MISTRIAL MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #17

[waldojabba]

G

This isn’t really a point to add, just a musing about at what point or what number of coincidences in a string of coincidences does it become illogical to be coincidence?

Gibbs
NCIS
There are no coincidences
Rule 39
JMO

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

In terms of the theory that JOK got into an altercation in the basement and injured his head there I wonder about what happened to BA’s exercise equipment after they moved out? Did they keep it? Throw it out or give it away? If they weren’t disposed of but were sold, kept or gifted to some one else I wonder if LE or the defense would be able to get a warrant or permission to do forensic testing on some of it? Sometimes DNA or forensic material could still stick or seep into stuff years later so I wonder if it could help rule that theory in or out or lend any insight into what happened to JOK.

Also, since Chloe is MIA I wonder if it is possible to track any of litter mates or parents or even other pups born to them and see if any have claws or bite marks or print outs made via xray or dental procedures are similar to Chloe’s and then compare those most similar to hers to them to lacerations on JOK’s arm? Or perhaps too if either of her kin that most closely resemble her in size, shape, claws and bite patterns have any history of biting or attacking others perhaps those records with other technology could be used to somehow make a comparison, or estimation, of Chloe’s bite and claw wounds and the ones found on JOK? Pictures of Chloe and her vet and vet dental records may also help in that regard? Just my own speculation

IIRC, JMcA said BA did not lock his front door which was able she was able to enter the house and alert him and her sister about what happened to John. I don’t remember why they didn’t lock the door but considering that Chloe was said to be wary of strangers and a guard dog why didn’t she meet JMcA at the front door when she entered the house? Why didn’t she bark at her or the sounds of sirens and crying when that door opened and the sound traveled inside? Does Chloe just sleep in their room all night?

Didn’t BA Jr say his father asked him that morning if he fed the dog and that he said no and apologized for not doing so? But how could he have let Chloe out if she was in the room with his parents room the entire time and came down with them and JMcA? Why would BA even have to ask his son that if Chloe was in the closet that whole time. Unless she wasn’t and she was free to walk around the house but in that case how did JMcA not see her when she entered? Why don’t we hear her on camera? Was that even a good time to let a protective dog that might bark at and scare the few first responders still investigating the property? Even if they had fence it still might have diverted LE’s attention.

IDK why but I guess that detail stood out to me because JOK was just transported to the hospital after being found severely injured in front of their home when that conversation but it was Chloe they talked about. Maybe it was just a trauma response.

 

[Seattle1]

Because it happened. The injuries lean more towards a fight than a hit and run with a car. I believe a fight started for whatever reason by someone who just happened to already be intoxicated and already be there in the basement when the 'other' group arrived and it got out of hand and now is a cover up. Look at the expert witness evidence and then listen to the 'vague' eyewitness statements. I started watching this trial not knowing any previous knowledge of the case or participants. I watched it like a juror. The testimonies, the atmosphere, the judge. It's right there along with the bias and intimidation.

In terms of the theory that JOK got into an altercation in the basement and injured his head there I wonder about what happened to BA’s exercise equipment after they moved out? Did they keep it? Throw it out or give it away? If they weren’t disposed of but were sold, kept or gifted to some one else I wonder if LE or the defense would be able to get a warrant or permission to do forensic testing on some of it? Sometimes DNA or forensic material could still stick or seep into stuff years later so I wonder if it could help rule that theory in or out or lend any insight into what happened to JOK.

When I view the evidence-- JOK's injuries, the science, top expert witnesses, and even the conspiracy theories, I think the defense has to keep coming back to the deadlock vote on Indictment 2 where ultimately, 9 jurors believed the CW proved Manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt.

IMO, at least half of the jurors (i.e., initial vote at 6-6 guilty) must have made up their minds that JOK was struck by KR's vehicle, as argued by the CW, even before the defense presented their case.

I don't think they gave any weight to the defense experts (regardless of their hire), the scientific recreation of the accident, nor the conspiracy theories. I can only explain this as they must have just stopped listening, and wanted to be done. In the end, jurors were also able to sway three more jurors to change their vote to guilty of Manslaughter (final count 9-3 guilty).

