MA MA - Molly Bish, 16, Warren, 27 Jun 2000

[Yemelyan]

1. I agree it is speculation as to how the actual abduction took place. I would want to ask the other lifeguards that worked there the question, "If someone came down the hill behind the beach at 10 am on a Tuesday morning would that seem out of place to you?" From the pictures and videos I have seen of Commins Pond Beach area it seems very secluded. Maybe Molly Bish simply did not notice someone approaching from the hill?

Snipped by me to address this point.

Why does the abductor have to come down the hill behind the beach after Molly arrives? Is it not possible the person comes down before she arrives and simply conceals himself somewhere nearby? Then rushes out once he sees if she is alone, perhaps then deploying a ruse to get her to come with him.

I also think it's possible that he made her leave her shoes behind in order to keep more control of the situation and prevent her from running. So we have to be careful when making assumptions or inferences like "her shoes were already off so that means....".

 

[Joshw2022]

I will try and provide some perspective from what I have read or seen in various photos and videos about the case.

1. I agree it is speculation as to how the actual abduction took place. I would want to ask the other lifeguards that worked there the question, "If someone came down the hill behind the beach at 10 am on a Tuesday morning would that seem out of place to you?" From the pictures and videos I have seen of Commins Pond Beach area it seems very secluded. Maybe Molly Bish simply did not notice someone approaching from the hill?

2. On the day of the abduction, police used scent dogs which tracked up the hill to the path in the cemetery. However, a sand truck driver who was there at Commins Pond parking lot around the same time as Molly Bish arrived for her shift said a white car had come into the Commins Pond parking lot shortly before Molly and her mother arrived. I could never understand why the white car would do this, even if the sand truck driver had not been there that day. As for the sand truck driver, I cannot figure out whether he was still there when Molly Bish was dropped off or if he had already left the Commins Pond parking lot before Molly Bish got out of the car to walk to her post or possibly to some storage shred on the property(to get lifeguard things I assume).

3. I think you need to watch some video of the actual Commins Pond area. Satellite view can be deceiving as the actual beach area does not seem like it is very large. As for where she would sit, you are generally taught as a lifeguard to sit in a place on the beach where you can visually scan the water for any emergency situation. Asking other lifeguards where she generally set up her lifeguard stuff on the beach would also help.
I think I can offer a little more perspective as to your theory about the abduction. According to 48 Hours Mystery program, there was a picture of the lawn chair she would have sat in. But when the picture was taken, it looked like there was some binder type item in the chair. This makes me wonder if she ever sat down. Also, if you look closely at the towel she draped over the chair, this lawn chair had webbing design so I would have thought the towel would have been more flush against the webbing if someone had been sitting in the lawn chair, but it is hard to tell. But maybe a parent put that binder item in the lawn chair too when they were acting as the lifeguard on the beach?

Another reason I do not think Molly Bish would have sat down yet is because she had not made her two-way radio check in call to the police department. I do not know Commins Pond beach protocols, but my guess is this radio check with the police was to ensure there was communication in case of an emergency. This would be an important part of procedure. How important was this police radio check-in at Commins Pond? I do not know, but am speculating based on what I know about lifeguarding. From everything I have read, Molly Bish never checked in with police over the two-way radio that morning.

It is difficult to come up with theories or ideas when you do not know information or have the correct information. For example, the path where the car parked in the cemetery looks very narrow so I wanted to know if police ever found any sort of tire tracks? They had to have walked that cemetery looking for any sort of evidence from a possible vehicle if they thought she was abducted into a white car. I would also think they had to have taken pictures.

I do not know what to think of Molly Bish's abduction. It could be anyone who knew she was a lifeguard at Commins Pond or saw her at Commins Pond.

You make some great points. In response to the above:

1 - I think you're correct that it would be important to speak to any other lifeguards to establish this. However, I do know Molly's sister has said publicly that the majority of people in the town did not know the swimming spot/trails were there. The exception being a few unsavoury characters (she describes them as mainly teenagers smoking weed or similar), or those who used it as a swimming spot. I would suspect that it would be relatively unusual to use the trail from the cemetery unless you were coming from one of the houses up there...otherwise you'd use the main car park.

2 - The sand truck driver was still present when Molly was dropped off. Her mother later said that she actually felt more safe leaving Molly on the beach because the driver present when she dropped her off (unknown if there was a passenger or not), because it made her feel that there were actually people working/going about their business. Therefore, she cannot have been abducted via the main car park. Coupled with the scent followed by the dogs I think it's very likely that she was removed via the cemetery path. I'm going to do some more digging into the car situation...I'm not entirely sure that the 3 sightings of the white vehicle are actually the same vehicle, but I would agree that it's odd for the vehicle to drive in and turn around/leave.

