MA MA - Molly Bish, 16, Warren, 27 Jun 2000

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Thats the old "gut response" thing that is actually a protective instinct, in terms of a protective feeling its unmatched, theres a few outstanding books on it actually, I teach that as part of a class I teach on self protection.

It has to be in the right context though, context always trumps content

You may be right, it could absolutely have been someone she was familiar with, that had issues in his past, he knew she would be there, knew there was a place to get her out of there ...

I tend to disagree (respectfully)

I feel it was a stranger , I feel he was no stranger to the law though, though this type would certainly have impulse issues, but this was planned at least somewhat, in that he knew there were sometimes young girls alone at Commins.

Hes almost certainly from the area, i feel something triggered him, before it happened, which most child killers don't usually need.

This individual would most likely have sexual issues, as well as anger issues , problems with impulsiveness in his past.

A police officer or impersonator also wouldnt be out of the realm of possibility .

I wrote what I wrote about a person's first thought to try to explain why I think the way I do in Molly Bish's case. I think you are absolutely correct. In this case, it is a phantom in the night. I would not be confident at all saying it was a specific person. You are correct in that there is nothing to suggest that it was someone she knew. Ironically I argue this very point about public places in the Delphi case. As I wrote in the Delphi case, public places are accessible by anyone, especially strangers. So it would stand to reason that Commins Pond would also fit too as a public place.

I think most of my comments about this case show that I am all over the place. Given enough time I could make an argument about anybody in Molly Bish's case.

I like to look at comments I wrote in cases that got solved to see what I was thinking. Because of the complete randomness in this case, this is the type of case where I would really like to know the solution to who abducted and murdered Molly Bish? But I guess sometimes the dragon wins.
 
I wrote what I wrote about a person's first thought to try to explain why I think the way I do in Molly Bish's case. I think you are absolutely correct. In this case, it is a phantom in the night. I would not be confident at all saying it was a specific person. You are correct in that there is nothing to suggest that it was someone she knew. Ironically I argue this very point about public places in the Delphi case. As I wrote in the Delphi case, public places are accessible by anyone, especially strangers. So it would stand to reason that Commins Pond would also fit too as a public place.

I think most of my comments about this case show that I am all over the place. Given enough time I could make an argument about anybody in Molly Bish's case.

I like to look at comments I wrote in cases that got solved to see what I was thinking. Because of the complete randomness in this case, this is the type of case where I would really like to know the solution to who abducted and murdered Molly Bish? But I guess sometimes the dragon wins.

Less and less anymore with advances in technology

On April 24, 2018 a 73 year old man was arrested for crimes he had committed in the 70's and 80's

Joseph DeAngelo had committed 13 murders, 5o rapes and over 120 burglaries. His last crime was 1986 , but technology and the genius of an experienced investigator , caught up with him

One thing science has taught us, it "Never say never, Never say always"

Remember this razor (rule of thumb): Of ALL the killer types, out there those who abduct and murder kids for sexual purposes, have the least variances, in their profiles.

Its so consistent its scary.

I came up with this a few years ago, though you may have someone who's CAPABLE, and they may even be CULPABLE (deserving of blame) , no matter what we must find who is RESPONSIBLE.

For ex is a pedophile capable ?-Yes

Is a pedophile culpable?- (IE should they be investigated?) absolutely if there are supporting factors

Are they responsible?- You have to have evidence otherwise you have nothing
 
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Early on. i was thi
Add a weapon (and possibly a badge ) I tend to agree
Early on i was thinking rapist. a convicted rapist whom did time for rape and was either on parole at the time, or had did his time completely and was no longer on parole.

Someone while out may had become good for lack of better word. I don't think he was stalking out on the prowl. But this became an opportunity for him. knowing perhaps she would be alone at times at her job. He gave in once again to his desire to rape

I don't see a serial killer finding his why there by chance and killing her. But a convicted rapist? perhaps knowing she worked there, seen her one day working there while he was already there, or came by later and seen her the first time and then made plans to eventual rape, and kill her.

This convicted rapist killed her so she could not report the crime. Something another one of his victims did and sent him to prison. I think it was premediated but not for just any victim but for Molly herself . The plans he made for Molly made it premediated.

Sometimes i find myself assuming she was killed the same day taken, that may not be true or maybe it is. But if she was killed that same day, i would say somewhere near where her remains were found. Better to kill her there, than to try and dump a corpse somewhere later on.

And i think the killer was living/staying say 25-50 miles in either direction from where she was found

THE ABOVE ALL MOO AND SPECULATION. NOTING BEING POSTED AS FACT. ALL ASSUMPTIONS AND SPECULATIONS
 
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Early on. i was thi

Early on i was thinking rapist. a convicted rapist whom did time for rape and was either on parole at the time, or had did his time completely and was no longer on parole.

Someone while out may had become good for lack of better word. I don't think he was stalking out on the prowl. But this became an opportunity for him. knowing perhaps she would be alone at times at her job. He gave in once again to his desire to rape

I don't see a serial killer finding his why there by chance and killing her. But a convicted rapist? perhaps knowing she worked there, seen her one day working there while he was already there, or came by later and seen her the first time and then made plans to eventual rape, and kill her.

