MA MA - Molly Bish, 16, Warren, 27 Jun 2000

[Yemelyan]

Why wasn't his DNA in CODIS? This case may have been solved much sooner if it had been.

I think it's because Sumner committed aggravated rape and kidnapping in 1982 (or thereabouts) and Massachusetts, which passed a law about requiring DNA to be submitted to state and national databases for certain types of felons in 1999, only codified that people who committed their offenses on or after 12/29/1997 were required to provide DNA samples.

The relevant case that established this was Murphy vs. Department of Correction (1999): Massachusetts law about DNA evidence.

 

[somequestions]

The sketch of the man in the white car smoking a cigarette compared to the picture of Sumner smoking the cigarette is very close. None of us ever had the same information as the police so all we could do was speculate about what is known. Even so, it is interesting to play armchair detective in a case like this where any theory seems possible.

In my opinion there is a theme that runs through this case: Molly Bish was abducted "in the middle of....."

Molly was abducted in the middle of checking her first aid kit or helping a stranger who approached her(first aid kit was open).

Molly was abducted in the middle of taking off her sandals and placing them next to the chair.(according to the picture from 48 hours one sandal was facing the water and the other was facing the hill with a Poland Springs water bottle sitting in the heel)

Molly was abducted in the middle of setting up her lifeguard chair and equipment.(the whistle and police radio were still in her backpack and the backpack was further away sitting on or near a wooden bench). It seemed odd to me for her to take off her sandals if she still had to walk over sticks in the sand.

I watched a lot of videos on youtube about dump trucks delivering a load of sand or dirt. I have no idea who this sand truck driver is or if it is some old man not capable of being the murderer. I wanted to see how often dump truck drivers get out of their truck and what they wear. But it could just as well be a work supervisor with a bad alibi or a stranger in a white car. And I would have done the same thing as police at the beginning, investigated the white car as the main suspect. The man in the white car has never been explained.

That is why whenever I theorized about the case it only made sense to me if it really happened that way and maybe now we know it did. Many times coincidences are just that. But if there is one thing I still think, it is that she had to be abducted in the middle of...

 

[somequestions]

In order for Molly Bish to have been adducted "in the middle of" certain parts of the crime this is how it probably happened. I am assuming the crime scene picture on 48 hours was correct when theorizing how the crime happened.

She was facing the water and took off her sandals. She either was drinking from the water bottle or had the water bottle near her. She put the first sandal, the right one, next to her chair and put the water bottle in the right heel. Then she turned back to get the other one, but a stranger approached her asking for a band aid or something else from the first aid kit. As she lifts her head up to give this person the band aid, they pull a weapon and demand that she move as they direct her up the hill and away from the beach area. The first aid kit is left open. Or maybe they knocked her unconscious and dragged her up the hill.

The only part that does not make sense to me is the whistle and police radio being left in the backpack on the bench. It looks like you would have to cross over sticks in the sand which could hurt your feet. You have to have a whistle to lifeguard and making the police radio call-in is vital for safety. Maybe she was going to rest in the chair and do those things along with removing her outer clothing when it got closer to the time swim lessons started? Maybe she had tough soles on her feet or the sticks in the sand where not that bad, but she would definitely need to remove the water bottle if she were going to put back on her right sandal.

It makes sense, even if(in my opinion) not completely chronological.

 

[somequestions]

What is so unique about Molly Bish's case is that when you do not have eyewitnesses or evidence, it is so easy to focus on all the little details. That seems to be all you have so that is what you focus on. Even during the first 3 years before her remains were found, there had to be people who thought that she may have run away, although that seemed very unlikely without shoes.

It is easy to get caught up in the little details about a case and think you are on to something, even if it was actually nothing. It definitely changed how I have looked at other cases since.