3 - You make some really good points about the lifeguard situation. I've watched a couple of videos of the scene itself, however, it's not clear exactly where she was sitting. In any case, we know that by the time any photos were taken the chair/other items in and around it had been disturbed by many people because the police took hours to seal it off as a crime scene. Therefore, it's difficult to draw much of an inference from the scene itself.

You're correct that Molly did not check in with police that morning. It could be that she sat down and was relaxing for a few minutes prior to starting, or, as you say, that she was in the process of setting everything up. It's really difficult without seeing the photos and having an actual preserved crime scene to establish the facts here.

One last thing - you mention the path...I do recall reading an account from someone who has been to the actual site that, despite how narrow it looks in the photos, you could literally fit a truck down parts of the path due to it being so wide at the time.

 

[Joshw2022]

Snipped by me to address this point.

Why does the abductor have to come down the hill behind the beach after Molly arrives? Is it not possible the person comes down before she arrives and simply conceals himself somewhere nearby? Then rushes out once he sees if she is alone, perhaps then deploying a ruse to get her to come with him.

I also think it's possible that he made her leave her shoes behind in order to keep more control of the situation and prevent her from running. So we have to be careful when making assumptions or inferences like "her shoes were already off so that means....".

Hi Yemelyan,

I think either theory is possible. I do get the feeling that he planned to watch Molly as she arrived. He was likely prepared and wanted to know that she was on the beach and alone. However, it obviously took him a minute or two to show himself because Molly had time to get (mostly) set up for the day before he approached her.

In terms of the shoes, I agree one has to be careful when making assumptions or inferences, but I do think her shoes were likely already off (just my opinion!). The suspect would have wanted to get Molly away from public view and onto the path as quickly as possible, and telling her to take her shoes off would have delayed this. Also, from memory I believe her water bottle was in one of her shoes (correct me if I'm wrong), as if it had been placed there. Again, it's possible that the mother who came along later tidied up Molly's things and put the shoes neatly together, but it isn't mentioned anywhere that the scene was messy/untidy when the parents arrived. It was as if she just up and left. Her sister also pointed out that, whilst Molly did not generally like to be barefoot, the beach itself was very soft and that even the path up to the cemetery was soft enough that it wouldn't have cut your feet...so it's plausible that Molly simply took her shoes off to be more comfortable. Again, all just my opinion.

 

[Yemelyan]

Hi Yemelyan,

I think either theory is possible. I do get the feeling that he planned to watch Molly as she arrived. He was likely prepared and wanted to know that she was on the beach and alone. However, it obviously took him a minute or two to show himself because Molly had time to get (mostly) set up for the day before he approached her.

In terms of the shoes, I agree one has to be careful when making assumptions or inferences, but I do think her shoes were likely already off (just my opinion!). The suspect would have wanted to get Molly away from public view and onto the path as quickly as possible, and telling her to take her shoes off would have delayed this. Also, from memory I believe her water bottle was in one of her shoes (correct me if I'm wrong), as if it had been placed there. Again, it's possible that the mother who came along later tidied up Molly's things and put the shoes neatly together, but it isn't mentioned anywhere that the scene was messy/untidy when the parents arrived. It was as if she just up and left. Her sister also pointed out that, whilst Molly did not generally like to be barefoot, the beach itself was very soft and that even the path up to the cemetery was soft enough that it wouldn't have cut your feet...so it's plausible that Molly simply took her shoes off to be more comfortable. Again, all just my opinion.

Thanks for your thoughts. My post was less about which scenario is correct and more about questioning why we think the way we do about the crime. Undoubtedly there are things the investigators know about the flow of the abduction that they haven't made public. Yes, anything is possible and I get that we have little else to discuss but I don't think we should get locked into any particular scenario or assume investigators haven't looked into certain aspects just because we haven't heard what their results were.

As you probably know better than most, not every crime is carried out perfectly. Lots of times the offender makes odd decisions because they panic or emotions run high. Or they just get lucky. With a case like this one, I believe very strongly that the element of fantasy was important to the offender; IMO he wasn't just thinking how to abduct someone perfectly and not get caught. He was thinking about how he wanted to feel when he did it.

We can wonder things like "how come Molly didn't notice someone coming down the hill at 10am" but maybe the answer is, that's not how the abduction took place. Maybe he was already down the hill and concealed near an outbuilding when she arrived. We don't know - though investigators might. That was, I guess, my main point. I think you are relatively new to this thread - welcome.

 

[lonewanderer]

Snipped by me to address this point.

Why does the abductor have to come down the hill behind the beach after Molly arrives? Is it not possible the person comes down before she arrives and simply conceals himself somewhere nearby? Then rushes out once he sees if she is alone, perhaps then deploying a ruse to get her to come with him.