This convicted rapist killed her so she could not report the crime. Something another one of his victims did and sent him to prison. I think it was premediated but not for just any victim but for Molly herself . The plans he made for Molly made it premediated.

Sometimes i find myself assuming she was killed the same day taken, that may not be true or maybe it is. But if she was killed that same day, i would say somewhere near where her remains were found. Better to kill her there, than to try and dump a corpse somewhere later on.

And i think the killer was living/staying say 25-50 miles in either direction from where she was found

THE ABOVE ALL MOO AND SPECULATION. NOTING BEING POSTED AS FACT. ALL ASSUMPTIONS AND SPECULATIONS


I agree with that 100%

If he didnt serve time for rape, he almost certainly attempted it in his past, my feeling is hes been to prison, for something. The victim was killed so he wouldn't go back.

When you see sex offenses, theres usually other lesser offenses leading up to it , this isn't someone who just snapped, this type of planning is something hes had on his mind for awhile.

One thing you see with certain types of rapists, is their rape fantasies carry over into their relationships, in other words, its not unheard of for them to reenact them with their partners.

Alone on its face that's not all that alarming, there are some strange fetishes out there, but if you add into that other factors, then you have someone worth looking at .

Most abducted victims are killed within 60 minutes, 3 hours is about the maximum, unless they are taken for sadistic purposes. Sadists need time to do what they do, and even then 24 hours, its about a 100% fatality rate.

There's also a really odd but extremely consistent factor we find in abduction murders (barring evidence to suggest otherwise) , the body is usually recovered within 200 feet of there they were killed. This confuses some people. The reason, (according to the killers themselves) is that once they get the victim somewhere they can rape them, a place they feel will be safe, its WAY to risky to try and move them or leave them alive. SO they are usually killed right where the sexual assault occurred, in some cases they may rape a victim then within a few minutes, decide to kill the victim, but they don't usually move them after the assault , its way too risky.

But theres exceptions to the spatial rule, For EX if the rape and kill the victim in a vehicle, they will usually only move the victim a short distance from the vehicle, though they vehicle may have been withing the 200 foot range, at one point, once the vehicle leaves, the distance is now inevitably greater then 200 feet.
 
I agree with that 100%

If he didnt serve time for rape, he almost certainly attempted it in his past, my feeling is hes been to prison, for something. The victim was killed so he wouldn't go back.

When you see sex offenses, theres usually other lesser offenses leading up to it , this isn't someone who just snapped, this type of planning is something hes had on his mind for awhile.

One thing you see with certain types of rapists, is their rape fantasies carry over into their relationships, in other words, its not unheard of for them to reenact them with their partners.

Alone on its face that's not all that alarming, there are some strange fetishes out there, but if you add into that other factors, then you have someone worth looking at .

Most abducted victims are killed within 60 minutes, 3 hours is about the maximum, unless they are taken for sadistic purposes. Sadists need time to do what they do, and even then 24 hours, its about a 100% fatality rate.

There's also a really odd but extremely consistent factor we find in abduction murders (barring evidence to suggest otherwise) , the body is usually recovered within 200 feet of there they were killed. This confuses some people. The reason, (according to the killers themselves) is that once they get the victim somewhere they can rape them, a place they feel will be safe, its WAY to risky to try and move them or leave them alive. SO they are usually killed right where the sexual assault occurred, in some cases they may rape a victim then within a few minutes, decide to kill the victim, but they don't usually move them after the assault , its way too risky.

But theres exceptions to the spatial rule, For EX if the rape and kill the victim in a vehicle, they will usually only move the victim a short distance from the vehicle, though they vehicle may have been withing the 200 foot range, at one point, once the vehicle leaves, the distance is now inevitably greater then 200 feet.

Interesting information. I agree that many times there is a pattern leading up to a crime like this, but until we can figure out what the pattern is or how it is linked this case is a mystery.

So you think most likely a stranger, possibly ex-con, who either knew the pond area or had visited and decided to abduct/murder the lifeguard, Molly Bish?

That is where I have a lot of problems. Even though I know Commins Pond is a public place certainly assessible to strangers, this case has always felt like it was someone who was there specifically for Molly Bish. But there is absolutely no evidence factually to support it. This feels like such a planned crime sometimes, tends to be my reasoning. It is my opinion.

It would be so nice if someday there was an actual FACTUAL description of the story, the items on the beach open or closed, etc. What did the witnesses that first arrived do or say, etc? We even have to remember the time period, 2000, was probably a lot different in terms of cell phones too.

There is no denying how long it has been and if it were someone known to the investigation they probably would have been caught already. But you never know.
 
Interesting information. I agree that many times there is a pattern leading up to a crime like this, but until we can figure out what the pattern is or how it is linked this case is a mystery.

So you think most likely a stranger, possibly ex-con, who either knew the pond area or had visited and decided to abduct/murder the lifeguard, Molly Bish?

That is where I have a lot of problems. Even though I know Commins Pond is a public place certainly assessible to strangers, this case has always felt like it was someone who was there specifically for Molly Bish. But there is absolutely no evidence factually to support it. This feels like such a planned crime sometimes, tends to be my reasoning. It is my opinion.

