MA - Lindsay Clancy, Strangled 3 Children in Murder/Suicide Attempt, Duxbury, Jan 2023

[BeginnerSleuther]

There are those who think all killers are psychotic to some degree.

Snipped for focus.

For the record, those people would be wrong.

 

[SpideySense]

Someone spoke to this earlier and I think it’s important to me too- in the US, children have rights. Your five year old (example) has a right to live. You don’t have the right to kill a child just because he or she is yours. A defense of LC has to be measured against that. Doesn’t mean she can’t be found NGRI or that treatment isn’t the more appropriate option or that she doesn’t deserve compassion- but her children lost their lives because she took them. That matters to me.

I think this is why I’ve been taking such a hard-line against LC. It’s not because I don’t empathize with her; it’s because I do empathize with her, and the “I have a right to take my children’s lives” mindset is one I’m unfortunately familiar with.

<modsnip: personalizing>

 

[Bostongirl]

I think this is why I’ve been taking such a hard-line against LC. It’s not because I don’t empathize with her; it’s because I do empathize with her, and the “I have a right to take my children’s lives” mindset is one I’m unfortunately familiar with.

<modsnip: personalizing>

<modsnip: quoted post snipped> I don’t know if Lindsey was “OK with killing” them, and God, I hope not, but it seems she was powerless of the inclination to do so regardless.

I have to hope that the children were caught off guard enough to not understand that their mother was hurting them. I know it’s wishful thinking especially for the oldest.

I hope that they were not scared, and it makes me so sad to think so.

MOO

 

[spicyrock]

Looking over the timeline again. Some things I missed that I wanted to point out. First, we’re getting the info on her mood that day from the dad. Dads are often oblivious to the moods of struggling moms.

His office was in the basement. I remember reading early on that the baby was found in the office which confused me.

She’d been dealing with two kids and presumably a baby all day. Pediatrician appointment, playing in the snow, texting him while he worked in the office.

And she was expecting to take care of dinner, based on her text to him.

Are we sure she was in a smiling happy great mood?

Timeline of Duxbury killings: Prosecutor lays out case against Lindsay Clancy

Plymouth officials presented investigators' timeline of events at Lindsay Clancy's arraignment on Tuesday.

www.masslive.com

 

[steeltowngirl]

TRANSCRIPTION OF PRESS CONFERENCE WITH DEFENSE ATTORNEY

8TH. FEB

Reporter - Were you pleased with the outcome of the probation decision in terms of allowing your client to keep on getting treatment?

Defense Attorney - I think we were most fortunate in getting one of the most compassionate, strong, judge's in the state of Massachusetts. He did the right thing and he has no compunctions whatsoever and to the very rational, organised order and I'm very grateful for that because she really needs that treatment.

Reporter - When the facts were laid out by the District Attorney - Can you speak about how that was presented?, because the way it was presented, the DA was minimising the mental health aspect and made it sound over and over again like this was premeditated, that there was clear thought, that she planned this by calling these different places and going on Apple map. Can you speak to that?

Defense Attorney - Yeah, I mean, she's a DA. She wants to put the case in the light most favourable to the Commonwealth and whatever inferences she can draw. I think it shows a lack of understanding or appreciation of the serious nature of postpartum psychosis, postpartum depression and the SSRI's suggesting that 'Oh she was able to communicate with her mom and send her a text and hope you had a nice ride' minimises or shows that she was not in the throws of suicidal ideation or god forbid homicidal ideation, or depression, unable to sleep, insomnia which was a complaint brought many times to the doctor's attention so I certainly don't fault the DA for presenting her case like that. I'm glad the judge was able to understand what the real issues are.

Reporter - So she was able to function and make those phone calls and make that (inaudible) - You're saying that doesn't mean that she wasn't suffering?

Defense Attorney - Of course, she would not lose... you don't lose the ability to understand that this is a cell phone and I'm going to shake hands with this person or I'm going to get in a car and drive. I mean, it's not like you're in a total stupor, you know?

Reporter - What is her diagnosis?

