MA - Triple Death Investigation - Dover, Norfolk County - 28 December 2023

[RickshawFan]

By the way, if you look at Teena, she did well. So one wonders if the problem, initially, was with him, and maybe Teena's family knew, or more likely, she was keeping it to herself. I think of these Indian brides, who, too, are brought into a different country, have to start anew, and perhaps, don't know what red flags to look for.

I'm not exactly clear on Teena's background. She might have come from a very cosmopolitan context. She also might have been living in the US or another country before the marriage meet-up?

And the marriage can't have been super-traditional, 'cos they elected not to have kids for quite a while. This is not usually the pattern for arranged marriages, in my experience.

Teena looks to have been very much inserted into American-mom life at the time of her death: she was on an ambitious social-organizer track at a posh academy PTA and also at the Red Cross. This is not a shrinking violet! However, perhaps she just thought of this as "her life" and she didn't get into his life at all.

His lie about still being employed must have been Chandler Halderson level and elaborate. Where was he all day? Or was it just that his wife was out all day, so she'd not notice if he was home?

 

[Rick_hadlee]

I'm not exactly clear on Teena's background. She might have come from a very cosmopolitan context. She also might have been living in the US or another country before the marriage meet-up?

And the marriage can't have been super-traditional, 'cos they elected not to have kids for quite a while. This is not usually the pattern for arranged marriages, in my experience.

Teena looks to have been very much inserted into American-mom life at the time of her death: she was on an ambitious social-organizer track at a posh academy PTA and also at the Red Cross. This is not a shrinking violet! However, perhaps she just thought of this as "her life" and she didn't get into his life at all.

His lie about still being employed must have been Chandler Halderson level and elaborate. Where was he all day? Or was it just that his wife was out all day, so she'd not notice if he was home?

I feel that there is a very good chance that there were some other reasons other than the financial one why this event happened. Financial troubles were probably the trigger. It is quite possible that Teena (and possibly Arianna), both learned about their true financial situation shortly before this happened. It could have led to some unpleasant arguments between the two. He was probably already very depressed and anxious, and the arguments pushed him over the edge. Another possibility is that he could have done something illegal financially, and perhaps he was facing a prison for the act.

 

[RickshawFan]

I feel that there is a very good chance that there were some other reasons other than the financial one why this event happened. Financial troubles were probably the trigger. It is quite possible that Teena (and possibly Arianna), both learned about their true financial situation shortly before this happened. It could have led to some unpleasant arguments between the two. He was probably already very depressed and anxious, and the arguments pushed him over the edge. Another possibility is that he could have done something illegal financially, and perhaps he was facing a prison for the act.

Gosh, I hadn’t thought of the possibility he’d done something illegal. Embezzlement of some kind? You think that was the reason he set his sights on the $16.5 million home? He thought he’d have the money?

LE hasn’t reported any ongoing investigations…

It’s possible he couldn’t pay Middlebury’s fees for second semester, and was going to have to break it to his daughter.

He does seem to have had a history of overreach. But strange to make financial miscalculations when his business (Fidelity) was in finance.

 

[Charlot123]

I'm not exactly clear on Teena's background. She might have come from a very cosmopolitan context. She also might have been living in the US or another country before the marriage meet-up?

And the marriage can't have been super-traditional, 'cos they elected not to have kids for quite a while. This is not usually the pattern for arranged marriages, in my experience.

Teena looks to have been very much inserted into American-mom life at the time of her death: she was on an ambitious social-organizer track at a posh academy PTA and also at the Red Cross. This is not a shrinking violet! However, perhaps she just thought of this as "her life" and she didn't get into his life at all.

His lie about still being employed must have been Chandler Halderson level and elaborate. Where was he all day? Or was it just that his wife was out all day, so she'd not notice if he was home?

Or maybe she did know, but protected Rick? Rick appears shallow, but for people of his psychotype, grandiosity is sometimes the defense from the need to recognize own flaws. I would not be surprised if in the family, individually, most saw Rick realistically, but people were concealing it from one another. And I would not be shocked to know that he struggled everywhere, and was dead-ended (or wife was outgrowing him), hence he changed the job but it failed, and his attempt at business was because he could not function well with people, either as a boss or as an employee.