It would be so nice if someday there was an actual FACTUAL description of the story, the items on the beach open or closed, etc. What did the witnesses that first arrived do or say, etc? We even have to remember the time period, 2000, was probably a lot different in terms of cell phones too.

There is no denying how long it has been and if it were someone known to the investigation they probably would have been caught already. But you never know.

Despite a lot of common theories, violence doesn't "just happen", though through semantics, we could say that it does to the victims, theres usually a trail that leads up to it. And usually things that could've been done to prevent it as well.

Remember until he killed 2 people (remember he was found guilty in a civil case) we knew nothing of OJ Simpsons propensity toward violence. The papers were plastered with pictures, of a battered Nicole, the number of times, the police were called to the residence, that she even confided in a friend that if she was ever found dead , it was OJ that did it .

NONE of that was known prior to the trial, than after we were all scratching our heads, saying "how did nobody know?"

There's always a path, sometimes its just not that obvious at first.

And your reasoning isn't wrong, you may be right, I think on many points as well, but we simply don't know.

What we do know is that there are agencies and professionals out there out there that have studied these types of cases, in depth for years, and from those studies we have things we can analyze other crimes with.

The factors I listed above aren't my own, I wish I had a part in that study, but they come from people with many more years, analyzing the worst crimes and criminals on earth.

They are the ones who specialize in certain types of crimes , even the FBI Behavioral science unit is broken up into groups for ex BSU 1 deals with terrorists, BSU 2 deals with crimes against adults, BSU 3 deals with crimes against children etc...

SO even the experts are put into focus groups where they can concentrate on thats where this comes from , from people who make their living , and in many cases, their lifes mission to solve certain horrific types of crimes.

They're usually strangers, but only slightly less acquaintances, this was planned, but i feel he saw Molly there , returned another day to see if she was there alone, but if she wasn't there and there was another lone female he might've attacked. Whether he was there specifically for Molly or not we may never know, but that doesn't really change much about the type who committed this crime.
 
Despite a lot of common theories, violence doesn't "just happen", though through semantics, we could say that it does to the victims, theres usually a trail that leads up to it. And usually things that could've been done to prevent it as well.

Remember until he killed 2 people (remember he was found guilty in a civil case) we knew nothing of OJ Simpsons propensity toward violence. The papers were plastered with pictures, of a battered Nicole, the number of times, the police were called to the residence, that she even confided in a friend that if she was ever found dead , it was OJ that did it .

NONE of that was known prior to the trial, than after we were all scratching our heads, saying "how did nobody know?"

There's always a path, sometimes its just not that obvious at first.

And your reasoning isn't wrong, you may be right, I think on many points as well, but we simply don't know.

What we do know is that there are agencies and professionals out there out there that have studied these types of cases, in depth for years, and from those studies we have things we can analyze other crimes with.

The factors I listed above aren't my own, I wish I had a part in that study, but they come from people with many more years, analyzing the worst crimes and criminals on earth.

They are the ones who specialize in certain types of crimes , even the FBI Behavioral science unit is broken up into groups for ex BSU 1 deals with terrorists, BSU 2 deals with crimes against adults, BSU 3 deals with crimes against children etc...

SO even the experts are put into focus groups where they can concentrate on thats where this comes from , from people who make their living , and in many cases, their lifes mission to solve certain horrific types of crimes.

They're usually strangers, but only slightly less acquaintances, this was planned, but i feel he saw Molly there , returned another day to see if she was there alone, but if she wasn't there and there was another lone female he might've attacked. Whether he was there specifically for Molly or not we may never know, but that doesn't really change much about the type who committed this crime.

According to the story of the day before the abduction, June 26th, 2000, when the man in the white car did not leave the Commins Pond Beach parking lot, Molly's mother walked out to the beach to talk with her daughter Molly for a while until she thought enough time had passed that the man in the white car would be gone. I have never heard a ballpark estimate of how long that was that she stayed with Molly out on the beach.

But the point is that it kind of surprised me the abductor planned the crime for 10 am the following day. Why not wait until at least 10:15 am to be sure her mother was gone?

So again I am completely confused as to whether this was a planned crime or just a crime of opportunity and the victim did not really matter as long as they were there. It looks planned, but I cannot say for sure.

I think you definitely have to consider that opportunity is one of the most important aspects of a crime. And when it comes to public places that are accessible to strangers the opportunity level tends to go up.

I think the reason Molly Bish's case is such a mystery is because of the white car. White cars seem to be driven by everyone and seen everywhere. It is almost symbolic. As long as the criminal is everyone, it will never be anyone. The timing could have been planned or it could have been pure luck that the abductor took Molly Bish before the first witness arrived that day. You just don't know.
 
According to the story of the day before the abduction, June 26th, 2000, when the man in the white car did not leave the Commins Pond Beach parking lot, Molly's mother walked out to the beach to talk with her daughter Molly for a while until she thought enough time had passed that the man in the white car would be gone. I have never heard a ballpark estimate of how long that was that she stayed with Molly out on the beach.

But the point is that it kind of surprised me the abductor planned the crime for 10 am the following day. Why not wait until at least 10:15 am to be sure her mother was gone?

So again I am completely confused as to whether this was a planned crime or just a crime of opportunity and the victim did not really matter as long as they were there. It looks planned, but I cannot say for sure.

