Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 19

[Texana]

I don't know how much of a political connection you have, Gord, but I know that the McCanns certainly have more than I do.

I know that Gerry McCann was able to call a friend from University days and Sky News was covering the story within hours. (and not several hours.) I know that a high ranking Cabinet-level official spent massive amounts of time in Portugal helping the McCanns.

I would be lucky if a junior level clerk from the Consulate showed up at all that night--more likely the next day.

I know that celebrities made public appeals and donated to a massive reward fund. Their legal fund has been underwritten by a British business tycoon (there's a good word to use now and again.)

But most significantly, Gerry McCann was able to meet with the Attorney General of the United States on just a few days' notice. There are thousands of American citizens who wish they had that ability--whatever you want to call it, it's certainly something I don't have.

 

[Texana]

And another thought...Why does it matter whether or not the McCanns have political influence through friends? If they are innocent, it has no bearing on that fact--the two facts (innocence and political influence) exist separately of each other.

If they are not innocent, the fact that they have political influence matters only in that it may affect the consequences they face. However, it again, does not have anything to do with not being innocent, either.

Debating the degree of political influence they have is like debating how wealthy someone is. It's all relative, and that being so, I can say that relatively speaking, the McCanns have more political influence than many of us.

 

[colomom]

There are a few of you that offer "counter-attacks" to some postings that question the McCanns and their actions on the evening of May 3rd 2007, and you know who you are....

I want to express to you that you are wasting your breath....

At this point most of the "regulars" have already determined their interpretation of what happened that night. The insults and diatribe will be ignored, you are waaaaay to late.

At this point, we are waiting....

We are waiting to find out what is "evidence" and what is "fiction". Nothing you can say will make any difference in the mindset. Only absolute proof will change or confirm a mind here.

So, the insults (no matter how veiled) will be ignored and actually will work against you in terms of "changing minds". Here in the US, we care very little (in general) about the "nuts and bolts" of the case, we only want the conclusion. If you want to change minds and convince people that they need to turn their attention toward another theory.....offer a reasonable alternative theory....not a bait to a fight....

Back to the happy holidays at my house.....

 

[philamena]

There are a few of you that offer "counter-attacks" to some postings that question the McCanns and their actions on the evening of May 3rd 2007, and you know who you are....

I want to express to you that you are wasting your breath....
.....

colomom,
Am I misinterpreting your post when I take it to mean that no other opinions about the McCann case are allowed? :waitasec:
Because over that past few years I've never read a thread here at WS where the majority ruled and those that questioned a theory were told to zip it. Isn't that what you're saying or am I misunderstanding?

Madeleine's case is still an open and on going investigation. Until the mods tell us to stop discussing it, I hope everyone will continue to post their thoughts, theories and opinions.

 

[Trino]

There are a few of you that offer "counter-attacks" to some postings that question the McCanns and their actions on the evening of May 3rd 2007, and you know who you are....

I want to express to you that you are wasting your breath....

At this point most of the "regulars" have already determined their interpretation of what happened that night. The insults and diatribe will be ignored, you are waaaaay to late.

At this point, we are waiting....
We are waiting to find out what is "evidence" and what is "fiction". Nothing you can say will make any difference in the mindset. Only absolute proof will change or confirm a mind here.

So, the insults (no matter how veiled) will be ignored and actually will work against you in terms of "changing minds". Here in the US, we care very little (in general) about the "nuts and bolts" of the case, we only want the conclusion. If you want to change minds and convince people that they need to turn their attention toward another theory.....offer a reasonable alternative theory....not a bait to a fight.... Back to the happy holidays at my house.....

Wow. Can you just speak your mind Colomom? Should we just close the entire McCann forum so no one can say anything?

While I agree that nothing really has changed very much, still the media is posting daily. Can we "pretty please" talk about what we read?

 

[ThoughtFox]

Colomom: I agree about the "waiting." We are like polar bears waiting for the thin ice to freeze.

It's nerve wracking, but all cases are like this at one point or another.

 

[txsvicki]

I think the poster meant that people are wasting their time trying to change other poster's minds who suspect and think the McCann's act/acted oddly and suggested some good discussion about other theories. I know I'll only change my mind when the LE there actually give some details and if some real evidence shows up implicating someone else. About jogging, I think that if the jog was timed and really done within a couple of days of the disappearance, there is some reason that the two of them wanted to time a run or how long it actually took them to get to a certain point. Maybe they were even like Scott Peterson driving to the marina and used that lookout where they jogged to see and check up on something.