Defense Attorney - As far as her medical condition?

Reporter - Her mental health and her physical condition?

Defense Attorney - It's still being evaluated, that's Dr. Paul Zeizel, who is a forensic psychologist. He's been with her for the past three days, so that's still being investigated.

Reporter - Can you describe her condition right now?

Defense Attorney - Very sad affect, she can't move, as you heard in the courtroom. She's confined to the bed. She has to have 24/7 care, for obvious reasons. She has no feeling from the naval down and emotionally there's a very significant risk of suicide. They have to have a person sit in the room, as you heard and watch her 24/7, so it's not good.

Reporter - Do you have a hope that a plea agreement could be reached? Would that be the best way to dispose of this case?

Defense Attorney - I certainly do, I'm hoping that Tim Cruz, who's a former defence attorney and DA for a long time, would be able to understand that this is just a tragic case that really should be resolved without the fanfare of a trial and the emotion.

Reporter - What would be a fair plea?

Defense Attorney - That would be a matter of negotiation.

Reporter - Prosecution was talking about the medical history, that some had said she did not have postpartum depression, that she had no symptoms....

Defense Attorney - I gotta say, she saw one doctor and there was an evaluation, I don't know for how long, I don't know for how in depth, I don't know what the facts were as far as that. And at that point, the DA said that the doctor said that it did not appear to be postpartum depression, even though she may have been posting on Facebook, about a month or so prior to this indicating that she felt that she was anxious and depressed because of postpartum.

Reporter - What was her diagnosis at the clinic? What were they treating her for?

Defense Attorney - I'm getting the records and that's, you know, under investigation.

Reporter - What liability do doctors and pharmaceutical companies have in this case?

Defense Attorney - There's three dead children right now and a young woman, who was a beautiful woman who's confined to her bed and a husband who's a walking shell of a human being. And I really don't want to talk about money losses at this point.

Reporter - How many medications was she taking at the time?

Defense Attorney - Around 12, but they were 4 at a time, they would stop, get her off it, get on the sertraline antidepressant. They put her on the Prozac and then take her off the prozac and put her on the amitriptyline. That's what was happening.

Reporter - Does Dr. Zeizel want to say something about his impressions of Lindsay?

Dr. Zeizel - I've been meeting with Mrs. Clancy for the past few days and multiple hours each day. What I can say, without going too far, is that her affect is absolutely flattened, She's in a very surreal state. It feels dreamlike to her, as she's described to me on multiple occasions. And individuals who can present as being lucid and linear and clear thinking do not make those people not mentally ill. They have the capacity for, on occasion, to be able to do things that they've been doing for a long period of time. When you have delusional thinking. fixed beliefs that are unchangeable and hallucinations, namely command hallucinations, telling you to do things, telling you to do things that are malevolent and you believe those voices that are telling you, you need to follow what they say that's when things go downhill, behaviourally, psychiatrically and familiarly and that's what we see in the most tragic of cases where individuals who could be healthy and normal and, quite frankly, because they're paranoid and worried about what others think, they hold back on what they share. And in some cases throughout the country in the world, these are people who one day will be functioning well, but because they have the onset of command hallucinations, which they adhere to, and they believe the voice that they have to do something, that's when tragedy occurs, and I think that, sort of, is under the override rule break that this case falls under.

Sadly, this one statement pretty much says it all

Defense Attorney - There's three dead children right now and a young woman, who was a beautiful woman who's confined to her bed and a husband who's a walking shell of a human being. And I really don't want to talk about money losses at this point.

 

[Jinkasaurus]

I was listening to a podcast today about a case where a grandfather killed his daughter, his six grand-children, and then himself. In it, the podcaster featured some research by a preeminent scholar on the topic of child murder, Phillip J. Resnick, MD. He published the first major study of this in 1969.

Here are some publications that he has co-authored. They might be interesting to people on this thread.