It would appear to me that Teena came from a good, supportive family and was well-rounded.

Also, about the daughter. No one would explain why exactly they opted for having a child later. The story might be different from Rick Kamal' explanation. It is interesting that the residents of Marlborough, where they used to live prior, didn't remember the family well and someone said they didn't even know that the Kamals had a daughter. It might happen because the houses are not close. But it contradicts the story Rick presented in 2012, of driving a daughter to school every day. Marlborough is a nice area, but economically not Dover, and the parents of schoolmates might remember his expensive cars. Yet Rick specifically said he preferred not to carpool but spend the time 1:1 with his child.

I am split between deciding if he was raised in traditional values or assuming that his parents saw his inner flaws and compensated for him? If he borrowed money from his family and Tina's brother, maybe everyone separately was aware of cracks in the surface, but together, it was not discussed? His parents learned to praise him and present his best side to the world, his wife's family could be noticing something but kept silent because they married her off to him and felt responsible, and Teena was too proud to complain. Everyone is protecting everyone else, and ultimately, they all protect Rick. When finally his facade collapses, he kills himself but also the women whom he loves, because he can't stand the thought of them seeing the real Rick. (But I honestly think he was very irrational at that point, so no use in blaming him.)

He grew up in MA, went to schools there, surely people would remember what kind of a person he was?

And, we can't blame his family, after all, he made it into 57 years of age, and he might have felt desperate too often. But if there is one thing that could have helped him sooner, it would have been very good therapy. And of all places, MA is full of good specialists. If he went to school in MA, I wouldn't be surprised if the school counselor or teachers hinted at it to the parents?

 

[Charlot123]

I found an article about family annihilators and Rick Kamal fits one of the types to a T. Such cases almost come as a total surprise to the family and friends. The diagnoses family annihilators most often get are: depression and cluster B or cluster B+A traits. The only thing mentioned here which we have not discussed was substance abuse (common, but I didn't mention it because, too late). So RK belongs to the group of "altruistic annihilators" who view their family as the extension of their financial success and once the success is gone, they kill the family and inevitably, themselves. Another type of family annihilators, "self-righteous type", does not fit Rick but we have another thread about such a killer.

Family Annihilation: The Crimes and Psychology of Familicide | Crime Traveller

Examining familicide cases while exploring the psychological profiles and possible triggers of individuals who carry out these horrific acts.

www.crimetraveller.org

"Professor Neil Websdale, a Professor at Northern Arizona University is one academic who has studied these crimes ... For him, this idea of the male societal role and no longer meeting that role is a common trait among family annihilators. He follows the more traditional view of the reasons behind male father figures killing their families being rage, revenge, and altruism."

Per Me. Websdale, RK would fall into the group of
-the “civil reputable” killer, in contrast, is motivated by altruism where his identity is wrapped up in his family. Committing murder against all family members is, therefore, a way of saving them from the hardship and shame of financial troubles and bankruptcy and they will almost always commit suicide afterward.

If suicide after the act fails, in most cases which reach a court, the perpetrator will almost always plead some form of insanity as a defense, however not all believe this is an adequate explanation for such acts. "

Yardley, Wilson and Lynes after 30 years of studies, grouped their case studies into four categories looking at the motives behind the killings. Per them, RK would fall into

- Anomic killers. "For these individuals their family is an extension of their economic success in life and should any part of that economic status break down, for example, a job loss or financial hardship, their family no longer serves this function."

"The male view of the family is very black and white, and doesn’t reflect the increasingly dynamic role that women can play in the economy and in the institution of the family itself.” – Criminologist, Professor David Wilson"

I think this was Rick...

 

[RickshawFan]

- Anomic killers. "For these individuals their family is an extension of their economic success in life and should any part of that economic status break down, for example, a job loss or financial hardship, their family no longer serves this function."

Snipped for focus…

Anomic. This stood out to me as relevant to this case.

So, here’s a paragraph from another article that I also thought might be relevant:

The inquest into the killings found although there was no known history of violence in the relationship, Manrique had a “possessive” attitude towards his wife, was in financial stress and planned the crime over several weeks when he realised Maria was leaving him.

