MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #6

[Evey]

Your scenario explains why people get murdered every day. Rage, deception, one wants in and the other wants out etc. And you are right, people can hang out and not be seen, and it's possible to not tell anyone about it. Maybe he didn't buy her gifts.
How did they communicate?
How would they know when to meet?
I doubt they have anyone in mind, but if they do, why the DNA dragnet? Even if they have stopped in the past month (not sure if they have or not) They would have tracked that guy down through phone/ email ISP records within a week, and if he drove or had access to an SUV, they'd know that by now too, and I'd guess a DNA sample even if he refused.
Your scenario sounds perfect, except for three things. The first is the timeline and how they could have driven elsewhere first to talk, second, if they did why he brought her back there, and the third is, the electronic footprint.. I'm still not past that.

So one idea is Snapchat... once you post something it's gone a day later or once you delete it and private ones you can delete also and you can erase browser caches and someone doesn't have to be on your friends to send you snaps or view them assuming neither had eachother added or even she or he let anyone see their snaps and maybe some inside code word in his or her stories that's seems normal but everyone but even just heading out jogging ones so the other knows to head out and nobody is any suspicious because it's one they came up with in person at a bar or something. Maybe we should look into homes close with married or single men who are rich or attractive who wouldn't have motivw to kill if a secret girl threatened to tell. Or how many young dudes run routes but like it. And they could have hooked up but once or ages ago so her friends don't remember. Like my bestfriends forget some of mine. Or if her bf lives in town what if her and his friend had something going on. Those aren't the only ones but I don't think it was done by someone she was sleeping with. But it would explain why the sexual a assault thing that they stopped mentioning and depending on what they're into light chokibg could make them at first mention strangulation. But maybe now they're unsure and but hence we don't hear it. I mean she could have done those things with her secret bf or bf making them not realize it wasn't by actually rape or strangulation but maybe this person saw them meet up his anger grew me the suv of the dude leaves and she prepared to finish her run when some crazy obsessed dude attacks. Or this could he her an friend who's obsessed with her and took a chance when but the bf isn't in town(not sure where he lives) there's too many options. BUt to me I see jealous and obsessed stalker and if her bf was new then maybe that set off the stalker. ALL just ideas but s far as I know back to my first part and that is that Snapchat you could likely have a secret one via that. Maybe knowing how long she'd been with her bf could help some, could show us it set a stalker off.

 

[Gussified]

One issue I have with the secondary crime scene theory, is that the dogs tracked her to the cart path. It was Sunday night. At that point, they were looking for a missing person, not a dead body, so I'm assuming it was NOT cadaver dogs. If she had been abducted & killed somewhere else, and her body dumped on the cart path, the dogs would have lost the trail. Wouldn't they? I mean, I'm sure you could manipulate the theory to explain this away, but then I think you really have to get into some gymnastics.


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[Gussified]

Not that it impacts the gps at all, but working for Google, don't you think she'd have a Google phone, rather than an iPhone? (Does Google still make phones?)


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[Evey]

You could be out with your friends and you run into their other friends while you are out. And maybe go to someone's place for an after party all together ...that's how you hang out with friends of friends.

Hanging out one on one and not going to places where you run into people you know is how you go out and don't get seen.

Two different things.

But again I don't think she was running around meeting up with him secretly.

That or he's a bartenders or something's he could slip notes a secrerly with her drinks. One idea does the area still have pay phones? That would be one way to call. Have he other person wait by inebriated and call via another. I don't believe it's a secret thing with a dude if anything a one night stands from a long time back who didn't take rejection well. But likely but someone she knew via school or activities or parties ans bars etc

 

[Evey]

RBBM : Somehow this hypothetical meeting caused her to cancel her plans to go to the store. What if : the person she ran into lives near the store, and invited her into his house, for the juice/.water ? They talked in his house. Then she left to go home. VM might have thought this was a chance encounter, but actually he had been waiting and watching her. I think this is a person younger than VM, college age. He was possibly staying in his parents' house over the summer. He saw his opportunity that day, although he may have long thought of it. This crime sounds like the work of a young, extreme high risk predator. He would be back at school now, so not there to give a DNA sample.
jmo
Smart enough not to do this inside his parents' home.