I think you definitely have to consider that opportunity is one of the most important aspects of a crime. And when it comes to public places that are accessible to strangers the opportunity level tends to go up.

I think the reason Molly Bish's case is such a mystery is because of the white car. White cars seem to be driven by everyone and seen everywhere. It is almost symbolic. As long as the criminal is everyone, it will never be anyone. The timing could have been planned or it could have been pure luck that the abductor took Molly Bish before the first witness arrived that day. You just don't know.

Theres always the chance it was, but the evidence suggests otherwise

Most abductions are unplanned , as a matter of fact the victim appearance other than their gender , and them being without another adult around is usually the SOLE reason a child is targeted .

the offender is usually riding through the area for some reason, they have issues they see this child with no one around and their poor impulse control takes over , most kids are on their way to or from school when abducted, and are usually abducted less then a half mile from their home.

This case is different though, though he may have seen Molly initially by chance he knew he could access the pond area through the cemetery , which indicates familiarity, he could've found it by chance, but then the offender is taking a HUGE risk if he attempts to abduct a girl and there are other people there . Or if someone just happens to be in the cemetary etc..

He most likely knew she (or another female) was there alone , he didnt park in the lot , he parked in the cemetery and approached her from there if the dogs were correct, and speaking from experience the dogs are usually pretty accurate, I know our dogs arent even scent dogs, and they find A LOT of people, (given they are usually people runing from us and they get chomped...but hey... stop when we tell you)

Anyway,

The fact this occurred before the place was even open demonstrates that he knew when to show up, he was able to get a teenager to walk some 200 yards to a waiting vehicle, he got her out of there unnoticed.

I cant say why if it was the man in the car he wouldn't wait maybe 15 minutes to try to abduct her, I think it was probably because he didnt know when other people would be there, I feel he simply moved the car somewhere and waited to see how long it was before people started showing up .

He may have even drove over to the cemetery that day and found the path.

The chances of someone just walking through that area armed with something or with the gift of gab enough to get a reportedly extremely responsible teenager, to walk either voluntarily or by force some 200 yards to a adjacent area, are pretty slim.

From what I was once told the pond area isn't immediately visible from the cemetery, you have to walk a bit , therefore its not like someone could just see her by chance from that vantage point.

In MOST abduction murders physical characteristics had almost no bearing on the offenders decision to act, the child was chosen because they were alone. In this case we dont know, we can only base it on what we know about these types of crimes, and offenders.

But here's where it gets creepy

In cases, where a child was chosen because of a physical characteristic by an offender (hair color, dress etc..) the offender usually also committed multiple offenses either prior to or after.

Though this may have no bearing on Molly's case, but if she was chosen because perhaps she was a blonde, or because he liked young girls in bathing suits, or even young girls, the offender most often will become or is already a serial offender.

Those who abduct and murder children for sexual purposes, already have a much higher rate of becoming serial offenders as it is . But if youre dealing with an individual with fetishistic issues and a specific victim preference, particularly if their crime demonstrates planning and organization, youre getting into serial killer territory.

Im not sure if thats the case, here with Molly, but I can tell you those who abduct kids, dont usually plan the event the way this one was , they dont usually take as large a risk as this one did , they dont usually know how to control a victim the way this one did , get her out of there unseen and unheard the way this one did, kill and hide a victim in a place where she would most likely never be found the way this one did .

Again that doesnt mean he was at the point of Mollys murder, he couldve been, I feel this was possibly his first murder, there couldve been others or crimes like rape, but id stake my reputation, on saying he either did , or was certainly on his way to becoming a serial killer, after .

If Molly was grabbed walking home, were looking for a different type of individual.

The killer in this case, was either someone she knew vaguely enough to feel comfortable enough, to walk with him willingly

Or someone who threatened her in some form and forced her to walk out of there .

Both indicate some form of planning .
 
Theres always the chance it was, but the evidence suggests otherwise

Most abductions are unplanned , as a matter of fact the victim appearance other than their gender , and them being without another adult around is usually the SOLE reason a child is targeted .

the offender is usually riding through the area for some reason, they have issues they see this child with no one around and their poor impulse control takes over , most kids are on their way to or from school when abducted, and are usually abducted less then a half mile from their home.

This case is different though, though he may have seen Molly initially by chance he knew he could access the pond area through the cemetery , which indicates familiarity, he could've found it by chance, but then the offender is taking a HUGE risk if he attempts to abduct a girl and there are other people there . Or if someone just happens to be in the cemetary etc..

He most likely knew she (or another female) was there alone , he didnt park in the lot , he parked in the cemetery and approached her from there if the dogs were correct, and speaking from experience the dogs are usually pretty accurate, I know our dogs arent even scent dogs, and they find A LOT of people, (given they are usually people runing from us and they get chomped...but hey... stop when we tell you)

Anyway,

The fact this occurred before the place was even open demonstrates that he knew when to show up, he was able to get a teenager to walk some 200 yards to a waiting vehicle, he got her out of there unnoticed.

I cant say why if it was the man in the car he wouldn't wait maybe 15 minutes to try to abduct her, I think it was probably because he didnt know when other people would be there, I feel he simply moved the car somewhere and waited to see how long it was before people started showing up .

He may have even drove over to the cemetery that day and found the path.