Based on what we know so far in the killings of Clarke and her children, she experienced an extreme form of “coercive control”, with her dress and movements closely monitored and enforced by her husband.

This paragraph gave me the idea that RK’s wish to drive his daughter to school every day was not so much about having quality time, as it was about control, worming his way into every aspect of her life.

The paragraph is from this article:

Why do men kill their families? Here’s what the research says

Research shows familicides are almost exclusively committed by men and key risk factors include a desire for control, particularly in areas associated with masculinity.

theconversation.com

 

[RickshawFan]

A feature I haven’t seen discussed in articles about familicide: families where the outside looks TOTALLY different from the inside, and not necessarily because of concealed domestic violence. Their whole life is pretty much a lie. Other examples of this: Todt, Hart family (with female perp).

 

[Charlot123]

Snipped for focus…

Anomic. This stood out to me as relevant to this case.

So, here’s a paragraph from another article that I also thought might be relevant:

The inquest into the killings found although there was no known history of violence in the relationship, Manrique had a “possessive” attitude towards his wife, was in financial stress and planned the crime over several weeks when he realised Maria was leaving him.

Based on what we know so far in the killings of Clarke and her children, she experienced an extreme form of “coercive control”, with her dress and movements closely monitored and enforced by her husband.

This paragraph gave me the idea that RK’s wish to drive his daughter to school every day was not so much about having quality time, as it was about control, worming his way into every aspect of her life.

The paragraph is from this article:

Why do men kill their families? Here’s what the research says

Research shows familicides are almost exclusively committed by men and key risk factors include a desire for control, particularly in areas associated with masculinity.

theconversation.com

I don’t know how the authors came up with the word “anomia”, which broadly, is word-naming difficulty, but the way I see it, these men don’t have many friends, are in poor touch with own emotions and looking inside themselves, see a person without a face. It is not uncommon, but what we project onto that person to “give him a face”, matters. (Altruism is the best, or humor if people have it).

Rick projected a number of A+++ qualities to cover perceived flaws, or real (social) deficiencies. Smart, graduate of Ivy League schools, etc, etc. (It is interested that in his own description, he self-scored high on extroversion, but never mind.)

The problem is, he was the product a materialistic perceptions of the world, and I don’t know what outlet was the first one to enumerate the number of the rooms and the cost of the house (Boston globe? If so, it goes downhill), but this materialistic description of his life travels from one article into another, here and in India, with exactly the same responses from both communities, money is not everything, he had no right to take the lives of his family, etc.

About the daughter, either having her was slightly more difficult than he described, or he loved her but as everything else, she was not “dear” but “expensive” to him, or maybe, it was part of his facade, a young entrepreneur in a beautiful car, with a beautiful child in the car, and god forbid someone looks deeper than that.

The same, btw, with his tailored suits that were mentioned in Harvard (what IT person, indeed, wears custom-tailored suits to work? In Silicone valley, real billionaires bike around in slippers). How would you call it? He dreamed of having custom-made suits as a kid and now he has nowhere to wear them? Or it is inability to transition from financial world to IT one? Or something else? Definitely, not normal.

 

[RickshawFan]

I don’t know how the authors came up with the word “anomia”, which broadly, is word-naming difficulty, but the way I see it, these men don’t have many friends, are in poor touch with own emotions and looking inside themselves, see a person without a face. It is not uncommon, but what we project onto that person to “give him a face”, matters. (Altruism is the best, or humor if people have it).

Rick projected a number of A+++ qualities to cover perceived flaws, or real (social) deficiencies. Smart, graduate of Ivy League schools, etc, etc. (It is interested that in his own description, he self-scored high on extroversion, but never mind.)

The problem is, he was the product a materialistic perceptions of the world, and I don’t know what outlet was the first one to enumerate the number of the rooms and the cost of the house (Boston globe? If so, it goes downhill), but this materialistic description of his life travels from one article into another, here and in India, with exactly the same responses from both communities, money is not everything, he had no right to take the lives of his family, etc.