I was thinking this also and maybe very I am college or tutoring etc ornate neighbors and that's why they did the second dragnet near the time they'd be visiting. He would be like now or never and drove off to college in his SUV even maybe. And maybe he lives close to the place they found her leading me to ask if any have kids in college. Also wouls they have cameras where she ate with her dad and when she got off the bus etc? To like look over anything odd. Maybe this is someone her own family wouldn't suspect or want to admit would do it. But I think hes exerpainced and if going to college in New York that would be a possible connection of the murders of her and KV so I wonder who they've both met randomly in New York who maybe went to college with KV? And is from where VM lived growing up or around Princeton. I feel whoever this is she may have shot down once or some friendzoned close male friend she didn't suspect who she would go meet and may finally have gotten fed up in a jealous rage.
I also wondered fire fighter with the whole not burning the forest down but seeming knowledgable. Maybe a police cadet who has a dark SUV? For the force. Are there any young cops?

 

[Evey]

This may have already been answered I am just catching up in the posts but this log was visible in early crime scene footage and was there at the time. Vehicle could have been pulled up to that point approximately 75 feet into the woods from the road. The vehicle would not be obvious to passing cars at that spot, but could in theory be visible if someone happens to turn their head and look directly down the path as they drove by. But I will agree with that if a vehicle had driven down that path law enforcement knows it from evidence at the scene. Although the grass might spring back up to some degree, visible evidence would have remained that a vehicle was through that area, and that would have caught law enforcement's attention since it is not typically an area where vehicle travel is expected.

My thought is maybe they know someone did drive and someone had saw a dark SUV faintly down there and maybe tire tracks have them knowing an SUV but nkt what color bht only that its dark by some people who drove past and looked down there and saw a small glimpse. I just don't believe someone could attack her via any spot where a fast hill climb would be needed. Plus couldn't trucks passing tell someone is hiding in it? And cops I think would have had crime scene tape around the guard rail gully area. The only type I see being able to pull it off would be a football player in shape but still don't see it. Plus screaming. And likely hiring over the head would leave potential blood splatter equaling more crime scene stuff. And why she would ever walk down a one way path in a woods on private property is beyond me in the first place. Unless she stopped running past the spot we saw her run cut short before the privacy changes and she now ran down to the path then to its end and back. Giving close homes easy plotting.

 

[Evey]

I don't know if you are male or female but as a female I can saying feeling like things are your fault is a complicated matter....it's compounded by psychology and social norms. As a girl when you feel something is your fault like that, you might not tell people so you can avoid their judgement. Judgement from those you love and respect is the worst kind of judgment one can feel...it's like when your parents say we aren't angry, we are disappointed.

However that doesn't mean that she doesn't also blame him. Feeling like it's your fault doesn't mean you don't think it's also their fault, or even that they are at far greater fault.

I think it's possible if they were taking about things that day, and he tried to get her to hook up again, and she said no, and he tried again, and she said stop or ill tell your wife...he could have snapped.

I am a female and not only would I not feel bad but I wouldn't blame myself. If a dude sleeps with you and you don't know they had a wife or gf then they clearly likely did it before and in some cases the women they're with isn't satisfying basic needs or is a terrible gf or wife so often I blame the girl not them or myself despite it being ****** of them. I'm sure I should feel guilty but I never have because if it's neglect in the girls part or they've cheated before then it's not my issue. So I don't think all girls feel bad because neither do most the girls I know. And I never am bothered to tell my parents and wouldn't hide it from them. To me at the age me and her are you just don't feel the need to hide stuff from everyone even a bestfriend. Unless the person is sleeping with their friends ex or an exes bestfriend and even my friends who have married men they meet up with they still tell me. The only reasons besides that are if the dudes nasty and they're embarrassed which I've never done that bht I've seen girls who have or if the dudes violent or bad news. Or if her bf is from there and she can't risk it coming out but my thing was always to tell my friends about guys I'm supposed to keep secret just as long as they don't know them. But honestly there's always threatening to tell the wife if not given money or wanting to call it off cause stuff with her bf was serious now and they'd just been a summer fling. But here's the thing in a small town with social media she can easily know or find out he's married and they have these ring finger lines you can look for that shows thwyre married but took it off recently. I guess I just find a secret lover highly unlikely. Or any extreme guilt unless over her cheating on her bf but that's just all just my opinion my point being me and many other girls don't feels the need to hide stuff at our age except for reasons mentioned just by now and many do feel as you stated but honestly less and less the more time goes on and I don't know any girl who doesn't google and ask around about a new dude. It just seems more obsessive stalker type serial killer who plans it all. Oddly likely the one that killed molly bish and others.