Child Murder and Mental Illness in Parents: Implications for Psychiatrists

Parents Who Kill: Clinical and Legal Perspectives

Psychiatrists should not be afraid to assess parenting issues and other stressors when treating depressed or psychotic parents of young children.

www.psychiatrictimes.com

Mothers Thinking of Murder: Considerations for Prevention

While many parents fear that strangers might kill their children, a parent is actually more likely to be the perpetrator. This column focuses on preventing the tragedy of maternal filicide.

www.psychiatrictimes.com

Child murder committed by severely mentally III mothers: an examination of mothers found not guilty by reason of insanity. 2005 Honorable Mention/Richard Rosner Award for the best paper by a fellow in forensic psychiatry or forensic psychology - PubM

Forensic hospital records of 39 severely mentally ill mothers adjudicated Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity for filicide (child murder by parents) were analyzed to describe characteristics preceding this tragedy and to suggest prevention strategies. Almost three-quarters of the mothers (72%) had...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is an article about a different case, but features many quotes from Dr. Resnick about maternal filicide. Parents who kill their kids not always insane, expert says

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Can I just say, as awful as the topic we’re discussing is, you guys and the way you’ve discussed this have given me a lot of faith in our humanity. And y’all who have struggled with mental illness too or been close to someone who has and opened up about it, have made me feel so much less alone and I thank you. None of us is alone. There are people who care. That’s a light in an often dark place. Don’t go to Reddit lol

Likewise, I feel the same.
I don't tend to shy away from expressing my own opinions, in fact I am probably too candid.
I was starting to notice that some people were not quite understanding the mental health aspect of this case and so in my case, I just wanted to acknowledge that for people who don't understand mental health from a personal POV, this case should be cut and dry and I wanted to help them see the perspective from a mental health side of things.
Everyone who has opened up here has been extremely brave, and I know it has helped others who have no experience with MH.
(Plus agreed with the Reddit comment and ill raise you FB)

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

DBM - I was wrong; clinical psychologists can only prescribe meds in certain states.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Yeah, IANAD, but that's what I caveated what I said with people not needing to have a prior diagnosis or behaviour indicating a mental health condition before being pregnant. There's obviously some kind of switch we don't fully understand yet that gets flicked by pregnancy, probably chemical, in people who have a predisposition to psychosis. I imagine there are studies being done around PPP, mapping family mental health conditions, like they're doing for folks with schizophrenia.

MOO

There are actually 'switches' on certain genes and they can 'switch' because of enviromental. pathological and strees sitiations and cause certain things to change.
It's called Epigenetics.

Epigenetic mechanisms are molecular events that govern the way the environment regulates the genomes of organisms. Epigenetic processes lead to individual differences in appearance, physiology, cognition, and behavior—the group of traits known as the phenotype.
Behavioral Epigenetics: How Nurture Shapes Nature

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

My admittedly nonprofessional understanding of the relationship between onset of Bipolar I and postpartum psychosis is that it’s only associated with primiparity, or first pregnancy/childbirth. But maybe I’m misreading these studies:

Mood disorders and parity – A clue to the aetiology of the postpartum trigger
From this study: “The results of our study indicate that in women with BD-I, episodes of postpartum psychosis are associated with first pregnancies.”

Birth order and postpartum psychiatric disorders
From this study: “The highest risk was found in primiparous mothers 10-19 days postpartum [relative risk (RR) = 8.65; 95% confidence interval (CI): 6.89-10.85]. After the second birth, the highest risk was at 60-89 days postpartum (RR = 2.01; 95% CI: 1.52-2.65), and there was no increased risk after the third birth.”

Callan was LC’s third child, so these studies seem to indicate her case wouldn’t be one of first onset of Bipolar Disorder I and associated psychosis. But again, maybe I’m reading them incorrectly or missing something.