About the daughter, either having her was slightly more difficult than he described, or he loved her but as everything else, she was not “dear” but “expensive” to him, or maybe, it was part of his facade, a young entrepreneur in a beautiful car, with a beautiful child in the car, and god forbid someone looks deeper than that.

The same, btw, with his tailored suits that were mentioned in Harvard (what IT person, indeed, wears custom-tailored suits to work? In Silicone valley, real billionaires bike around in slippers). How would you call it? He dreamed of having custom-made suits as a kid and now he has nowhere to wear them? Or it is inability to transition from financial world to IT one? Or something else? Definitely, not normal.

Did he really score high on extroversion in his self-scored test? Right-y-ho.Since no one seems to know much about him, I highly doubt he was in the least bit extroverted. Except perhaps in one sense: he could have derived his inner energy from other people rather than from within. Some personality tests define extroversion this way. Since he seems to have had a totally vacant interior, this might be exactly accurate: his whole self is outward-facing.

IMO he had a huge chip on his shoulder because he wasn't Ivy League. He desperately wanted to run in that circle, but he didn't qualify, because he didn't have an Ivy degree. He got himself what he considered to be the whole Ivy apparatus, but it was never enough. Actually, it was never going to be enough: fools errand.

I'm thinking maybe his daughter (and his wife) was a bauble to him. I believe that's what you're getting at, too.

I'm not really clear about whether his IT job was at Fidelity? I thought maybe he was an adjunct when he taught online Harvard Biz school courses, but since he didn't have an advanced degree....

On "anomic", they seem to derive it from the Greek anomia (without law, a-nomos) instead of the Latinate anomia (inability to name) The first would be something like "socially chaotic", which describes RK very well IMO.

I found the blog article with his interview just plain creepy: there seems to be no essence of self.

 

[Keane]

Rick was the CTO (Chief Technology Officer) at Harvard Business School Online, he was not an instructor.

From the Boston Globe:

"[Three] co-workers who spoke to the Globe on the condition of anonymity recall that officemates understood that Kamal was pushed out of his position for a transgression related to a competing business."

This happened in 2019; in 2023, his wife and daughter thought he was still employed by HBSO. Most likely he just told him that he worked from home.

 

[Charlot123]

Did he really score high on extroversion in his self-scored test? Right-y-ho.Since no one seems to know much about him, I highly doubt he was in the least bit extroverted. Except perhaps in one sense: he could have derived his inner energy from other people rather than from within. Some personality tests define extroversion this way. Since he seems to have had a totally vacant interior, this might be exactly accurate: his whole self is outward-facing.

IMO he had a huge chip on his shoulder because he wasn't Ivy League. He desperately wanted to run in that circle, but he didn't qualify, because he didn't have an Ivy degree. He got himself what he considered to be the whole Ivy apparatus, but it was never enough. Actually, it was never going to be enough: fools errand.

I'm thinking maybe his daughter (and his wife) was a bauble to him. I believe that's what you're getting at, too.

I'm not really clear about whether his IT job was at Fidelity? I thought maybe he was an adjunct when he taught online Harvard Biz school courses, but since he didn't have an advanced degree....

On "anomic", they seem to derive it from the Greek anomia (without law, a-nomos) instead of the Latinate anomia (inability to name) The first would be something like "socially chaotic", which describes RK very well IMO.

I found the blog article with his interview just plain creepy: there seems to be no essence of self.

He does not appear extroverted at all. In the interviews, he is dour, boring and shallow. I think lack of Ivy League degree was a problem, but not the biggest problem. His profound misunderstanding of the fact that you are not only what you outwardly project, and people easily see beyond that, was an issue. So what happens if you can’t project the image of a successful businessman, husband and father? Kill yourself? Well, it happens. Kill your family? This means, you deprive them of the right to exist as independent people and they are perceived as the part of your imaginary world. Then without you, your imaginary world stops to exist. But herein lies the madness.
I don’t know what he did at Fidelity. His Linkedin said, VP, but I think Fidelity needs to correct it. There are lots of inflations in his resume. I think he was CTO at Harvard online (remote) education school, that was his IT job.
I don’t think his family was a bauble, I think they were to him, a reward for being outstanding. Like that useless house or tailor-made suits. (Like, you have good grades in elementary school, you get an iPad as a reward. So he had to reward himself to boost perceived self-worth, and the most spending happens when he is fired and his business dissolves.) When he loses the house, when he is going to be on the street, one day he has to face it. And this is when he self-annihilates. But he still had no right to decide for his family. (But again, he is ill).
Interesting that he was thinking of buying a 16-mln dollar mansion. I wonder if it was the last attempt at ego-boosting. He communicates with the realtors, who view them as a wealthy, successful person, and this is when he feels happy.