 

[Bmars]

Ok here I go down the rabbit hole! I watch missing persons shows all the time and serial killer documentaries. I now live so close to this case I know people who live on that rd. Not wanting to change my view of my own surrounding I travel often I stayed away from this case (Till Now). A lot has seemed to change from 2000 till when I moved to Ma in 2010. I have heard bits a pieces of the case and now find myself living in a "crime scene area" I guess you would call it.
Now I know almost every stone has been turned over in this case and a creepy white car fisherman did not pan out for years, Did they look at it possibly as a jealousy killing done by males or females? The trail of evidence left to mislead and or to be found as it was? Is somebody hiding in plain sight be being overlooked? There are so many new investigation techniuqes today including great people on sites like this for a different perspective to help the family get closure.
I have now fell down this rabbit hole

 

[somequestions]

Ok here I go down the rabbit hole! I watch missing persons shows all the time and serial killer documentaries. I now live so close to this case I know people who live on that rd. Not wanting to change my view of my own surrounding I travel often I stayed away from this case (Till Now). A lot has seemed to change from 2000 till when I moved to Ma in 2010. I have heard bits a pieces of the case and now find myself living in a "crime scene area" I guess you would call it.
Now I know almost every stone has been turned over in this case and a creepy white car fisherman did not pan out for years, Did they look at it possibly as a jealousy killing done by males or females? The trail of evidence left to mislead and or to be found as it was? Is somebody hiding in plain sight be being overlooked? There are so many new investigation techniuqes today including great people on sites like this for a different perspective to help the family get closure.
I have now fell down this rabbit hole

I do not know if you have gone down the rabbit hole until you have written as many posts about this case as I have.

This case is unique in that it is symbolic of many cases where there is or at least seems like there are no witnesses and very little evidence besides DNA. The police do say they have DNA in this case. Known people in the case you have to assume have already been tested and eliminated.

From an online perspective about the only thing you can do is overanalyze every little detail. I still do not know certain information, like where this "shed" is at Commins Pond? I am guessing it is part of the building as you park at the beach or the porta-potty looking thing near the parking lot. I did a lot of guessing with this case in terms of information. I suppose it does not matter anyway in terms of it proving anything.

This case does prove something about investigation, and that is that you have to have more than some coincidences and little details. You need to have conclusive evidence to solve a case or else you get caught up in the little things. It is not that I do not think little things matter, but factual evidence is very important. The police did the right thing by fully investigating the white car theory. And just because the driver or the white car have not been found does not mean that person is not involved either.

Good luck going down that rabbit hole. The case is not solved so your perspective is as good as anyone else's.

 

[weepingangel]

DNA in Molly Bish Case Isn't a Match, Sister Says: ‘It's Disappointing'

Nearly 22 years after Molly Bish disappeared from her lifeguard post at Comins Pond in Warren, Massachusetts, the search for her killer has hit another roadblock. Molly Bish’s older sister Heather said in an interview with NBC10 Boston on Monday that the latest update in the case is...

www.necn.com

 

[lowes123]

DNA in Molly Bish Case Isn't a Match, Sister Says: ‘It's Disappointing'

Nearly 22 years after Molly Bish disappeared from her lifeguard post at Comins Pond in Warren, Massachusetts, the search for her killer has hit another roadblock. Molly Bish’s older sister Heather said in an interview with NBC10 Boston on Monday that the latest update in the case is...

www.necn.com

Wow, I had really thought they knew it was him. It is back to square 1 with finding her killer. I feel awful for her family, this was a major blow to them.

 

[Yemelyan]

Wow, I had really thought they knew it was him. It is back to square 1 with finding her killer. I feel awful for her family, this was a major blow to them.

Definitely a major blow. I could feel the disappointment in every word that her sister said in that article.

The article does say, however, that investigators "remain focused" on Sumner. If that's so, one possibility is that the DNA that they have for comparison against POIs is something like saliva from a cigarette butt recovered near the abduction spot. If it had been a match, it wouldn't be probative as to who killed her (like blood or semen on her clothes, for example), but it would have been a significant step towards showing who could have been at that location on that day on question. So now they have to look at testing other items and/or develop their case in a different way.