If KR is retried only on Indictment 2, I think the defense would best be served by eliminating all other distracting theories, and devote their defense to crossing the prosecution experts who allege KR's vehicle hit JOF, and how his injuries are inconsistent with this argument. And when the defense gets to present their case, I think they can finish strong with the top of their field experts of how KR did not strike JOF with any vehicle, the show the CW did not prove their case. MOO

If we are to believe a select group of the jurors communicated with the defense and the DA's office and provided to them that the panel was only deadlocked on Indictment 2 (Manslaughter), where the vote vacillated at 6-6 GUILTY, 8-4 GUILTY, and finally 9-3 GUILTY, does this not also say that 9 jurors believe that JOK was struck by KR's vehicle?

To be clear, they further offered: "Nobody thought she hit him on purpose, or even knew she hit him."

And all knowing the FBI provided science says no vehicle struck JOK, his injuries do not support being hit by a vehicle, nor does the terrain support this thesis-- but still there are 9 jurors who voted KR was GUILTY of manslaughter, and who presumably thought JOF was "hit" by KR (vehicle) but NONE thought it was on purpose or that she was aware she "hit" him.

"Hit" being the operative word.

 

[Forest_Wood]

Was Chloe trained to be police dog? What I have not understood in this case, and I am no accident reconstructionist, is that the dead man has multiple arm lacerations, through his clothing, and then a back head wound and facial/eye blackening. I just picture if someone is hit by a car, they have a huge impact wound somewhere- chest or back? So I do not understand the wounds. If a person had his arm out- maybe even in an attempt to stop impact, the arm wound be bashed not lacerated? And then how would there be a back head wound? I just do not get it and maybe I need to be hit by a tail light to further comprehend. I also do not understand the person not screaming- instantly knocked out by impact? No attempt to go toward the house, just flat out on his back. I cannot logically piece it together, so I would like an expert to explain it so it makes sense to me. IMO

It's too bad the CW didn't find an expert to testify to how that might have happened so we could understand it. Instead, they settled for Trooper Paul, who couldn't properly explain how that could have happened without leaving bruising or broken bones.
MOO.

 

[Forest_Wood]

IIRC, JMcA said BA did not lock his front door which was able she was able to enter the house and alert him and her sister about what happened to John. I don’t remember why they didn’t lock the door but considering that Chloe was said to be wary of strangers and a guard dog why didn’t she meet JMcA at the front door when she entered the house? Why didn’t she bark at her or the sounds of sirens and crying when that door opened and the sound traveled inside? Does Chloe just sleep in their room all night?

Didn’t BA Jr say his father asked him that morning if he fed the dog and that he said no and apologized for not doing so? But how could he have let Chloe out if she was in the room with his parents room the entire time and came down with them and JMcA? Why would BA even have to ask his son that if Chloe was in the closet that whole time. Unless she wasn’t and she was free to walk around the house but in that case how did JMcA not see her when she entered? Why don’t we hear her on camera? Was that even a good time to let a protective dog that might bark at and scare the few first responders still investigating the property? Even if they had fence it still might have diverted LE’s attention.

Very good questions!
If Chloe had been in BA's bedroom like was claimed when JMcC walked in through the front door, up the stairs and opened their bedroom door as claimed, then that dog most definitely would have barked. But JMc said she did not encounter the dog. Chloe would have barked at all the noises outside too (vehicle radios, vehicles running, all those service people, KR screaming, and so on). Dogs have very sensitive hearing. There's no way that JMc barged into their room in the dark, and Chloe didn't attack or bark. I can't believe that at all. So where was Chloe early that morning?!
MOO.

 

[HarmonyE.]

If KR is retried only on Indictment 2, I think the defense would best be served by eliminating all other distracting theories, and devote their defense to crossing the prosecution experts who allege KR's vehicle hit JOF, and how his injuries are inconsistent with this argument. And when the defense gets to present their case, I think they can finish strong with the top of their field experts of how KR did not strike JOF with any vehicle, the show the CW did not prove their case. MOO

I'm not sure the defense questioning of the players from that night was necessarily distracting. I think they were partly/mostly forgotten by the time the jury finally got to the jury room. In MA, jurors have no access to transcripts and have to rely solely on memory and notes when they deliberate. Not everyone has a great memory or is a good note taker. I know it's hard for me to interpret even my own handwriting weeks after I scribbled a note. Give the jury transcripts or tablets with Word only on them, for God's sake. Many of us have lost handwriting skills!