The chances of someone just walking through that area armed with something or with the gift of gab enough to get a reportedly extremely responsible teenager, to walk either voluntarily or by force some 200 yards to a adjacent area, are pretty slim.

From what I was once told the pond area isn't immediately visible from the cemetery, you have to walk a bit , therefore its not like someone could just see her by chance from that vantage point.

In MOST abduction murders physical characteristics had almost no bearing on the offenders decision to act, the child was chosen because they were alone. In this case we dont know, we can only base it on what we know about these types of crimes, and offenders.

But here's where it gets creepy

In cases, where a child was chosen because of a physical characteristic by an offender (hair color, dress etc..) the offender usually also committed multiple offenses either prior to or after.

Though this may have no bearing on Molly's case, but if she was chosen because perhaps she was a blonde, or because he liked young girls in bathing suits, or even young girls, the offender most often will become or is already a serial offender.

Those who abduct and murder children for sexual purposes, already have a much higher rate of becoming serial offenders as it is . But if youre dealing with an individual with fetishistic issues and a specific victim preference, particularly if their crime demonstrates planning and organization, youre getting into serial killer territory.

Im not sure if thats the case, here with Molly, but I can tell you those who abduct kids, dont usually plan the event the way this one was , they dont usually take as large a risk as this one did , they dont usually know how to control a victim the way this one did , get her out of there unseen and unheard the way this one did, kill and hide a victim in a place where she would most likely never be found the way this one did .

Again that doesnt mean he was at the point of Mollys murder, he couldve been, I feel this was possibly his first murder, there couldve been others or crimes like rape, but id stake my reputation, on saying he either did , or was certainly on his way to becoming a serial killer, after .

If Molly was grabbed walking home, were looking for a different type of individual.

The killer in this case, was either someone she knew vaguely enough to feel comfortable enough, to walk with him willingly

Or someone who threatened her in some form and forced her to walk out of there .

Both indicate some form of planning .

But if that's the case, then he obviously would not have known about Molly Bish being the lifeguard or the cemetery path before June 26, 2000, if it is the guy in the white car?

That would be strange for example if he knew Molly Bish was the lifeguard on June 25, 2000, thought about committing this crime, but then decided "Hey, you know what I will do? I will sit in the parking lot tomorrow and stare at the mother so she remembers me." And according to the story, Molly's mother went out to the beach to stay a little while with her daughter. Then she came back and the man in the white car was still there staring.

So even with time to think about it, he decided this was a smart thing to do? He must be a risk taker because if Molly's mother had gotten a license plate number I think he would have been caught. Because we also have to remember as part of his plan for the next day he had 24 hours to think about it, but decided he would use the same car too.

This criminal seems so lucky. That had to be a difficult walk without shoes on for Molly. And then the criminal gets lucky with police seeing the sandals, giving the impression she is still somewhere on the property, but may have drowned. Even if she had her sandals on, it would certainly be strange if they were neatly together with a water bottle in one of them. That certainly gives the impression the victim took off their sandals and was not abducted with them on.

So the crime scene is strange, but I can only guess what actually happened.
 
But if that's the case, then he obviously would not have known about Molly Bish being the lifeguard or the cemetery path before June 26, 2000, if it is the guy in the white car?

That would be strange for example if he knew Molly Bish was the lifeguard on June 25, 2000, thought about committing this crime, but then decided "Hey, you know what I will do? I will sit in the parking lot tomorrow and stare at the mother so she remembers me." And according to the story, Molly's mother went out to the beach to stay a little while with her daughter. Then she came back and the man in the white car was still there staring.

So even with time to think about it, he decided this was a smart thing to do? He must be a risk taker because if Molly's mother had gotten a license plate number I think he would have been caught. Because we also have to remember as part of his plan for the next day he had 24 hours to think about it, but decided he would use the same car too.

This criminal seems so lucky. That had to be a difficult walk without shoes on for Molly. And then the criminal gets lucky with police seeing the sandals, giving the impression she is still somewhere on the property, but may have drowned. Even if she had her sandals on, it would certainly be strange if they were neatly together with a water bottle in one of them. That certainly gives the impression the victim took off their sandals and was not abducted with them on.

So the crime scene is strange, but I can only guess what actually happened.

All any of us can do is guess, but we can look at that the end result was and deduct certain things.

We know she was there, we know she left, we know she died and was found somewhere else, those are facts, the rest is based, off circumstantial evidence, we surmise she was abducted, we surmise there was sexual assault, we surmise she was murdered.

Sadly in her case theres not much to work with, i beleie only 26 bones were ever recovered along with pieces, of her bathing suit that were appearently cut off .

In order to figure out what happened you need to look at the evidence (what little of it there is) use what is known about these types of crimes, filling in the blanks as best you can and piece together a scenario.

That's why we do victimology assessments, they tell you about the most important actor in the scene, the victim, what was she like, what were here fears, how would she react to certain things, were they stalked, were they stalking anyone, were they having any issues anywhere else in their lives? That gives us an idea of who would be able to interact with them and how

Next we profile the unknown offender, the FBI terminology for an unknown suspect is "UNSUB" , we look at what behavior the offender has demonstrated, then we work backwards to infer a personality from there.