 

[Rocky1]

Excellent work! So the phone was near mountain barn at 2:25. Most likely, I believe, it was with the killer at not VM at this time. I think she was already in the woods and he was making his escape. She wouldn't have been running past that spot at that time. Her pace was typically 10-11 mins/mile. If she left even at 1:15, she would have passed mountain barn by 1:50 whether she ran north or south on BSR. (All indications are that she ran north). ALSO, if she was some running at mtn barn at 2:25, she would be in a hurry to get back, as she would be on pace to arrive home around 3:10. THe accuracy of the iPhone data says a lot, I think. There are variabilities in the accuracy due to many many factors. But the fact that the user here reports it was very accurate at both locaTions should be considered weighty at this point.

All sounds good, except the user has her wi fi on. If the user didn't, it would have thrown the location off quite a bit. VM may have had it turned off. True, Map My Run wouldn't have been turned on, but, if we are going by what LE said, she went for a "walk" that day, and not a run. She was also seen "walking". Maybe if he destroyed her phone at the crime scene, the wi fi feature was destroyed a second before the phone shut off.
Still got to get past why anyone who killed someone would want a phone that would hone in on him. It's not logical to me. The only way I see that happening is if he shut it off before he left the woods I doubt he wanted the phone as a trophy. It's not like he can power it up ever without giving away his location. I don't think he took it with him at all.
Can't say it was in the SUV and he didn't know it, if you believe she wasn't in the car, because once again, he wouldn't have dumped her there IMO.
If your scenario is true, why did he back track? If he went by the Mountain Barn, either way, he did. Why not take the shortest way out?
One note is that if he did drive south, the Cam at the bank may have caught him.

 

[ForensicMass]

Not that it impacts the gps at all, but working for Google, don't you think she'd have a Google phone, rather than an iPhone? (Does Google still make phones?)


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They don't all have google /android phones. It's whatever you want, the company doesn't care. My friend works for them in SFO- he's got an iPhone.

 

[ForensicMass]

All sounds good, except the user has her wi fi on. If the user didn't, it would have thrown the location off quite a bit. VM may have had it turned off. True, Map My Run wouldn't have been turned on, but, if we are going by what LE said, she went for a "walk" that day, and not a run. She was also seen "walking". Maybe if he destroyed her phone at the crime scene, the wi fi feature was destroyed a second before the phone shut off.
Still got to get past why anyone who killed someone would want a phone that would hone in on him. It's not logical to me. The only way I see that happening is if he shut it off before he left the woods I doubt he wanted the phone as a trophy. It's not like he can power it up ever without giving away his location. I don't think he took it with him at all.
Can't say it was in the SUV and he didn't know it, if you believe she wasn't in the car, because once again, he wouldn't have dumped her there IMO.
If your scenario is true, why did he back track? If he went by the Mountain Barn, either way, he did. Why not take the shortest way out?
One note is that if he did drive south, the Cam at the bank may have caught him.

You don't see any possibility that in the struggle of trying to abduct someone and then actually fighting them to the death, the the cell phone could be temporarily put on the back burner or forgotten in the chaos? If for only a few minutes, when he got himself out of there and then realized he had the phone still? To me this seems very possible. How clear is your mind when you are attacking someone and then scared to death that you'll get caught? You need to cover your DNA tracks and get the heck out of there. Once you clear the scene, you remember. s***, I still have her phone on me. This really seems unreasonable to you?

The backtracking is another issue, certainly. Of it I can say this- if he wanted to flee south, he was very near to the northern end of BSR, and if he was pulled off "along BSR" at the path, we can I think assume he was positioned in a northerly direction, making the fastest immediate escape in that direction. Additionally, I also personally believe the killer knew where she would be starting from, and perhaps he did not want to pass by the house to be seen by RELEVANT witnesses. Just a thought.

wonder if the bank camera can see the roadway.

And you're right, we need an accuracy test with no wifi

 

[ForensicMass]

QUESTION REGARDING ESCAPE ROUTE

would the killer prefer back roads over main roads, to "sneak" away? If he had to choose between say route 31, a state route with many passing cars and more densely positioned houses, or stay on the back routes?

I am leaning very much toward a killer from areas to the south of the site. Rutland, Holden, maybe even Worcester. But I like the first two better

 

[Kickoff61]

The problem with a vehicle there initially facing North, is the photos show a guardrail there. It wouldn't be possible for him to pull over for abduction or attack until the guardrail ends exactly at the entrance of the path. That would be difficult timing. He would have to follow her closely behind. Unless if vehicle is already parked there before she approaches, and that 'adds' time to the vehicle being there, (which is already unbelievably long enough for all this with a driveway across the street so close and traffic) Then he would probably have to be outside of the vehicle or otherwise be jumping out of the drivers side with a struggle in the street? That is to say she doesn't cross to other side of the road when seeing vehicle there as well. The location is difficult due to the guardrail for initial abduction attack there. IMO Somehow it can happen, I am only saying difficult.