 

[somequestions]

As a murder case this is such a tough case to solve. I think it is good they have DNA though because that means it could potentially be solved someday. If it really was some stranger in a white car who knew about Commins Pond and the new lifeguard who had only worked there for 8 day, then where did that person come from? It could be anyone who knew about Commins Pond or the cemetery behind it.

About the only benefit of this long of a period of time is hindsight. In my opinion, I have not heard of other crimes in the same area being committed in the same way. That could mean that it could possibly be someone who knew her.

<modsnip>

After that, based solely on the crime scene photo from 48 Hours Mystery, I would have investigated the sand truck driver only because maybe Molly Bish was not fully setup for lifeguarding and the abductor may not have known that if they put the water bottle in the right sandal heel. Her sandals may not have been off her feet yet unless they fell off. I have never heard how old or who this sand truck driver even is. It is just a person I have heard about in the investigation who I think could potentially have had on gloves at the time of the crime. After watching some youtube videos of dump trucks that is the only reason. I know that is an incredibly small detail that could mean absolutely nothing.

 

[somequestions]

I think the crime scene picture from 48 Hours may be the actual crime scene picture since I have seen the same beach chair setup a few times now on the news. The sandals look strange to me. Most of the time when people remove their shoes, the shoes remain together. With sandals I would usually slide them off with the heels of my feet. This really insignificant detail was what really got me to thinking that maybe she was interrupted and somehow her sandals fell off.

I guess this is one of the main reasons the work supervisor is probably not involved. Molly would have been able to put on her sandals.

In this case I wish there was more information. This is what leaves the case open to so much interpretation. When the parents at the pond realized the lifeguard was not there that morning, how did they contact the work supervisor? This was the year 2000 after all. Was it by cell phone? Did someone leave the pond to find the work supervisor to let him know to go to the pond because the lifeguard was not there? Another person who has posted said that the work supervisor was actually painting a fence at the time with another man. As long as that man saw him painting the fence during 10 am - around 11:15 am, the time it is thought he arrived at the pond, then he is not a suspect in my book. After waiting around for Molly for a little less than half an hour, the work supervisor eventually called the police at 11:44 am using the two way radio Molly had with her.

Or it could have been the man in the white car who stalked her and planned the abduction. That is still a possibility.

The irony is that for all we know the man in the white car may have prevented an abduction on Monday, June 26, 2000. The story goes that when the man in the white car did not leave, Mrs. Bish went out on to the beach to talk a while with Molly. If someone had planned the abduction for 10 am on Monday, June 26, 2000, and was watching Molly from up the hill, they would have seen her mother out on the beach with her and decided against that day for the abduction. Then they would have to choose the next day at 10 am instead. This is if the abduction was planned, but in my opinion there is no evidence it was planned. It could have been someone who was already out on the beach.

 

[somequestions]

I agree that one of the most disappointing aspects of this case was the loss of the "crime scene", the area where Molly Bish's beach chair was located.

The one thing we know for sure, or at least I am relatively sure of, is that Molly Bish was standing and was barefoot when she was abducted. The reason is the small case in the seat of the beach chair from the picture of the crime scene. Maybe this was a small first aid kit? She had to be standing. And she was probably barefoot because she was able to put the Poland Springs water bottle in the heel of her right sandal before someone approached her. Usually when we take off one shoe we take off the other shortly thereafter. And the sandals were left there.

But the loss of the crime scene meant that anyone could have trampled through the area of her beach chair after the abduction. The only thing you can hope to rely on once that happened is the first people who arrived to the beach that day and saw the crime scene before it got trampled.

If the crime scene had been preserved, the one thing I wondered about was footprints or sandal prints from Molly stepping on the sand. Maybe the sandals had a logo on the bottom? Everything is left open to interpretation in this case because you cannot eliminate anything. You cannot even say for sure whether or not Molly Bish was abducted from the area where her beach chair and first aid kit were. It looks that way, but you never know.