 

[Shazza]

I have followed and posted regularly on this case especially at the beginning, but all that I see happening at the moment is rehashing news that has been discussed very early in the investigation, so I stopped posting but read everyday, we have all made up our minds one way or another as to what we think has happened to Madelaine, but until there is conclusive evidence to support her disappearance there is nothing imo that are going to change the minds of anyone who posts here.

 

[gord]

There are a few of you that offer "counter-attacks" to some postings that question the McCanns and their actions on the evening of May 3rd 2007, and you know who you are....

I want to express to you that you are wasting your breath....

At this point most of the "regulars" have already determined their interpretation of what happened that night. The insults and diatribe will be ignored, you are waaaaay to late.

At this point, we are waiting....

We are waiting to find out what is "evidence" and what is "fiction". Nothing you can say will make any difference in the mindset. Only absolute proof will change or confirm a mind here.

So, the insults (no matter how veiled) will be ignored and actually will work against you in terms of "changing minds". Here in the US, we care very little (in general) about the "nuts and bolts" of the case, we only want the conclusion. If you want to change minds and convince people that they need to turn their attention toward another theory.....offer a reasonable alternative theory....not a bait to a fight....

Back to the happy holidays at my house.....

I would assume that I am one of " those " who offer counter attacks , insults and diatribe -

If have have insulted anyone here then I apologise - I am quite careful not to ever get personal with anyone - sure I can be forecefull with my opinion as everyone is here - but that is the whole point of debate - it can get heated at times and we all get frustrated as a group that the case seems to be stuck - with no ending in sight . But if everyone agreed with everyone then it would lead too a pretty boring board

If I get too frustrated as I did a couple of weeks back . then I just take a break from the boards for a while .

for me the " nuts and Bolts " of the case is the only point of being here - to debate , have a good discussion , go over things .

I have never been so arrogant to say that I am 100% correct in this whole case and that is it - I have said a few times that of course I could be way off - but just cant see it -

the thing is this still is an active investigation - At the end of the day it is up to the Police and the Portugese legal team to find the evidence , make a case and charge the guilty people - thankfully in modern democratic countries that is how it done - you actualy have to prove beyond reasonable doubt - and the Mccanns are entitled to exactly the same process of law as anyone else.

so we just wait for the next report and the next break and hope that there is soemthing that can bring this case to a conclusion

 

[Trino]

but until there is conclusive evidence to support her disappearance there is nothing imo that are going to change the minds of anyone who posts here.

I disagree. There are definite fence sitters, and I, personally, have changed my mind more than once on this case after reading what others have posted.

 

[gord]

I don't know how much of a political connection you have, Gord, but I know that the McCanns certainly have more than I do.

I know that Gerry McCann was able to call a friend from University days and Sky News was covering the story within hours. (and not several hours.) I know that a high ranking Cabinet-level official spent massive amounts of time in Portugal helping the McCanns.

I would be lucky if a junior level clerk from the Consulate showed up at all that night--more likely the next day.

I know that celebrities made public appeals and donated to a massive reward fund. Their legal fund has been underwritten by a British business tycoon (there's a good word to use now and again.)

But most significantly, Gerry McCann was able to meet with the Attorney General of the United States on just a few days' notice. There are thousands of American citizens who wish they had that ability--whatever you want to call it, it's certainly something I don't have.

ok i will conceed that they have managed very quickly to establish the fund and had lots of important ( read rich ) people on side very quickly - I always thought it was mainly because the case touched people in a way that others hadnt - but maybe there are people in high places making sure the cogs whirl away unfettered .

Most politicians in this country spend there careers avoiding any sort of a hint of scandal - at the moment Gordon Brown is under such severe pressure on so many fronts that if it were ever to come out he was involved in this case and the mccanns were found to be guilty then it could end him

but people have rallied behind Gerry and Kate - many people - Maybe there is more to it .......who knows

 

[docwho3]

I for one have not made up my mind about the case outcome.

I have followed this case from very early on.

Before the parents were considered suspects I posted that I was against people posting cruel things, and at that time unsupported things, as the parents were then reported by L.E. statements as being not under suspicion and were officially viewed as victims (as per several previously posted news reports quoting named L.E. officials.)

However when the parents were named as suspects I was then willing to look at them as possible perps in some sort of crime against the child whether intentional or accidental. That does not mean I became convinced of their guilt but just that I was willing to then consider the possibilities involved that could lead to that conclusion.

I also looked at the other possible suspects which were also reported in the news which included another named official suspect and also later came to include a child killer (suspected of being a serial killer of children) who had been known to be in the area when & where the mccann family was vacationing and even a van matching the description of his van was seen parked near the apartment for several days up to the disappearance of Madeleine (the van was not seen after the disappearance) and I also considered a russian suspect known to be associated with the named suspect murat and I always kept open a slot or two for as yet unknown individuals to surface as possible suspects in this case.