 

[Kickoff61]

IF the person is nearby as LE are doing a DNA dragnet for a reason, the escape route doesn't have to be much of one at all.

 

[Kickoff61]

Hopefully they will have more information soon, with much headway in this lengthy investigation to eliminate some of this extensive speculation and most of all an arrest so the community is safe.

 

[Kickoff61]

If the person is from some other town, and not in the system, it is hard to believe they would take the risk of doing the fire. It would be extremely difficult to find them to make the DNA connection. Risking a fire in mid afternoon there, IF the person is that intent on getting rid of his DNA after the struggle left it behind, it points to probability of someone close by worried the connection can still be made. Seeing that police are doing a DNA dragnet in the area, shows why the person would have been worried (for instance).

 

[ForensicMass]

The problem with a vehicle there initially facing North, is the photos show a guardrail there. It wouldn't be possible for him to pull over for abduction or attack until the guardrail ends exactly at the entrance of the path. That would be difficult timing. He would have to follow her closely behind. Unless if vehicle is already parked there before she approaches, and that 'adds' time to the vehicle being there, (which is already unbelievably long enough for all this with a driveway across the street so close and traffic) Then he would probably have to be outside of the vehicle or otherwise be jumping out of the drivers side with a struggle in the street? That is to say she doesn't cross to other side of the road when seeing vehicle there as well. The location is difficult due to the guardrail for initial abduction attack there. IMO Somehow it can happen, I am only saying difficult.

I can see what you mean by all of that. What about the attempted abduction in either westborough or northboro- I can't remember which but in one of these scenarios I believe a vehicle was parked along the side of the road with its hood up. I agree that if he was driving along and had to pass her just as she was running by the path that timing is too impeccable. I am more inclined to think that he may have pulled over at the path in advance of her running by.

I know that females often have their guard up when something looks unusual, but I have also heard many times here on this forum that it is not unusual for a car to be parked on the shoulder of the road in Princeton. What is highly unusual is a murder in Princeton. To me this adds up to the possibility that Vanessa never would have considered that a car along the side of the road whether located near the path or elsewhere was any risk to her safety or well-being. Of course I might be wrong about this, but I honestly feel like she would not have been that off-put By a vehicle along the road, since nothing ever happens in this town. Prior to this incident when I visited town looking out for my own safety never even entered my mind. Granted I am a male, but I guess what I am saying is that when I am in Worcester or Fitchburg or even Leominster there is at least some little conscious voice keeping an eye out. But never in Princeton. Danger just wasn't a real possibility there for me before this.

 

[ForensicMass]

IF the person is nearby as LE are doing a DNA dragnet for a reason, the escape route doesn't have to be much of one at all.

I think he lives 5-25 miles away. Just a hunch given the totality of circumstances. And if that is the case, the direction he went could be useful.

 

[ForensicMass]

If the person is from some other town, and not in the system, it is hard to believe they would take the risk of doing the fire. It would be extremely difficult to find them to make the DNA connection. Risking a fire in mid afternoon there, IF the person is that intent on getting rid of his DNA after the struggle left it behind, it points to probability of someone close by worried the connection can still be made. Seeing that police are doing a DNA dragnet in the area, shows why the person would have been worried (for instance).

Good thoughts. I agree about the fire. I am still unsure about the extent of any fire. I will return to the scene when the snow melts to have a better look at what remains.

Don't we know that this guy is not in the system? I think everyone within walking distance to this area has been throughly investigated whether they even know it or not. And then there's something else that we have not yet really discussed-

IF The intent here was purely sexual assault and not murder, how would someone hyper local to the area avoid detection or identification in the future if they did not kill her? If we think that this was an unplanned murder when it was supposed to be SA, and I'm not saying we do, but if we do, then we have to reason that it isn't anyone VM might immediately recognize or see again.

Which sort of leads me to believe that murder might have been a part of the original plan but perhaps not in these circumstances. Thoughts?

 

[liz b.]

When had it last rained in Princeton at the time of VM's murder ? tia

 

[ForensicMass]

When had it last rained in Princeton at the time of VM's murder ? tia

August 2, 0.37".
And before that, only 1.92" in entire month of July. It was BONE DRY out there. Dryest year I've seen in my life no doubt.