 

[somequestions]

I am guessing the restrooms at Commins Pond are in that building on the beach near the parking lot. I wondered because of the water bottle Molly Bish had with her.

I suppose that is the one thing you can probably eliminate in this case: Molly Bish did not use the restroom. She probably would not have walked in there without her sandals on.

The perspective you have about a case can affect how you look at it. I took lifeguard certification for physical fitness, but never took a job as a lifeguard. I think that is the problem. I always look at everything from the perspective of being a lifeguard.

 

[somequestions]

I guess about the only thing we can deduce from the crime scene in Molly Bish's case is that if the abductor pretended to have a cut on their hand and asked Molly Bish for a Band-Aid from the first aid kit, they probably were not wearing gloves. I suppose you would not need gloves if you were brandishing a weapon like a gun or a knife.

Still, it is strange she never got the chance to check or close the first aid kit or put her sandals next to one another.

I still cannot tell by looking at the crime scene photo from 48 Hours Mystery what item is the first aid kit. I remember back when I took lifeguarding class I did not even know lifeguards needed to have first aid training. I know this only means that is the way I thought at the time, not the way everyone else thinks when they first sign up to take lifeguarding class.

 

[weepingangel]

Family of Molly Bish Wants New Investigators Assigned to Her Case

The family of murdered lifeguard Molly Bish is demanding new investigators be assigned to the case decades after the horrible crime. Molly’s family tells the NBC10 Investigators they’ve lost faith in Worcester County District Attorney Joseph Early Jr. and his team. Molly’s parents and sister...

www.necn.com

 

[somequestions]

It was probably inevitable that at some point that the family would want new investigators to look at the case. It is hard to criticize the police in this case because it looks like they followed the most logical leads, but maybe a fresh look at the case by different investigators would help.

If it was the man sitting in the white car that Molly Bish's mother saw the day before the abduction, then by now he could be in his 70's or 80's. Maybe he is no longer around?

I have to assume police cleared simple suspects like the sand truck driver or the parks commissioner. If I were an investigator in Molly Bish's case that is what I would have done just to make sure I did not miss something simple. If it was some stranger sitting in a white car who happened to see Molly Bish and then came up with a plan to abduct her the next day without any witnesses, then it could be anyone.

After you clear the people known to the case, where do you go in a case like this? Time matters in any case, and the way this case has played out over the years makes you understand why.

 

[Baddux]

It was probably inevitable that at some point that the family would want new investigators to look at the case. It is hard to criticize the police in this case because it looks like they followed the most logical leads, but maybe a fresh look at the case by different investigators would help.

If it was the man sitting in the white car that Molly Bish's mother saw the day before the abduction, then by now he could be in his 70's or 80's. Maybe he is no longer around?

I have to assume police cleared simple suspects like the sand truck driver or the parks commissioner. If I were an investigator in Molly Bish's case that is what I would have done just to make sure I did not miss something simple. If it was some stranger sitting in a white car who happened to see Molly Bish and then came up with a plan to abduct her the next day without any witnesses, then it could be anyone.

After you clear the people known to the case, where do you go in a case like this? Time matters in any case, and the way this case has played out over the years makes you understand why.

I had found an odd series of events and finds that I reported to LE in 2 months before they mentioned that Frank Sumner was a suspect. What I reported did not appear to be in that investigatory orbit.

I’m not sure I was taken entirely seriously. I don’t blame them for probably thinking people are like me are just idiots but the no match on the named suspect troubled me.

 

[somequestions]

The white car at and around Commins Pond will always be the variable in this case.