I also think it's possible that he made her leave her shoes behind in order to keep more control of the situation and prevent her from running. So we have to be careful when making assumptions or inferences like "her shoes were already off so that means....".

It could mean a couple of things.

Sometimes shoes are left behind because they are pulled off while an assailant is trying to grab the victim. Especially if she was in the ground trying to kick them away.

I read a case recently where one man killed another man and threw his body in the river. He intentionally left the mans clothing and shoes on the riverbank in an attempt to corroborate his story that the man took a swim. The clothing and shoes were later thrown in the water by a gang of young boys.

 

[somequestions]

Snipped by me to address this point.

Why does the abductor have to come down the hill behind the beach after Molly arrives? Is it not possible the person comes down before she arrives and simply conceals himself somewhere nearby? Then rushes out once he sees if she is alone, perhaps then deploying a ruse to get her to come with him.

I also think it's possible that he made her leave her shoes behind in order to keep more control of the situation and prevent her from running. So we have to be careful when making assumptions or inferences like "her shoes were already off so that means....".

I agree that there is no way to know where the abductor was located at Commins Pond when Molly Bish arrived. The abductor could have been anywhere waiting.

The part about Molly Bish's sandals already being off is my own opinion. But we all are different. I cannot speak for what Molly Bish would have done regarding the sandals. I would not mind knowing what the other lifeguards thought of her abduction if only to gain some perspective.

If I were the lifeguard at Commins Pond, I would not have taken my sandals off until after I had made the two-way radio call to check in with the police. If I were the lifeguard, I probably would have moved my stuff up closer to the water, but maybe Molly Bish was worried about the small children trampling on her stuff? Maybe the sand at Commins Beach does not have many sticks in it or maybe it is not that hot? If I were the lifeguard enjoying my cold water bottle I would not stand in the hot sand but walk along the shore of the beach letting the water cool my feet.

 

[somequestions]

About Molly Bish's sandals, what I meant was that if someone knocked her out somehow and tried to either carry or drag her body up the hill to get it out of sight, her sandals may have fallen off.

But there that water bottle is in the right sandal. It looks like maybe a decent amount of water had been drank too. In the pictures it is hard to tell, but the picture on the episode of Disappeared makes it look like condensation had formed inside the top of the plastic bottle, probably from the heat.

The main question that I am sure could be asked would be that even if that scenario happened, why would any stranger abductor care about making it look like she took off her sandals? Maybe they also knock over the lawn chair and the first aid kit while in a struggle or her sandals fall off? Why would any of that matter to the abductor? The abductor just needs to get control of her and get her out of there as quickly as possible to the white car waiting on the cemetery path.

Because of where the water bottle ended up, that seems like it is the one scenario that could not have happened. That would mean then that the abduction had to have taken place after she took off her sandals, but before she could close the first aid kit or make the two-way radio check-in call.

 

[Joshw2022]

About Molly Bish's sandals, what I meant was that if someone knocked her out somehow and tried to either carry or drag her body up the hill to get it out of sight, her sandals may have fallen off.

But there that water bottle is in the right sandal. It looks like maybe a decent amount of water had been drank too. In the pictures it is hard to tell, but the picture on the episode of Disappeared makes it look like condensation had formed inside the top of the plastic bottle, probably from the heat.

The main question that I am sure could be asked would be that even if that scenario happened, why would any stranger abductor care about making it look like she took off her sandals? Maybe they also knock over the lawn chair and the first aid kit while in a struggle or her sandals fall off? Why would any of that matter to the abductor? The abductor just needs to get control of her and get her out of there as quickly as possible to the white car waiting on the cemetery path.

Because of where the water bottle ended up, that seems like it is the one scenario that could not have happened. That would mean then that the abduction had to have taken place after she took off her sandals, but before she could close the first aid kit or make the two-way radio check-in call.

I agree in terms of the timing. It makes sense that he approaches/starts to approach her almost immediately after he sees her on the beach. So, IMO she's either finished setting up and is sitting down, or is about to finish setting up, when she is approached. I think Molly is the one who took her sandles off.

Also, I don't suppose you have any links to the Disappeared episode? I'm struggling to watch it from here in the UK!
Thanks

 

[somequestions]

I agree in terms of the timing. It makes sense that he approaches/starts to approach her almost immediately after he sees her on the beach. So, IMO she's either finished setting up and is sitting down, or is about to finish setting up, when she is approached. I think Molly is the one who took her sandles off.

Also, I don't suppose you have any links to the Disappeared episode? I'm struggling to watch it from here in the UK!
Thanks

The best I could find was a link to program on Investigation Discovery tv site, but that is not allowed to be linked here. Maybe someone else can help you out on this or you might find it linked somewhere earlier in the thread?

I remember the title of the episode was Murky Waters from program Disappeared. This was filmed back in 2010.