If it's down to manslaughter only, this eliminates the need for the state to prove motive or an intent to kill. This potentially cancels out all the Aruba nonsense and all of those voice mails Karen left after dropping John off. It also probably diminishes any "I hit him!" claims because "Could I have hit him?" makes more sense under the circumstances. It's a more streamlined case and I think that probably benefits Read by putting more focus on whether it is even possible that John's injuries were from being hit by a car.

 

[nodamselindistress]

Chloe had left early AM hours with their daughter and her boyfriend, Tristan, who came to pick her up unexpectedly around 2am.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Chloe had left early AM hours with their daughter and her boyfriend, Tristan, who came to pick her up unexpectedly around 2am.

It's the only thing that makes sense. NO ONE heard or saw Ms. Chloe that morning and it sounds like she was a loud and active girl.

Did they take the thing that caused the deep head injury too?

 

[Forest_Wood]

Chloe had left early AM hours with their daughter and her boyfriend, Tristan, who came to pick her up unexpectedly around 2am.

Well, BA testified Chloe slept in their room all night, either by the bed, or closer to the closet. He was specific. JMc testified she never saw, heard or encountered the dog when she barged in, no barking, no nothing.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Well, BA testified Chloe slept in their room all night, either by the bed, or closer to the closet. He was specific. JMc testified she never saw, heard or encountered the dog when she barged in, no barking, no nothing.

True, but he's a liar. A dog that sleeps in a closet? Right, dude. I'm sure.

By "no one else", I mean all the people that came into the house later that morning. No one mentions seeing or hearing her. My sister has a German Shepherd and that dog would bark at anyone entering the house, even from a bedroom closet.

 

[Seattle1]

I'm not sure the defense questioning of the players from that night was necessarily distracting. I think they were partly/mostly forgotten by the time the jury finally got to the jury room. In MA, jurors have no access to transcripts and have to rely solely on memory and notes when they deliberate. Not everyone has a great memory or is a good note taker. I know it's hard for me to interpret even my own handwriting weeks after I scribbled a note. Give the jury transcripts or tablets with Word only on them, for God's sake. Many of us have lost handwriting skills!

If it's down to manslaughter only, this eliminates the need for the state to prove motive or an intent to kill. This potentially cancels out all the Aruba nonsense and all of those voice mails Karen left after dropping John off. It also probably diminishes any "I hit him!" claims because "Could I have hit him?" makes more sense under the circumstances. It's a more streamlined case and I think that probably benefits Read by putting more focus on whether it is even possible that John's injuries were from being hit by a car.

I'm following cases right now where the Court is telling the parties to plan for 8 days (including jury selection) and I couldn't believe the CW spent 7 trial days introducing the patrons from the bar on the night in question! It was crazy. IMO, the CW (and the Judge) created an environment that was ripe for distracting and competing theories. Never saw a trial like this before! MOO

 

[shotgun09]

I'm following cases right now where the Court is telling the parties to plan for 8 days (including jury selection) and I couldn't believe the CW spent 7 trial days introducing the patrons from the bar on the night in question! It was crazy. IMO, the CW (and the Judge) created an environment that was ripe for distracting and competing theories. Never saw a trial like this before! MOO

Exactly !
Endless witnesses who had to answer the all important questions regarding Karen Read and John O'Keefe. Such as:

Where were you before you went to The Waterfall?
Were there bleachers at the Basketball game?
What did you eat at the Waterfall?
What if anything did you drink that night?
Was there a band playing?
What was the weather like? Was it snowing?
Are there high top tables at the Waterfall?

Over and over and over. Yeah....the jury checked out by then.

 

[Universecalling]

It's the only thing that makes sense. NO ONE heard or saw Ms. Chloe that morning and it sounds like she was a loud and active girl.

Did they take the thing that caused the deep head injury too?

One thing that always sticks in my head was a weird story by Ali how she found a random dog on the street that night and brought it to the police station, but the owner was already waiting for the dog outside.
I don’t remember if that was on her way to get Colin or after she got him.
Always wondered if the defense investigated that, or was that a proactive cover story in case anyone questioned wet dog paws and dirt in the car (since she most likely snuck Chloe to her house).

 

[keek]

One thing that always sticks in my head was a weird story by Ali how she found a random dog on the street that night and brought it to the police station, but the owner was already waiting for the dog outside.
I don’t remember if that was on her way to get Colin or after she got him.
Always wondered if the defense investigated that, or was that a proactive cover story in case anyone questioned wet dog paws and dirt in the car (since she most likely snuck Chloe to her house).

THIS.