From there you try to set a base minimum of what we know , for example, we believe he used a knife to cut her bathing suit off, so it wouldn't be to far a stretch to say he could've used the knife to force her to walk with him, its also possible that's how he killed her as well.

Then from there we simply don't know we have to look for clues, Perhaps he approached her asking for help saying he cut his hand she went into her first aid bag and he grabbed her and said "dont make a sound, come with me" .

Or perhaps it wasnt such an unfamiliar face , that worked nearby, and it wasn't out of the ordinary for him to be in the area, which also doesnt exclude him from producing some type of weapon and forcing her to walk

I say force because if she was conned into going anywhere i feel she would've most likely put her flip flops on .

Then of each thing ask WHY?

The evidence at the scene, seems to indicate she went into her 1st aid bag for something ask why

She then left walking 200 yards, including through wooded areas , without anything on her feet, ask why.

She was most likely lead out of there away from the most obvious point of escape , the main entrance, ask why.

She was found a few miles away from where she was last seen, ask why.

Her bathing suit was cut off, ask why.

Those are how you come to a conclusion
 
Theres always the chance it was, but the evidence suggests otherwise

Most abductions are unplanned , as a matter of fact the victim appearance other than their gender , and them being without another adult around is usually the SOLE reason a child is targeted .

the offender is usually riding through the area for some reason, they have issues they see this child with no one around and their poor impulse control takes over , most kids are on their way to or from school when abducted, and are usually abducted less then a half mile from their home.

This case is different though, though he may have seen Molly initially by chance he knew he could access the pond area through the cemetery , which indicates familiarity, he could've found it by chance, but then the offender is taking a HUGE risk if he attempts to abduct a girl and there are other people there . Or if someone just happens to be in the cemetary etc..

He most likely knew she (or another female) was there alone , he didnt park in the lot , he parked in the cemetery and approached her from there if the dogs were correct, and speaking from experience the dogs are usually pretty accurate, I know our dogs arent even scent dogs, and they find A LOT of people, (given they are usually people runing from us and they get chomped...but hey... stop when we tell you)

Anyway,

The fact this occurred before the place was even open demonstrates that he knew when to show up, he was able to get a teenager to walk some 200 yards to a waiting vehicle, he got her out of there unnoticed.

I cant say why if it was the man in the car he wouldn't wait maybe 15 minutes to try to abduct her, I think it was probably because he didnt know when other people would be there, I feel he simply moved the car somewhere and waited to see how long it was before people started showing up .

He may have even drove over to the cemetery that day and found the path.

The chances of someone just walking through that area armed with something or with the gift of gab enough to get a reportedly extremely responsible teenager, to walk either voluntarily or by force some 200 yards to a adjacent area, are pretty slim.

From what I was once told the pond area isn't immediately visible from the cemetery, you have to walk a bit , therefore its not like someone could just see her by chance from that vantage point.

In MOST abduction murders physical characteristics had almost no bearing on the offenders decision to act, the child was chosen because they were alone. In this case we dont know, we can only base it on what we know about these types of crimes, and offenders.

But here's where it gets creepy

In cases, where a child was chosen because of a physical characteristic by an offender (hair color, dress etc..) the offender usually also committed multiple offenses either prior to or after.

Though this may have no bearing on Molly's case, but if she was chosen because perhaps she was a blonde, or because he liked young girls in bathing suits, or even young girls, the offender most often will become or is already a serial offender.

Those who abduct and murder children for sexual purposes, already have a much higher rate of becoming serial offenders as it is . But if youre dealing with an individual with fetishistic issues and a specific victim preference, particularly if their crime demonstrates planning and organization, youre getting into serial killer territory.

Im not sure if thats the case, here with Molly, but I can tell you those who abduct kids, dont usually plan the event the way this one was , they dont usually take as large a risk as this one did , they dont usually know how to control a victim the way this one did , get her out of there unseen and unheard the way this one did, kill and hide a victim in a place where she would most likely never be found the way this one did .

Again that doesnt mean he was at the point of Mollys murder, he couldve been, I feel this was possibly his first murder, there couldve been others or crimes like rape, but id stake my reputation, on saying he either did , or was certainly on his way to becoming a serial killer, after .

If Molly was grabbed walking home, were looking for a different type of individual.

The killer in this case, was either someone she knew vaguely enough to feel comfortable enough, to walk with him willingly

Or someone who threatened her in some form and forced her to walk out of there .

Both indicate some form of planning .

It was planned. But not the first day he seen her. But it was planned according to his watch and perhaps even the day. But he calculated the best time in his mind on that day when to abduct her. He was overly confident he could do it and get away with it. And so far he has done just that. EXAMPLE....At say 10:30 AM or whatever. Around a specific time was the time to abduct. He probably walked up behind her as she was distracted while going through her first aid kit for whatever reason. I don't sense him using a ruse, like a ted Bundy to fake an injury. That would have been risky, wasting valuable seconds on a ruse.....His goal at the time was walk to her , grab her probably by the arm, tell her you scream, you don't do what i tell you, i will kill you right here right now.....And she could tell looking into her his eyes he was not kidding. She did what she was told to do.

And i agree that Molly was the type of girl he liked. physically she was a match. And working alone, she was an opportunity he could not pass up.