I think we all, humans, assign too much value to some external factors, but he went over all limits.

 

[Keane]

VPs are a dime a dozen at Fidelity.

 

[RickshawFan]

Rick was the CTO (Chief Technology Officer) at Harvard Business School Online, he was not an instructor.

From the Boston Globe:

"[Three] co-workers who spoke to the Globe on the condition of anonymity recall that officemates understood that Kamal was pushed out of his position for a transgression related to a competing business."

This happened in 2019; in 2023, his wife and daughter thought he was still employed by HBSO. Most likely he just told him that he worked from home.

Thanks. IMO Even CTO at Harvard Business School Online has little cachet: it might be a pretty basic technical job. But it does explain why he's "at Harvard" with no advanced degree. And I doubt he was making enough to support his extravagant lifestyle.

I would guess the conflict with a competing business had to do with his private education company, which I doubt was really a viable business proposition (the offspring of parents who could afford it likely had a grounding in the skills already, so there's not really a pool of customers for the company services).

VPs are a dime a dozen at Fidelity.

Yes. Kamal does not seem to be a very stand out individual.

This whole story is strange. Have we seen another like it, except in the criminal world and/or maybe twenty-somethings like Chandler Halderson? I mean, it's really a reach to shop for a $16.5 M home.

 

[RickshawFan]

He does not appear extroverted at all. In the interviews, he is dour, boring and shallow.

Snipped for focus.

I totally agree with you, but I'm always surprised at how standard tests (e.g. MBTI) characterize extraversion. I also once taught an entire class of students, 80% of whom I would have classified as extroverted, but NONE of them classified themselves that way. Why? I believe because in their cultures, extroversion in women was a negative, so all those students decided they were introverts!

I think lack of Ivy League degree was a problem, but not the biggest problem. His profound misunderstanding of the fact that you are not only what you outwardly project, and people easily see beyond that, was an issue.

This is actually more or less what I'm saying. The Ivy League thing was one detail among many that he strove for because of what it represented. As though it was some kind of badge or accessory (his wife and daughter were similarly badges). "Entrepreneur" was also a thing especially 10-20 years ago when he started his business. I would imagine he started it in part for that reason, too: another badge.

@Charlot123 , it sounds like that's where you're going with the "reward" concept, like the ipad for good grades. I'm calling it a badge, like a Boy Scout badge.

But he also seems not to have been inclined to do the real work of actually earning all those things, in the same way he didn't earn enough to buy his house or car or daughter's education. This quite fascinates me.

 

[RickshawFan]

His profound misunderstanding of the fact that you are not only what you outwardly project, and people easily see beyond that, was an issue.

Exactly.

I wonder if people noticed that what he projected didn't match the reality. It all seems pretty extreme to me, unless maybe you inherited money.

IMO if you pretend to actually be an entrepreneur, real entrepreneurs would know that was in name only. If you own a Merc, half the parents at the posh school his daughter went to might have a nagging feeling he wasn't legit. Even his colleagues were kind of weirded out about his suits. I suppose he was aware that he was not coming across the way he hoped to, but maybe he wasn't acute enough to see that in himself?

Are we thinking he got fired at Fidelity, too?

 

[Charlot123]

Snipped for focus.

I totally agree with you, but I'm always surprised at how standard tests (e.g. MBTI) characterize extraversion. I also once taught an entire class of students, 80% of whom I would have classified as extroverted, but NONE of them classified themselves that way. Why? I believe because in their cultures, extroversion in women was a negative, so all those students decided they were introverts!