If the person who abducted Molly Bish from Commins Pond came back to the parking lot on Tuesday, June 27, 2000, then I do not understand this case at all. Here is a small breakdown of the Molly Bish case:

On Monday, June 26th, 2000, Molly Bish and her mother, Maggie, went to Commins Pond to drop Molly off for her lifeguard job. A man in a white car was there sitting around smoking a cigarette. Molly's mother felt uneasy about this man being there so she decided to walk over to where Molly was setting up for her lifeguard job that day. Molly's mother, Maggie, walked back to their car only to still see this man sitting there in his car in the parking lot. She pretended she was organizing things in her car until the man in the white car pulled out and left. During this entire exchange Maggie had made good eye contact with the man in the white car.

The next day, Tuesday June 27th, 2000, Molly and her mother again went back to Commins Pond, but since there was no white car in the parking lot this time, her mother dropped her off and left. There may or may not have been a sand truck there delivering sand for the beach. This sand truck driver said a white car had been in the Commins Pond Parking lot only a few minutes before Molly and her mother arrived that day.

This is where this case really throws me off: the white car returning the day of the abduction before 10 am.
Why? The timing suggests the white car was there only a few minutes before 10 am that morning. Even if the sand truck had not been there, was the driver of the white car really going to sit in the parking lot and stare down her mother again before deciding to commit the abduction? If the person in the white car saw the sand truck as a potential witness and left, once they go back over the hill up Commins Pond Road to leave they cannot see the beach parking lot so they would have no idea how long that sand truck is going to continue to be there as a potential "witness" to the abduction, even if they did drive over to Commins Pond Cemetery to approach Molly Bish from that area. Maybe the sand truck driver stays there for half an hour? How long does the average person think it takes to unload a dump truck full of sand into a beach parking lot? It had to be the beach parking lot and not the beach itself the sand was dumped or else the sand truck driver would have had a clear view of the potential abduction.

I always got the impression from Molly Bish's mother that on June 26th she stayed out on the beach with Molly talking with her for at least a few minutes. I could never understand why this abductor in the white car would plan the abduction for 10 am? Why not 10:15 am or 10:30 am so they could make sure her mother was gone no matter which area, Commins Pond beach parking lot, or St. Paul's Cemetery, the abductor chooses to approach her from. But we know Molly Bish never made the two-way radio call in that morning to police? I am sure that is one of the first things people wanted to know to establish a possible timeline of her disappearance. Would she wait over 15 minutes to do that? When was she trained to make that two-way radio call to check in with police?

This abductor in the white car really had great and lucky timing to be able to pull off this abduction. I know people will read this and respond that the fact of the matter is that on Tuesday, June 27, 2000, Molly Bish's mother did not go out onto the beach and spend time with Molly so the timing does not matter.

But she could have.

 

[Baddux]

The white car at and around Commins Pond will always be the variable in this case.

If the person who abducted Molly Bish from Commins Pond came back to the parking lot on Tuesday, June 27, 2000, then I do not understand this case at all. Here is a small breakdown of the Molly Bish case:

On Monday, June 26th, 2000, Molly Bish and her mother, Maggie, went to Commins Pond to drop Molly off for her lifeguard job. A man in a white car was there sitting around smoking a cigarette. Molly's mother felt uneasy about this man being there so she decided to walk over to where Molly was setting up for her lifeguard job that day. Molly's mother, Maggie, walked back to their car only to still see this man sitting there in his car in the parking lot. She pretended she was organizing things in her car until the man in the white car pulled out and left. During this entire exchange Maggie had made good eye contact with the man in the white car.

The next day, Tuesday June 27th, 2000, Molly and her mother again went back to Commins Pond, but since there was no white car in the parking lot this time, her mother dropped her off and left. There may or may not have been a sand truck there delivering sand for the beach. This sand truck driver said a white car had been in the Commins Pond Parking lot only a few minutes before Molly and her mother arrived that day.

