VERDICT WATCH MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #14

[KSwizzle]

Does anyone have any thought about what have caused JOK's head wound? I keep thinking about the replaced metal basement doors- just because they are heavy and awkward in general.... IMO. On another topic, I think some people want to convict to avenge the death, but the physical evidence still does not seem to match the charges. IMO.

I think Dr Rentschler the one FBI hired expert said it best when he said and I'm paraphrasing, we literally don't know how he got it, it could be anything, asphalt, concrete, a baseball bat etc, there's not enough evidence to say what happened to his head, reasonable doubt

 

[keek]

what are you sure. the jury should not be shown; maybe you are referring to brother of JO

Oh, no, the one a reporter in court spoke of when describing their behavior, that guy. I SO know the brother and I always fear he will lunge. I cannot imagine what this verdict will bring out, hoping for sure tomorrow morn.

 

[TristanP]

For me it was the piece of glass on Karen's bumper that matched a random piece of glass at the Albert's house found by Michael Proctor.

I can think of no reason that those two pieces of glass (neither of which matched to John's drinking glass) should match each other unless someone was planting evidence.

Hmmmm, I wonder how that could have possibly happened....we know Michael Proctor certainly had no desire to "find" proof that Karen was guilty. He was full of integrity.

 

[turaj]

Oh, no, the one a reporter in court spoke of when describing their behavior, that guy. I SO know the brother and I always fear he will lunge. I cannot imagine what this verdict will bring out, hoping for sure tomorrow morn.

John's brother does always look like he is ready to lunge at the defense table. I noted JO's father was there today....this trial is killing him.

 

[keek]

they just got dismissed a little early

I am just rushy and should not be but I bet it is one person maybe not understanding some things>

 

[whitelilac]

Hoping they reached a verdict, decided to quit early so they can make it out of the crowded courthouse area on time for whatever appointment the juror needed to get to, so they can come back in the morning to fill out the paperwork!! How's that for optimism?

Yes. And reading the verdict and polling each juror does take time. The juror needed to leave.
We will see tomorrow, if there's no verdict in the morning and deliberations go on into the next day....then there will be concern.

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

They may just want to go over everything before submitting a final decision. There was a month worth of information so I'm willing to assume they're going to need more than a day to do that. JMO

 

[Kittybunny]

Newbie here! Just joined and looking forward to enjoying this forum and reading people's opinions. Patiently waiting for the jury to reach a verdict. 8 hours in now, sure hope this isn't a hung jury. Looks like there maybe 1 or more jurors that don't agree with the majority. I have gone back and forth on this case. Guilty or not guilty, that is the question.

Hi and welcome! In my opinion, a hung jury is a win for the defense. With the looming FBI investigation, the CW would be crazy to attempt to re-try this case. Of course, I think it was crazy that they went to trial in the first place, and that the Judge refused to delay the case, but what do I know.

Since I'm usually on the Guilty side, and typically Not Guilty verdicts take longer to come back, should I be nervous? But then this is another one of those cases where the jury probably has a LOT to talk about and the case did go on, forever and ever and ever...

Well, just saw that whatever the eventual decision, it won't come today. Boo!

 

[Spectrix]

Does anyone have any thought about what have caused JOK's head wound? I keep thinking about the replaced metal basement doors- just because they are heavy and awkward in general.... IMO.

It's a peculiar wound and would have required an enormous amount of force to inflict that amount of damage. He may have been struck very hard with something like a baseball bat, or pushed backwards and struck his head on Gym equipment in the basement.

 

[kittythehare]

 

[TristanP]

dbm - duplicate

 

[TristanP]

someone commented on a talk show that this term "blizzard" has been over used for the conditions that night at that time. This is MA.. and they are used to snow...this was far from a full out blizzard.

I've posted a screenshot before indicating the pattern of precip that day. It was lightly snowing and about 2-3" on the ground by 6 am, a lot of which had blown around and caused some areas to be deeper.