I think it might be just a statistical way to say it's more likely to happen to first-time mothers.
Pre-eclampsia is the same, yet I had pre-eclampsia with my fourth and fifth pregnancies but not with my first three.
I had so many doctors ask me if it was my first, look surprised when I said third, then ask if it was my first with a new partner, then look even more surprised when I said no.
So I think there is an association with the first pregnancy, but that does not mean it won't happen in subsequent ones.
JMO

 

[Erutan]

Going forward, hoping that the doctors and/or psychiatrists/psychologists who may have prescribed meds to LC will not be wholly blamed for the murders.
They may not have communicated with each other as well as they should have -- if more than one doctor was prescribing LC's doses, but with their medical background one would assume they did not deliberately prescribe in a careless or callous manner (as in, let's try this since the other meds weren't working , etc.) ??
People aren't guinea pigs to their doctors, and an ethical establishment will change or lower doses as needed !

Even one med that accidentally turns out to be disastrous for the patient ; can mess with a person, if their body and mind do not react in the manner that the medication's supposed results ?
If a patient is given a med to calm their paranoia, then the person should effectively be more at peace and able to cope, correct ?
How many warning signs were there before, and did the doctors take note that one or more of the meds weren't effective and adjust LC's meds ?
Imo.

 

[Knox]

"I do not know a better mother than Lindsay Clancy. She lived and breathed for her children," said nurse Erika Sevieri.

"I could have been Lindsay. Anyone of us could have been," nurse Susan Davison wrote.

"We are all in shock," said nurse Mary Pomerleau.

From vouching for her character to slamming her list of medications, telling their own stories of postpartum struggles and putting forth alternative theories, dozens of letters from friends and strangers in support of Lindsay Clancy were unsealed in court this week.

The letters requested by The Patriot Ledger, all sent to her defense attorney Kevin Reddington, come from as far away as the United Kingdom and all have a single thing in common: They say Lindsay Clancy cannot be held responsible for the death of her three children in Duxbury.

Several doctors and strangers with medical experience wrote to Reddington to suggest Lindsay was suffering from akathisia, a term used to describe the extreme effects of certain antipsychotic and antidepressant drugs. Others said the list of drugs she was taking − which included Prozac, Zoloft, trazodone, Valium and Klonopin − should have never been prescribed.

Unsealed court documents reveal dozens of letters in support of Lindsay Clancy

Dozens of letters from friends and strangers in support of Lindsay Clancy were unsealed in court this week.

www.patriotledger.com

Akathisia?

 

[Erutan]

"I do not know a better mother than Lindsay Clancy. She lived and breathed for her children," said nurse Erika Sevieri.

"I could have been Lindsay. Anyone of us could have been," nurse Susan Davison wrote.

"We are all in shock," said nurse Mary Pomerleau.

From vouching for her character to slamming her list of medications, telling their own stories of postpartum struggles and putting forth alternative theories, dozens of letters from friends and strangers in support of Lindsay Clancy were unsealed in court this week.

The letters requested by The Patriot Ledger, all sent to her defense attorney Kevin Reddington, come from as far away as the United Kingdom and all have a single thing in common: They say Lindsay Clancy cannot be held responsible for the death of her three children in Duxbury.

Several doctors and strangers with medical experience wrote to Reddington to suggest Lindsay was suffering from akathisia, a term used to describe the extreme effects of certain antipsychotic and antidepressant drugs. Others said the list of drugs she was taking − which included Prozac, Zoloft, trazodone, Valium and Klonopin − should have never been prescribed.

Unsealed court documents reveal dozens of letters in support of Lindsay Clancy

Dozens of letters from friends and strangers in support of Lindsay Clancy were unsealed in court this week.

www.patriotledger.com

Akathisia?

Akathisia: What It Is, Symptoms, Causes & Treatment

Akathisia is an inability to remain physically still. It’s a movement disorder that’s linked to certain types of medications, especially antipsychotic medications.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Inner restlessness often causes extreme anxiety and distress in people with akathisia. Chronic cases of akathisia have been associated with a high risk of self-harm or suicidal behavior.

There are more in depth articles as well, but they don't say that the condition causes someone to kill another person ?
M00.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

There are actually 'switches' on certain genes and they can 'switch' because of enviromental. pathological and strees sitiations and cause certain things to change.
It's called Epigenetics.