This is where this case really throws me off: the white car returning the day of the abduction before 10 am.
Why? The timing suggests the white car was there only a few minutes before 10 am that morning. Even if the sand truck had not been there, was the driver of the white car really going to sit in the parking lot and stare down her mother again before deciding to commit the abduction? If the person in the white car saw the sand truck as a potential witness and left, once they go back over the hill up Commins Pond Road to leave they cannot see the beach parking lot so they would have no idea how long that sand truck is going to continue to be there as a potential "witness" to the abduction, even if they did drive over to Commins Pond Cemetery to approach Molly Bish from that area. Maybe the sand truck driver stays there for half an hour? How long does the average person think it takes to unload a dump truck full of sand into a beach parking lot? It had to be the beach parking lot and not the beach itself the sand was dumped or else the sand truck driver would have had a clear view of the potential abduction.

I always got the impression from Molly Bish's mother that on June 26th she stayed out on the beach with Molly talking with her for at least a few minutes. I could never understand why this abductor in the white car would plan the abduction for 10 am? Why not 10:15 am or 10:30 am so they could make sure her mother was gone no matter which area, Commins Pond beach parking lot, or St. Paul's Cemetery, the abductor chooses to approach her from. But we know Molly Bish never made the two-way radio call in that morning to police? I am sure that is one of the first things people wanted to know to establish a possible timeline of her disappearance. Would she wait over 15 minutes to do that? When was she trained to make that two-way radio call to check in with police?

This abductor in the white car really had great and lucky timing to be able to pull off this abduction. I know people will read this and respond that the fact of the matter is that on Tuesday, June 27, 2000, Molly Bish's mother did not go out onto the beach and spend time with Molly so the timing does not matter.

But she could have.

You bring up interesting points. I think some of the reason these things don't make sense is that the person responsible for the crime was more lucky than intelligent. It is possible this was just an opportunist type of thing. Guy shows up just randomly in the parking lot to chill and smoke and sees a female he likes the looks of. Ends up coming back the next day and grabbing her. Maybe no plan per se.

 

[somequestions]

You bring up interesting points. I think some of the reason these things don't make sense is that the person responsible for the crime was more lucky than intelligent. It is possible this was just an opportunist type of thing. Guy shows up just randomly in the parking lot to chill and smoke and sees a female he likes the looks of. Ends up coming back the next day and grabbing her. Maybe no plan per se.

I think you are correct in that most of the time there is not a plan. The reason I do not think the man in the white car came back to the parking lot on June 27, 2000, to abduct Molly Bish is because of the timing. I got the impression the white car did not show up in the Commins Pond Parking lot until only a few minutes before 10 am. This would be way too close to Molly Bish and her mother arriving at the pond and I do not think the abductor would want to get into another staring contest with her mother or even be seen after the day before. However, if the car had shown up and parked at 9:50 or 9:45 am and the abductor made sure to be out of the car and down the path to the beach area to wait for Molly Bish, that would make more sense. Molly's mother would only see a white car in the parking lot and with swim lessons that day she probably would have assumed it was a parent or swimmer who arrived a little early.

I agree that it really could be anyone. After the Delphi case being solved, maybe it was a neighbor who lived close by who was missed as a person of interest all these years?

When I look at the "crime scene"(the beach chair setup), the only thing that looks off to me is the order.
I wonder what a lifeguard radio check-in with police consists of at Commins Pond? Since Molly Bish I am sure there have been other lifeguards who worked at Commins Pond. What does the radio check-in consist of? How long does it take? In the course of a normal lifeguard routine, is it something done at the beginning before setting up the pond and the lifeguard area for swimming?

I thought maybe the reason the lifeguard stuff was set up, but the radio check-in with police was not made was because she was talking to someone, but in a very casual manner while she setup her lifeguard stuff that day.

Molly Bish certainly was not fully set up to lifeguard that day. She still needed to remove her outer clothes to put in the backpack, put on her whistle, and make the two-way radio check-in with police. I wonder if she had already visited this mysterious "shed" on the Commins Pond beach property because all the stuff out at the scene seems like a lot for one person to carry by themselves.

But I agree whoever that person was she may have been talking to could be anyone.