I am still looking at possibilities in this case and do not yet know enough evidence to come to a final conclusion.

There are several obstacles to concluding the parents did any crime or covered up for an accidental death. Not insurmountable obstacles but things that do present a problem, such as limited amount of time to react, plan and prepare and then hide a body related to any accidental death and there does not seem to be any evidence of premeditated crime by the parents against the child and little or no announced conclusive evidence to connect the parents to an accidental death at this time. This does not rule them out of course and I am still looking at how they might have managed it but these are points I have to be fair about and consider carefully.

There are also some news reports that do point to at least 3 other suspects as being possible perps in the disappearance of Madeleine, and who were in the vicinity and one of whom is a proven child killer. There is one named possible witness to the abduction and so far L.E. has not called her witness information a lie or a mistake in public quotes from named L.E. people. Whether I am inclined to believe her or not her information must be carefully considered by me until it can be disproven.

So far I still have a short suspect list that includes at least 6 people, including the two parents, any one or more of whom could have caused Madeleine's disappearance.

 

[Trino]

but people have rallied behind Gerry and Kate - many people - Maybe there is more to it .......who knows

Good observation. I wonder why some of these people rallied so quickly around the McCanns. Was it their educational level, their financial status, their medical positions, or because they knew the McCanns which made it unbelieveable that the McCanns could be involved in such a scandal? It would be interesting to note a list of who backed off from financial contributions and/or verbal support after the McCanns were named as suspects. Not that any of this helps to find Madeline, of course.

 

[Rino]

Good observation. I wonder why some of these people rallied so quickly around the McCanns. Was it their educational level, their financial status, their medical positions, or because they knew the McCanns which made it unbelieveable that the McCanns could be involved in such a scandal? It would be interesting to note a list of who backed off from financial contributions and/or verbal support after the McCanns were named as suspects. Not that any of this helps to find Madeline, of course.

Would be interesting, I know they are off the Vatican web site.

I don't think that Gordon Brown or anybody, high profile or not, will suffer if indeed the McCanns are found guilty. To offer help to parents out of the goodness of your heart in their time of need is not something to be punished for.

Finding Madeline is the top priority to us, of course. But it is truley my opinion that it is the very last thing the McCanns want.

 

[daffodil]

Would be interesting, I know they are off the Vatican web site.

I don't think that Gordon Brown or anybody, high profile or not, will suffer if indeed the McCanns are found guilty. To offer help to parents out of the goodness of your heart in their time of need is not something to be punished for.

Finding Madeline is the top priority to us, of course. But it is truley my opinion that it is the very last thing the McCanns want.

IF Gordon Brown did support the McCanns and IF they were found guilty people here would question his judgement and he would probably not be voted back into power so in that respect he would suffer.

 

[Niner]

Can you post the link to this article please Niner, I would like to read it, TIA!

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you... here's the link:
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/08/05/i-m-sorry-madeleine-98487-19573670/

 

[Tuba]

A plea for a bit of charity toward one another...we all come to this case with different life experiences & education & sensibilities. All of our perceptions are deeply affected by those histories and personal qualities. No one here turns the light of pure reason on the thin evidence we have. We are not instruments but human beings. We exaggerate some aspects of the mystery and diminish others, not because we wilfully decide to but because of who we are. The media distorts the situation surrounding this crime but our own prejudices distort it further. I think we arrive at warped results when we deny our known and known biases. It helps to actively explore them and to go over what leads us to our premature conclusions. As mentioned before, I really value all of the contributions posted here and they help me in my all-too-human & therefore, flawed thinking about this case. We all care about Madeleine and that is not in dispute. Thanks to everyone for taking the time and energy to pour out your thoughts here.

 

[Tuba]

It is those treacherous unknown biases that trip us up, more than our stubbornly & proudly held known biases. I mistyped that, sorry.

 

[Texana]

I really don't think Gordon Brown would lose his position based solely on support for the McCanns if they are proven guilty--not with so many celebrities such as J.K. Rowling throwing their very public and sizeable influence behind the McCanns.

It would be far more likely that by holding back he would be subject to more criticism.

 

[Pinkhammer]

Maybe we can discuss who is on our "short list" of suspects, as Dr. Who has done.

Mine would be, in this order: Gerry McCann; Kate McCann; Russell O'Brien; David Payne.

If pressed to name two more, it would be Murat and his Russian friend.