Epigenetic mechanisms are molecular events that govern the way the environment regulates the genomes of organisms. Epigenetic processes lead to individual differences in appearance, physiology, cognition, and behavior—the group of traits known as the phenotype.
Behavioral Epigenetics: How Nurture Shapes Nature

Replying to my own post as I tried to edit but whilst editing I ran over time.

There are actual 'switches' on certain genes. They can be 'switched' due to environmental, pathological, and stressful situations and can cause certain traits, behaviors, learning/thinking, and body mechanisms to change. They are reversible.


What is Epigenetics? Your genes play an important role in your health, but so do your behaviors and environment, such as what you eat and how physically active you are. Epigenetics is the study of how your behaviors and environment can cause changes that affect the way your genes work.
What is Epigenetics? CDC
For example, an Indigenous person living in the Andes at a high altitude will develop certain unique traits as they grow up. Their chests develop larger, more barrel-shaped so they can breathe easier in high altitudes. (There is also a very cool story about inherited epigenetics, but without pulling out a PowerPoint, that is a post for another day).
If an outsider, like you or me, went to the high-altitude village they live in, we would have a miserable time to start, but our bodies would eventually acclimatize; the acclimatization is the effect of epigenetic marks, or 'Switches'.
The switches get activated in certain circumstances, and it causes your genes to make different proteins and basically, stuff gets changed. In high altitudes, our bodies respond to environmental stressors, and the switches do their dance and our bodies adapt to breathing easier.
Once we leave and are living back in a lower altitude, our bodies reverse back.

Epigenetic mechanisms are molecular events that govern the way the environment regulates the genomes of organisms. Epigenetic processes lead to individual differences in appearance, physiology, cognition, and behavior—the group of traits known as the phenotype.
Behavioral Epigenetics: How Nurture Shapes Nature

ETA:
I rushed my original post because I am excited to share an interest and did not take the time to explain better.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Akathisia: What It Is, Symptoms, Causes & Treatment

Akathisia is an inability to remain physically still. It’s a movement disorder that’s linked to certain types of medications, especially antipsychotic medications.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Inner restlessness often causes extreme anxiety and distress in people with akathisia. Chronic cases of akathisia have been associated with a high risk of self-harm or suicidal behavior.

There are more in depth articles as well, but they don't say that the condition causes someone to kill another person ?
M00.

The topic of akathisia, and also tardive dyskinesia, came up during the Julie Schenecker trial. She was the Tampa mother who murdered her teenage kids.

GABE CRENSHAW, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I wanted -- I sort of disagree with what I heard, I think, Areva Martin say. It really is -- this insanity plea, no. Side effects of neuroleptic drugs that she`s on -- akathisia, tardive dyskinesia -- none of those will cause to you kill someone.

CNN.com - Transcripts

 

[iamshadow21]

The topic of akathisia, and also tardive dyskinesia, came up during the Julie Schenecker trial. She was the Tampa mother who murdered her teenage kids.

GABE CRENSHAW, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I wanted -- I sort of disagree with what I heard, I think, Areva Martin say. It really is -- this insanity plea, no. Side effects of neuroleptic drugs that she`s on -- akathisia, tardive dyskinesia -- none of those will cause to you kill someone.

CNN.com - Transcripts

Tardive dyskinesia's primarily a chemical-induced movement disorder, right? Jaw clenching, twitching, hands shaking, abnormal gait? It's uncomfortable, but not anything that alters your reality.

(My brother has a dyskinesia - PKD - but it's organic, not chemical induced. He takes low level seizure meds to control it, has done since he was a teen.)

 

[steeltowngirl]

Tardive dyskinesia's primarily a chemical-induced movement disorder, right? Jaw clenching, twitching, hands shaking, abnormal gait? It's uncomfortable, but not anything that alters your reality.

(My brother has a dyskinesia - PKD - but it's organic, not chemical induced. He takes low level seizure meds to control it, has done since he was a teen.)