The trill factor for him must had been off the charts. His adrenaline had to be pumping like never before, or in a long time. He loved that HIGH he got. A addiction.

I don't know if the cause of death has been released, and im not going to look. But i will take a guess outside the box, and say Molly was strangled to death. Not he did not strangle her just to keep her quite. He, in his mind was also strangling the woman whom told on him and sent him to prison. Another wards, he was thinking of that woman' while killing Molly.

I think that there is at least one woman, before this or after. That may have been raped, attempted rape, some kind of sexual assault, stranger boyfriend whatever that fits the general physical characteristics of Molly. .After all these years, i wish they would/could come forward and report it. But perhaps its the fear factor, or the desire to forget the whole thing is why they have not. Don't want to relive it in court or whatever.

THE ABOVE IS ALL MOO AND SPECULATIONS. NOTHING BEING POSTED AS FACT. ALL ASSUMPTIONS, THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX. A POSSIBLE THERORY.
 
Manual strangulation followed by ligature strangulation are the most used methods to dispatch victims

its also possible he used a knife, remember they recovered only 26 bones

we know he had something to cut her clothes off .

Teens are most often abducted by ruse but i think it was a combination of both maybe approaching saying he hurt himself in case someone was there with her then pulling a weapon and telling her to move
 
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All any of us can do is guess, but we can look at that the end result was and deduct certain things.

We know she was there, we know she left, we know she died and was found somewhere else, those are facts, the rest is based, off circumstantial evidence, we surmise she was abducted, we surmise there was sexual assault, we surmise she was murdered.

Sadly in her case theres not much to work with, i beleie only 26 bones were ever recovered along with pieces, of her bathing suit that were appearently cut off .

In order to figure out what happened you need to look at the evidence (what little of it there is) use what is known about these types of crimes, filling in the blanks as best you can and piece together a scenario.

That's why we do victimology assessments, they tell you about the most important actor in the scene, the victim, what was she like, what were here fears, how would she react to certain things, were they stalked, were they stalking anyone, were they having any issues anywhere else in their lives? That gives us an idea of who would be able to interact with them and how

Next we profile the unknown offender, the FBI terminology for an unknown suspect is "UNSUB" , we look at what behavior the offender has demonstrated, then we work backwards to infer a personality from there.

From there you try to set a base minimum of what we know , for example, we believe he used a knife to cut her bathing suit off, so it wouldn't be to far a stretch to say he could've used the knife to force her to walk with him, its also possible that's how he killed her as well.

Then from there we simply don't know we have to look for clues, Perhaps he approached her asking for help saying he cut his hand she went into her first aid bag and he grabbed her and said "dont make a sound, come with me" .

Or perhaps it wasnt such an unfamiliar face , that worked nearby, and it wasn't out of the ordinary for him to be in the area, which also doesnt exclude him from producing some type of weapon and forcing her to walk

I say force because if she was conned into going anywhere i feel she would've most likely put her flip flops on .

Then of each thing ask WHY?

The evidence at the scene, seems to indicate she went into her 1st aid bag for something ask why

She then left walking 200 yards, including through wooded areas , without anything on her feet, ask why.

She was most likely lead out of there away from the most obvious point of escape , the main entrance, ask why.

She was found a few miles away from where she was last seen, ask why.

Her bathing suit was cut off, ask why.

Those are how you come to a conclusion

You make some good points. I am not a profiler. The point about the flip flops is important. If the abductor were the parks commissioner, for example, it would be easier to tell her he needs her help to get something out of his car. Then she could put on her flip flops and follow him to the car without a weapon.

I did not know the bathing suit was cut off. I guess that could be assumed, but I thought with the body being out in the woods for so long that even if the bathing suit was not with the body, maybe animals and the environment were responsible for it becoming torn.

It would be nice to explain why certain criminals do the things they do. Knowing why would probably go a long way in trying to understand the particular events surrounding the beach chair crime scene and how things unfolded the day Molly Bish disappeared.

I think you can go round and round with ideas about who may have abducted and murdered Molly Bish. I want to pick a suspect and stick with it, but I don't know. It could be a complete stranger who has never even been questioned as a part of the investigation. Some things remain unknown I guess.
 
Criminals arent that hard to figure out if youre willing to understand that they think on a differnt channel than most normal people.

Its like Col. David Grossman says in his landmark book, "On combat" there are 3 types of people,

"We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin’s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

“Then there are the wolves,” the old war veteran said, “and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.” Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

“Then there are sheepdogs,” he went on, “and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.” Or, as a sign in one California law enforcement agency put it, “We intimidate those who intimidate others.”

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen: a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath--a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed."

Name a type of crime its been studied for decades most likely
 
Once you understand that criminals and law abiding citizens, are only identical physiologically, (there may even be some emerging findings on that ) but the gray matter works differently, you understand that they are just different from us mentally.

I can cite hundreds otf them , but heres an example

I had a case, once where brought in a female inmate to testify against a woman, who had been sitting in county for 2-3 years already.

The woman in question, ran an in home daycare, her husband Jeffrey was on disability, so he was always home with her and the children she watched.

