be just a statistical way to say it's more likely to happen to first-time mothers.My admittedly nonprofessional understanding of the relationship between onset of Bipolar I and postpartum psychosis is that it’s only associated with primiparity, or first pregnancy/childbirth. But maybe I’m misreading these studies:
Mood disorders and parity – A clue to the aetiology of the postpartum trigger
From this study: “The results of our study indicate that in women with BD-I, episodes of postpartum psychosis are associated with first pregnancies.”
Birth order and postpartum psychiatric disorders
From this study: “The highest risk was found in primiparous mothers 10-19 days postpartum [relative risk (RR) = 8.65; 95% confidence interval (CI): 6.89-10.85]. After the second birth, the highest risk was at 60-89 days postpartum (RR = 2.01; 95% CI: 1.52-2.65), and there was no increased risk after the third birth.”
Callan was LC’s third child, so these studies seem to indicate her case wouldn’t be one of first onset of Bipolar Disorder I and associated psychosis. But again, maybe I’m reading them incorrectly or missing something.
"I do not know a better mother than Lindsay Clancy. She lived and breathed for her children," said nurse Erika Sevieri.
"I could have been Lindsay. Anyone of us could have been," nurse Susan Davison wrote.
"We are all in shock," said nurse Mary Pomerleau.
From vouching for her character to slamming her list of medications, telling their own stories of postpartum struggles and putting forth alternative theories, dozens of letters from friends and strangers in support of Lindsay Clancy were unsealed in court this week.
The letters requested by The Patriot Ledger, all sent to her defense attorney Kevin Reddington, come from as far away as the United Kingdom and all have a single thing in common: They say Lindsay Clancy cannot be held responsible for the death of her three children in Duxbury.
Several doctors and strangers with medical experience wrote to Reddington to suggest Lindsay was suffering from akathisia, a term used to describe the extreme effects of certain antipsychotic and antidepressant drugs. Others said the list of drugs she was taking − which included Prozac, Zoloft, trazodone, Valium and Klonopin − should have never been prescribed.
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Unsealed court documents reveal dozens of letters in support of Lindsay Clancy
Dozens of letters from friends and strangers in support of Lindsay Clancy were unsealed in court this week.www.patriotledger.com
Akathisia?
Replying to my own post as I tried to edit but whilst editing I ran over time.There are actually 'switches' on certain genes and they can 'switch' because of enviromental. pathological and strees sitiations and cause certain things to change.
It's called Epigenetics.
Epigenetic mechanisms are molecular events that govern the way the environment regulates the genomes of organisms. Epigenetic processes lead to individual differences in appearance, physiology, cognition, and behavior—the group of traits known as the phenotype.
Behavioral Epigenetics: How Nurture Shapes Nature
The topic of akathisia, and also tardive dyskinesia, came up during the Julie Schenecker trial. She was the Tampa mother who murdered her teenage kids.![]()
Akathisia: What It Is, Symptoms, Causes & Treatment
Akathisia is an inability to remain physically still. It’s a movement disorder that’s linked to certain types of medications, especially antipsychotic medications.my.clevelandclinic.org
Inner restlessness often causes extreme anxiety and distress in people with akathisia. Chronic cases of akathisia have been associated with a high risk of self-harm or suicidal behavior.
There are more in depth articles as well, but they don't say that the condition causes someone to kill another person ?
M00.
Tardive dyskinesia's primarily a chemical-induced movement disorder, right? Jaw clenching, twitching, hands shaking, abnormal gait? It's uncomfortable, but not anything that alters your reality.The topic of akathisia, and also tardive dyskinesia, came up during the Julie Schenecker trial. She was the Tampa mother who murdered her teenage kids.
GABE CRENSHAW, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I wanted -- I sort of disagree with what I heard, I think, Areva Martin say. It really is -- this insanity plea, no. Side effects of neuroleptic drugs that she`s on -- akathisia, tardive dyskinesia -- none of those will cause to you kill someone.
Yes. I had never heard of it prior to the Schenecker trial, which I closely followed. She had spent the last eight weeks in bed, she told the detectives. She was taking lithium and as many as 10 other medications. She pled guilty due to insanity, but was convicted. It’s an interesting case to check out, though not about possible PPP or PPD, provides insight where a murder case focused on the suspect’s pharma medications and results.Tardive dyskinesia's primarily a chemical-induced movement disorder, right? Jaw clenching, twitching, hands shaking, abnormal gait? It's uncomfortable, but not anything that alters your reality.
(My brother has a dyskinesia - PKD - but it's organic, not chemical induced. He takes low level seizure meds to control it, has done since he was a teen.)
I understand your opinion, and I disagree with some, but I just wanted to mention that I doubt LC, or her family are able to give any coherent explanations for anything at the moment. They are all going through so much right now.I have suffered from PPA, I have had dark thoughts about my children and about myself as a mother, but wow, I would have never been able to end my children’s lives or watch them die. Based on the facts as I understand them, she is a child murderer. And I have yet to hear any coherent explanation from LC, her family, or her attorney that would explain or demonstrate to me she is not.
I am not a physician by any means, but to me, it would suggest Schizophrenia.This study appears to conclude that anxiety does cause psychosis in patients who have no comorbid psychotic disorders.
Evidence That Psychotic Symptoms Are Prevalent in Disorders of Anxiety and Depression, Impacting on Illness Onset, Risk, and Severity
From the study:
“BACKGROUND: It is commonly assumed that there are clear lines of demarcation between anxiety and depressive disorders on the one hand and psychosis on the other. Recent evidence, however, suggests that this principle may be in need of updating.”
“CONCLUSION: Copresence of psychotic symptomatology in disorders of anxiety and depression is common and a functionally and etiologically highly relevant feature, reinforcing the view that psychopathology is represented by a network of overlapping and reciprocally impacting dimensional liabilities.”
BBM
I guess my question to you as a physician is, what does a diagnosis of “Anxiety Disorder with Psychotic Features” mean?