The majority of the 18 or more inches received that day happened after 9 am.

The wind was definitely blizzard level at 6 am, up to 40 mph gusts IIRC, but the snow wasn't dumping on them yet.

 

[sunspun]

Because of the inverted Sally Port video, it cannot be argued that there wasn't at least some deliberate effort by law enforcement to alter or otherwise distort evidence in order to frame Karen Read.

We can argue about the extent of the dishonesty. We can argue about how many people were involved, and who exactly those individuals may have been and what may have motivated them. But there was at least some effort to alter evidence to frame Karen Read, and the inverted Sally Port video is proof of that.

1162 Key Cycle fabrication was it for me.

The defense proved (actually, proved is overstating it, since it was right there in writing for all to see), so I'll say, the defense pointed out that the whole top-level primary charge KR was accused of simply did not happen. They accused her of backing up so many feet at such a speed, with the purpose and the result of hitting JO with intent to kill. That's what they accused her of. That is why she is here. But that one little page of evidence, the one showing all the key cycles of her vehicle and the events associated with each, shows in plain sight that the key cycle associated with the infamous fast backup event, happened only ONE time! And it was at a time when KR was nowhere near her vehicle and could not possibly be near her vehicle, since LE had already towed it away and taken it in to the Canton PD as evidence in the investigation!

And so what that means is that KR never did this fast backup herself. Her vehicle recorded it only one time. And it was at a time when Proctor and other officers were in possession of her vehicle. I'm sure they would say they did it while testing it, trying to recreate the accident. Or perhaps LE did it purposefully, in just the exact way that the CW planned to (and did) state in the courtroom that this was how they had concluded KR had murdered JO.

We could wonder which came first... did the CW read in that report that the vehicle had backed up that many feet at that speed, and saw that it happened sometime near the time of the incident, so they worked that data into their claims against KR, just because it "sort of" fit, because it sounded good? Because it COULD have happened like that? (Never mind whether it really did or not...)

Or did the CW confer with LE, to agree on a plausible-sounding 2nd-degree-murder charge scenario, and once they decided on the numbers, tasked Proctor with carrying out that specific maneuver in the Lexus, SO THAT when the CW made this claim in court, they could show these exact numbers were there on the report, as "solid" proof that it really happened? (Never mind that the report also shows it happened AFTER the vehicle had been seized and was in the possession of LE...)

I expect this will be investigated in one of the FBI cases, but we may never hear the truth. But it makes the case against KR completely fall apart, imo. It was always hard enough to imagine (for me and plenty of other people apparently) that KR could possibly have successfully backed up at that rate of speed, on a curve (!), and in icy snowy conditions, and in the dark (after midnight!), not to mention that JO could possibly have stood there in place in the road for the time that would have taken, and never moved to get out of her way and just let her run into him (and why was he in the road anyway??), and ALSO not to mention that all this took place while MULTIPLE party guests were watching the Lexus at that exact time, specifically watching for JO to exit the vehicle and walk to the house, while still others were parked RIGHT behind the Lexus and/or driving RIGHT past it, all at the same time this supposedly happened! Yes, all that was very hard to believe. But now we find out it simply could not have happened, if we trust her vehicle telemetrics or whatever they call all the data gleaned from her vehicle computer under investigation. And I do. Could they possibly have thought no one would notice? Maybe they were really just that desperate, in the face of such a dearth of real evidence against her, they just HOPED this would get by. And with juries, you just never know, maybe it will. Thankfully, it was only one of a multitude of problems with the CW case though.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Followed this one silently. Gobsmacked at so many aspects of how this case has been handled. Not least the fact that KR is on trial with little to no evidence. The voicemails she left him and the 53 phone calls indicated to me, a frantic spouse fearing their partner was with another woman, after the Aruba incident I can believe that KR had trust issues IMO. People can sit and say ‘she freaked out over nothing, just giving a friend a hug’ - but having been the woman with insecurities, suspicions, lack of trust. Walking down a hallway and witnessing woman who is not a relative hugging your partner. Would set alarm bells ringing. It turns out it was just an innocent hug and KR got the wrong end of the stick. But I can see why she initially freaked out. If you’ve ever had difficulties with trust, maybe cheated on in a past relationship(?), many women would react the same. Especially if you are of a certain personality type. We don’t know about KR’s previous relationships. If you’ve ever been told before by an ex that a woman (or man) is just a friend and then found out they were not, it’s easy to imagine reacting in a similar way IMO. Doesn’t make her a murderer or mean she’d hit him with her car. Having that being presented as ‘evidence’ in this case, putting the woman aswell as her sister/friend (I can’t remember if it was her friend or sister now) on the stand to speak about that which happened months before, showed how far down the CW scraped the barrel to pur forward an image of having such a solid case it’s taken all these weeks to present the evidence.