Yes. I had never heard of it prior to the Schenecker trial, which I closely followed. She had spent the last eight weeks in bed, she told the detectives. She was taking lithium and as many as 10 other medications. She pled guilty due to insanity, but was convicted. It’s an interesting case to check out, though not about possible PPP or PPD, provides insight where a murder case focused on the suspect’s pharma medications and results.

The court heard from Daniel Buffington, a pharmacologist who said he was tapped by Schenecker’s defense team to examine her before the trial. He said Schenecker showed symptoms of what’s known as tardive dyskinesia. It’s a condition characterized by involuntary and repetitive muscle movements. It is a side effect of certain medications, and if not immediately addressed it can become permanent, he said.

Julie Schenecker returns to Tampa court, 11 years after killing her children

A jury rejected the Tampa mother’s insanity defense in 2014. She now seeks a new trial.

www.tampabay.com

Listen: Julie Schenecker offered rambling statement to police

TAMPA

www.tampabay.com

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

I have suffered from PPA, I have had dark thoughts about my children and about myself as a mother, but wow, I would have never been able to end my children’s lives or watch them die. Based on the facts as I understand them, she is a child murderer. And I have yet to hear any coherent explanation from LC, her family, or her attorney that would explain or demonstrate to me she is not.

I understand your opinion, and I disagree with some, but I just wanted to mention that I doubt LC, or her family are able to give any coherent explanations for anything at the moment. They are all going through so much right now.
AFAIK, there was much speculation over Andrea Yates's initial insanity plea because when she appeared in court, she looked and sounded sane, but the fact was, she had been treated and was responding well to it. Her demeanor wasn't a true representation of how she was at the time of the killings.
I feel this is why the psychologist is with her, to document her mental state NOW, not when she is hopefully stable.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

This study appears to conclude that anxiety does cause psychosis in patients who have no comorbid psychotic disorders.

Evidence That Psychotic Symptoms Are Prevalent in Disorders of Anxiety and Depression, Impacting on Illness Onset, Risk, and Severity

From the study:

“BACKGROUND: It is commonly assumed that there are clear lines of demarcation between anxiety and depressive disorders on the one hand and psychosis on the other. Recent evidence, however, suggests that this principle may be in need of updating.”

“CONCLUSION: Copresence of psychotic symptomatology in disorders of anxiety and depression is common and a functionally and etiologically highly relevant feature, reinforcing the view that psychopathology is represented by a network of overlapping and reciprocally impacting dimensional liabilities.”

BBM

I guess my question to you as a physician is, what does a diagnosis of “Anxiety Disorder with Psychotic Features” mean?

I am not a physician by any means, but to me, it would suggest Schizophrenia.
(if you were being rhetorical, I apologise my ADHD meds have worn off)

 

[SpideySense]

I’m thinking about a possible trigger for her that day, and the pediatrician appointment is coming more into focus.

One of her children was apparently experiencing constipation that required treatment with Miralax. Functional constipation in children has been shown to be associated with maternal neuroticism, overprotective parenting, and maternal hostility, rejection, and authoritarianism.

Parental characteristics and functional constipation in children: a cross-sectional cohort study

“Mothers of constipated children had significant higher scores on the neuroticism personality factor and reported higher rates of overall psychological distress and depression.”

Clinical, psychological and maternal characteristics in early functional constipation

“The mothers of the patient group had higher levels of psychological distress, overprotective parenting and strict discipline.”

Clinical findings, child and mother psychosocial status in functional constipation

“Emotional and peer problems subscale scores, parental concerns as well as over-parenting attitude were found higher in patients. Significant difference was also observed between the groups in terms of mean score of authoritarian attitude dimensions. Attitude of hostility and rejection and marital discordance was found to be significantly high in patient families.”

I’m wondering if LC received information or counseling that morning from the pediatrician suggesting her child’s constipation was psychological, a show of resistance against possibly rigid, anxious, or perfectionist parenting. She might have taken that as an overwhelming indictment of her as a mother, or as confirmation that her children were “against her” and would oppose her to the point of making themselves ill. That may have been the trigger that finally caused her to snap.