Parents began noticing strange things, and injuries to their kids so she was investigated, one of the kids said "Jeffrey did it"

It turns out the husband he molested and even raped a number of the the kids while she was taking care of them , with her full knowledge, and even helped him cover up evidence, ......remember she had already been in prison for 2 years.

Oddly there was very little evidence against the husband, because she and he took time to make sure there wasn't any, but knowing she had witnessed it the prosecutor sought to offer her a plea deal.

Testify against Jeffrey, put what amounts to a sexually violent predator behind bars for the next 30 years, and you'll be granted a 5 year sentence of which her time would already count.

She outright refused it , the other inmate took the stand and told the judge, that the other woman had confessed in prison that she knew he was raping kids , and she even watched it , then helped him cover it up , she didnt consider it "cheating on her" because it was something "he really wanted" she said when she expressed her disgust at the woman in question, "how can you be so faithful to a guy who's having sex with little kids right in front of you"? ....she would just stop talking, and just say ...because she "just loved Jeffrey"

The judge told her she was looking at a maximum of possibly 15 -20 years in jail, she looked up and said "he didnt do anything", and then said under her breath while i'm standing next to her "you make sacrifices for the ones you love" .....

She made sacrifices alright, ...she sacrificed the innocence of over a dozen children to satisfy the deviant urges of some who told he he loved her.

I and a female deputy escorted her back to the detention center, on the elevator i just had to ask, I said' SO youre really willing to sit in prison for the next decade and a half for some s***stain, that not only cheated on you, but raped kids , in front of your face , then allowed you to take the fall?"

She looked at me up and down like I was nuts then said "Then you don't know what love is"

So I took a flier and asked her "If Jeffrey told you to kill someone would you do it ?".. and again to my astonishment she said "You just dont understand"... I took that as a yes

If I recall Jeffrey bonded out and shes still sitting in prison for him.

Every cop, DA, Sheriff, detective, eventually comes to understand , ......criminals just think differently than we do .
 
"Every cop, DA, Sheriff, detective, eventually comes to understand , ......criminals just think differently than we do .[/QUOTE]"

If anyone does not understand what Kell1 is saying and/or wants to explore the subject further, please read the "N.O.R.P." Judge Dennis Challeen. N.O.R.P. = Normal Ordinary Responsible Person. It is an insightful read about how criminals think as opposed to how NORP think.
 
Why did you kill that person ?

Sociopath: "Because why not , F them" or "I don't know what youre talking about" or (Silence)

Psychopath:"I like to watch them slip away, that look in their eyes " or "You're just trying to pin it on me"
 
I remember this case once. It happened a long time ago so please forgive me if I do not have all the details correct. I think it took place in the Seattle area. Maybe you have heard of it? I will try to relate the story from what I remember.

It was a case about a stockbroker. He wanted to achieve his dream of being a great stockbroker and making a lot of money. Unfortunately he was not very good at making stock decisions. He lost money and the more he tried, the more money he lost. Eventually the company he worked for fired him.

Still determined to be a great stockbroker he tried to keep making trades with the money he still had. But it got worse. Eventually he was broke, but he never told his family. I cannot remember if he was married or living at home, but he was so embarrassed by the situation that every day he would still dress up in a suit and tie and leave to make it appear he was still going to work. Saddled with debt, broke, and unemployed, he felt he had nothing left. I cannot remember if he was investing other peoples money too, but he was in a bad situation.

So he decided to start robbing banks in order to get money. But he realized that since he was not a criminal he was probably not going to be that good at it. So he did something that I think most regular bank robbers you read about never do. He went to the library and researched and read as many stories as he could about bank robberies.

According to his research he came up with an interesting statistic: 90% of bank robbers get caught because of their vehicle. So this man decided that if he was ever going to be successful at robbing banks he would have to figure out how to do it without using a vehicle. I cannot remember all the little details but I think he took a change of clothes with him whenever he robbed the bank so he could change soon after leaving the bank. His method was to simply pass the bank teller a note requesting money. I think he may have used his finger in his jacket to imply he had a weapon or maybe he did not have to, I cannot remember.

But the best part was the finishing touch that he put on each bank robbery. It is the one thing that I remember to this day. Before each bank robbery, he would go to Starbucks and get a cup of coffee. Then he would walk to the bank, but before he went inside he would leave the cup of coffee sitting somewhere outside the bank. After the robbery he would calmly pick up his cup of coffee and walk down the street, sometimes as the police were passing him responding to the robbery. Who would ever think a person walking down the street with a cup of coffee just got done committing the bank robbery?

Eventually he got caught because he got careless and left his fingerprint on one of the bank teller notes. Since he had a small juvenile record for something he did in high school, police were able to quickly match up the fingerprints and make a traffic stop to arrest him, which is ironic when you think about his research. I never read what happened to this man, except I think he did end up going to prison.

Understanding how people think sometimes is more complex. It is like when people respond, "So you have never taken anything that belongs to you?! We all have." I even got into an argument with family members because I said that police officers have a lot of integrity to do the right thing. My family members said that even police officers have lots of things in their background that includes cheating, lying, etc so stop trying to act like they are perfect. They're not. This is what was told to me. And I already know police officers are regular people too and that they are not perfect.

I am not saying it is ok to rob banks if you do not have money. But sometimes the line between ordinary people and criminals can get rather close sometimes.
 

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