Kind of like confusing the jury IMO, it looks like they had tons of evidence if you look at how many witnesses they put on. But when you really look back and think about it, how many were actually important witnesses with true facts about this case and not just opinions?

The fact that the CW were allowed to have someone who is not a medical examiner (I believe he was an officer) testify to how they believe JOK’s injuries were caused amongst other things which were actually just their opinions - not expert opinions. Then restricted what defense witnesses with actual credentials could talk about, really rubs me the wrong way.

The defense actually presented their case just right IMO, there was no confusion for the jury. No discussion of weather for one! No random witnesses who seemingly have no ties to the case. Just qualified experts who should have been able to give their full opinions IMO instead they were restricted. That’s something that as a juror would stick out to me. Jackson was spot on with his ‘look here not there’ speech about the prosecution case. IMO it was purposely made to be so confusing because the actual evidence is so weak.

People will say ‘but the voicemails’ - that doesn’t prove nor disprove KR hit JOK. Neither does the Aruba incident. Actually if anything, to me it suggests KR believed him to be alive and well and just ignoring her calls that evening IMO.

I could go on and on. Those solo cups were the point when I really thought ‘what on earth is this?’ I still considered that maybe she did do it because the idea of a cover up seemed so far fetched. Then the Proctor texts, the inverted time skipping video, the suspicious accounts of that evening, disappearing dog, and much much more, by the end had me thinking ‘oh my god, this actually COULD be a cover up’. It’s not far fetched atall when considered as a whole, the jury consider the totality of the evidence.

IMO the totality of the prosecution evidence really amounts to a big nothing burger. Yes she was drunk, and COULD have hit him with her car. But that’s not enough for a conviction, you can’t only believe she could have. You have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. That means you have to be sure, very sure, something you’d stake your home on. Not absolutely certain to the point you’d bet your life on it, or that there is absolutely no possibility whatsoever that she didn’t do it. But sure enough that you can say ‘there is a tiny tiny chance that she didn’t but we believe that chance to be so small, that for her to be innocent we’d have more chance of winning the lottery’ personally I think the defense presented enough evidence from their few witnesses that have me believing there is a reasonable chance that JOK was not hit by KR’s car. The defense experts presented some convincing evidence that it wasn’t KR’s car that hit JOK, this evidence was from experts aswell as the impartial accident reconstruction guys.

The fact that the accident reconstruction experts who were completely impartial and unbiased believed that KR’s car didn’t hit and kill JOK is extremely convincing testimony. The jury only know that these were hired by an outside agency, maybe some have guessed it’s the FBI, maybe not. But their testimony would be the one thing that would make me unable to commit to a Guilty verdict in this case. I think that testimony provided enough doubt that I couldn’t honestly and truthfully sign a Guilty verdict form in this case.