This is actually more or less what I'm saying. The Ivy League thing was one detail among many that he strove for because of what it represented. As though it was some kind of badge or accessory (his wife and daughter were similarly badges). "Entrepreneur" was also a thing especially 10-20 years ago when he started his business. I would imagine he started it in part for that reason, too: another badge.

@Charlot123 , it sounds like that's where you're going with the "reward" concept, like the ipad for good grades. I'm calling it a badge, like a Boy Scout badge.

But he also seems not to have been inclined to do the real work of actually earning all those things, in the same way he didn't earn enough to buy his house or car or daughter's education. This quite fascinates me.

It might be a badge, or an order, a military decoration? An order one gets for a certain heroic act, and there is some interesting psychology there. My relative, a military surgeon, got several important ones for WWII. It is part of one's identity, but also a fence. People may never know you, yet the decoration does the job of telling them how brave and altruistic you are. They are free to assume a lot of good things about you. (I heard that there was also a black market, where some people would buy orders from people who got them honestly, to look "heroic".)

So perhaps Rick saw the house, and the yard and the car, and a family and even suits as orders of merit? Or, partly an award, partly, high-end retail therapy, to comfort yourself when you fail?

About extraversion. Many people are "ambiverts", shy, but sincerely interested in people.

 

[RickshawFan]

It might be a badge, or an order, a military decoration? An order one gets for a certain heroic act, and there is some interesting psychology there. My relative, a military surgeon, got several important ones for WWII. It is part of one's identity, but also a fence. People may never know you, yet the decoration does the job of telling them how brave and altruistic you are. They are free to assume a lot of good things about you. (I heard that there was also a black market, where some people would buy orders from people who got them honestly, to look "heroic".)

So perhaps Rick saw the house, and the yard and the car, and a family and even suits as orders of merit? Or, partly an award, partly, high-end retail therapy, to comfort yourself when you fail?

About extraversion. Many people are "ambiverts", shy, but sincerely interested in people.

Exactly my characterization. Interesting conversation we're having.

I hadn't heard the term ambiverts before. Interesting.

 

[adot0902]

VPs are a dime a dozen at Fidelity.

I just want to emphasize this, I'm pretty sure every single person at Fidelity is a VP, its not a knock, and it's standard industry practice not just Fidelity. But being a VP at Fidelity can be a -$212 a year to $2,000,000 a year job the salary range is crazy.

 

[Charlot123]

I just want to emphasize this, I'm pretty sure every single person at Fidelity is a VP, its not a knock, and it's standard industry practice not just Fidelity. But being a VP at Fidelity can be a -$212 a year to $2,000,000 a year job the salary range is crazy.

I had to Google. Depends on a company, it seems. So these titles might mean a lot in one company and nothing in another. It is like, “VP at Fidelity” and in parenthesis (“but unlike ***, Fidelity has hundreds of VPs”).

I saw his salary estimate somewhere but I can’t find this link. Suffice it to say, lower than the average in Dover. With two similar salaries, it would have been OK for places like Newton or Marlborough. I checked current means in MA. But if the guesstimate is right, even when employed, he was living above the means.

 

[adot0902]

I had to Google. Depends on a company, it seems. So these titles might mean a lot in one company and nothing in another. It is like, “VP at Fidelity” and in parenthesis (“but unlike ***, Fidelity has hundreds of VPs”).

I saw his salary estimate somewhere but I can’t find this link. Suffice it to say, lower than the average in Dover. With two similar salaries, it would have been OK for places like Newton or Marlborough. I checked current means in MA. But if the guesstimate is right, even when employed, he was living above the means.

Companies like Fidelity and JP Morgan use it interchangeably with Financial Advisor, if that helps. Kind of like how some companies are calling their employees associates. It sounds fancy.

He was living SIGNIFICANTLY above his means with that huge house and furthermore should have known better to take the loan from the builder on the house (he maybe could have swung a 30 year with 20% down, but 5% down and a 2 year payoff that's absurd, no one with any sense would make that deal unless they had the cash liquid ready to pay off and got a killer rate). As a broker/dealer you have to disclose unpaid loans/foreclosures/literally everything so by defaulting on his loan of that magnitude he would have essentially sunk his entire financial career.