Just to add, to an already very long post so I’ll keep this as short as possible. I’ve followed many many trials over the years and the amount of deliberation time so far is minimal. I wouldn’t be worried about a hold out or hung jury yet. Bear in mind these jurors have been unable to discuss the case together for so long, they likely have so much to say. 12 people all wanting to put their point across, all wanting to have their say and give their thoughts. For a jury to come to a unanimous verdict in this case after careful consideration, it’s going to take a while, much more than the few hours they’ve had so far. Look at how many layers there are, possible cover up? Possible misconduct by an officer? Possible jealous girlfriend? Possible drunken rage? Possible accident? Possible dog attack? They have so much to talk about and could be there a while. Even if they are all agreed immediately - which is very unlikely in this case - then even still most of the times jurors will and should talk about the most convincing evidence for them or what is giving them pause. It’s only been a few hours total. I wouldn’t be wondering about a hung jury until the end of Friday personally even then I wouldn’t be too concerned. All JMO though.

Sorry this was so long. I’ve kept quiet and just watched until now so have lots on my mind!

MOO

 

[kittythehare]

They may just want to go over everything before submitting a final decision. There was a month worth of information so I'm willing to assume they're going to need more than a day to do that. JMO

I'm expecting it to run a few days. If it goes past a week, it could be any length of time, however.

 

[turaj]

I'm expecting it to run a few days. If it goes past a week, it could be any length of time, however.

I admit to being surprised. It just seems so simple to me.

 

[kittythehare]

I admit to being surprised. It just seems so simple to me.

It's not clearly worded.. that's a problem for 12 people for one thing..

 

[keek]

It's not clearly worded.. that's a problem for 12 people for one thing..

As long as it is clearly now understood as they do have a lot to unpack but I agree, evidence points to lieing by the court visitors there a hundred diff ways and deletions etc. though it is on KR this trial, for now.

 

[JerseyWasHome2]

Followed this one silently. Gobsmacked at so many aspects of how this case has been handled. Not least the fact that KR is on trial with little to no evidence. The voicemails she left him and the 53 phone calls indicated to me, a frantic spouse fearing their partner was with another woman, after the Aruba incident I can believe that KR had trust issues IMO. People can sit and say ‘she freaked out over nothing, just giving a friend a hug’ - but having been the woman with insecurities, suspicions, lack of trust. Walking down a hallway and witnessing woman who is not a relative hugging your partner. Would set alarm bells ringing. It turns out it was just an innocent hug and KR got the wrong end of the stick. But I can see why she initially freaked out. If you’ve ever had difficulties with trust, maybe cheated on in a past relationship(?), many women would react the same. Especially if you are of a certain personality type. We don’t know about KR’s previous relationships. If you’ve ever been told before by an ex that a woman (or man) is just a friend and then found out they were not, it’s easy to imagine reacting in a similar way IMO. Doesn’t make her a murderer or mean she’d hit him with her car. Having that being presented as ‘evidence’ in this case, putting the woman aswell as her sister/friend (I can’t remember if it was her friend or sister now) on the stand to speak about that which happened months before, showed how far down the CW scraped the barrel to pur forward an image of having such a solid case it’s taken all these weeks to present the evidence.

Kind of like confusing the jury IMO, it looks like they had tons of evidence if you look at how many witnesses they put on. But when you really look back and think about it, how many were actually important witnesses with true facts about this case and not just opinions?

The fact that the CW were allowed to have someone who is not a medical examiner (I believe he was an officer) testify to how they believe JOK’s injuries were caused amongst other things which were actually just their opinions - not expert opinions. Then restricted what defense witnesses with actual credentials could talk about, really rubs me the wrong way.

The defense actually presented their case just right IMO, there was no confusion for the jury. No discussion of weather for one! No random witnesses who seemingly have no ties to the case. Just qualified experts who should have been able to give their full opinions IMO instead they were restricted. That’s something that as a juror would stick out to me. Jackson was spot on with his ‘look here not there’ speech about the prosecution case. IMO it was purposely made to be so confusing because the actual evidence is so weak.

People will say ‘but the voicemails’ - that doesn’t prove nor disprove KR hit JOK. Neither does the Aruba incident. Actually if anything, to me it suggests KR believed him to be alive and well and just ignoring her calls that evening IMO.

I could go on and on. Those solo cups were the point when I really thought ‘what on earth is this?’ I still considered that maybe she did do it because the idea of a cover up seemed so far fetched. Then the Proctor texts, the inverted time skipping video, the suspicious accounts of that evening, disappearing dog, and much much more, by the end had me thinking ‘oh my god, this actually COULD be a cover up’. It’s not far fetched atall when considered as a whole, the jury consider the totality of the evidence.

IMO the totality of the prosecution evidence really amounts to a big nothing burger. Yes she was drunk, and COULD have hit him with her car. But that’s not enough for a conviction, you can’t only believe she could have. You have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. That means you have to be sure, very sure, something you’d stake your home on. Not absolutely certain to the point you’d bet your life on it, or that there is absolutely no possibility whatsoever that she didn’t do it. But sure enough that you can say ‘there is a tiny tiny chance that she didn’t but we believe that chance to be so small, that for her to be innocent we’d have more chance of winning the lottery’ personally I think the defense presented enough evidence from their few witnesses that have me believing there is a reasonable chance that JOK was not hit by KR’s car. The defense experts presented some convincing evidence that it wasn’t KR’s car that hit JOK, this evidence was from experts aswell as the impartial accident reconstruction guys.

The fact that the accident reconstruction experts who were completely impartial and unbiased believed that KR’s car didn’t hit and kill JOK is extremely convincing testimony. The jury only know that these were hired by an outside agency, maybe some have guessed it’s the FBI, maybe not. But their testimony would be the one thing that would make me unable to commit to a Guilty verdict in this case. I think that testimony provided enough doubt that I couldn’t honestly and truthfully sign a Guilty verdict form in this case.

Just to add, to an already very long post so I’ll keep this as short as possible. I’ve followed many many trials over the years and the amount of deliberation time so far is minimal. I wouldn’t be worried about a hold out or hung jury yet. Bear in mind these jurors have been unable to discuss the case together for so long, they likely have so much to say. 12 people all wanting to put their point across, all wanting to have their say and give their thoughts. For a jury to come to a unanimous verdict in this case after careful consideration, it’s going to take a while, much more than the few hours they’ve had so far. Look at how many layers there are, possible cover up? Possible misconduct by an officer? Possible jealous girlfriend? Possible drunken rage? Possible accident? Possible dog attack? They have so much to talk about and could be there a while. Even if they are all agreed immediately - which is very unlikely in this case - then even still most of the times jurors will and should talk about the most convincing evidence for them or what is giving them pause. It’s only been a few hours total. I wouldn’t be wondering about a hung jury until the end of Friday personally even then I wouldn’t be too concerned. All JMO though.

Sorry this was so long. I’ve kept quiet and just watched until now so have lots on my mind!

MOO

Excellent post! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I also think that her intoxication could have definitely added to the reason she called him so many times. Alcohol affects everyone differently and if she was already upset, it could amplify what may have been a more subdued reaction.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I admit to being surprised. It just seems so simple to me.

We’ve been able to freely talk about it. Read other people’s opinions, see what others have pointed out. For example when another WS member says ‘how can this be true when this person said something different’ we suddenly think ‘yes that’s right! How can that be true?’ And things like that help us form our opinion.

The jury haven’t been able to do that, they’ve heard the case once, haven’t been able to pause, rewind or rewatch certain testimony. Haven’t been able to turn to eachother and say ‘well that person didn’t say this happened’ half way through testimony. So it’s completely different for them. They only have their notes and perhaps small details that are pin pointed in their minds as important and haven’t been able to speak a single word about this case even though they’ve been sat together this whole time. It must be so frustrating so now they can finally talk and listen to eachother they have so much to go over and they can have those ‘oh yes that right, that does conflict with the testimony of that other person’ moments.

All MOO