Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 24

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  • #481
Even in Texana's example we know someone was murdered while other people were present.

And it's hopelessly inaccurate IMO to say there was inaccurate and a hopelessly contradictory timeline in Madeleine's case.

The timelines given could only have been estimated times and given the circumstances and the fact they weren't using stop watches not contradictory.
It would have been very strange if their timelines matched exactly. :waitasec:

You missed my point. The question was, can a group of people keep quiet and act together to stop the investigation of a crime, and my real life example proved they most certainly can.

The time line is completely inaccurate not because of normal or understandable discrepancies, but because giant holes in the accounts from every one involved. The question isn't do the giant holes and gaping unanswered questions exist, it's why they exist.
 
  • #482
Excellent illustration - these people do not answer the basic questions - they DONT WANT THEM ADDRESSED - they didnt want to clear up the detail of the third of May - depite the fact that this would clear the decks to enable a focus on the possible abduction scenario - they know full well what happened to Madeleine and its DISTRACTION from the events of third of May thay want.


Agree!
 
  • #483
Excellent illustration - these people do not answer the basic questions - they DONT WANT THEM ADDRESSED - they didnt want to clear up the detail of the third of May - depite the fact that this would clear the decks to enable a focus on the possible abduction scenario - they know full well what happened to Madeleine and its DISTRACTION from the events of third of May thay want.

Well said. Clearing up the contradictions and inconsistent items would clarify any windows of time when a possible abductor might have been watching for an opportunity.

Instead, the inconsistent items make it impossible to tell what exactly was going on--a very convenient confusion factor if you don't want, as Refugee says very well, anyone to know what really went on during that time.
 
  • #484
april4sky wrote: "And it's hopelessly inaccurate IMO to say there was inaccurate and a hopelessly contradictory timeline in Madeleine's case"

REPLY: Oh!

In that case, april4sky, could you please enlighten us on the following:

1. When did Gerry start playing tennis that afternoon?
2. When did he stop playing because of an Achilles tendon?
3. When did he play with Wilkins that day?
4. When did he play with Julian that day?
5. Did he play with Dan after 6pm or not?
6. Did Kate go jogging from 4.30pm to 5.20pm or not?
7. Did both or either of the McCanns have high tea with Charlotte Pennington around 5.30pm/6.00pm?
8. When did Gerry McCann ask David Payne to go to the apartment?
9. Was this (a) because he was concerned about Kate or (b) to ask Kate and the children to come down and watch him playing tennis?
10. What time did David Payne go to the apartment?
11. Did Fiona Payne accompany him or not?
12. What time did David Payne leave the apartment?
13. Were the children already dressed - in white - and looking like angels, when he arrived?
14. What time did Gerry arrive back at the apartment?
15. Who read bedtime stories to the children - Kate, Gerry, or neither?
16. What time were the children bathed?
17. What time did Gerry open his bottle of Montana Sauvignon Blanc?
18. What time did Gerry and Kate arrive at the Tapas bar?
19. Were they first to arrive?
20. Did Matthew Oldfield do a check around 8.55pm, if not, what was he doing at the apartment at that time?
21. When did Gerry do his 9.00/9.05am check?
22. When was he talking to Jeremy Wilkins? - and on which side of the road?
23. When did Jane Tanner see the abductor?
24. Did Matthew Oldfield do a second check or not? If so, when?
25. Between what times was Russell O'Brien away from the Tapas bar?
26. What time did he return to the Tapas bar?
27. Did Jane Tanner return to the Tapas bar after seeing the abductor?
28. Was she on her way from the Tapas bar or going back to the Tapas bar when she saw the abductor?
29. Did Kate really sit and wait at 10.00pm, as she says, for 10 minutes in the apartment before sounding the alarm?
30. If the shutters could not be opened from the outside, who opened them and when?
31. Which door to the apartment did they leave unlocked, and why?

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Is this your list regarding "Contradictions?" :waitasec:

A list made up from rumours and smears. :rolleyes:

Can you confirm what and when the McCanns and their friends said or did everything on your "list" instead of reports attributed to them?

IMO neither you nor I know which are "fact."

As to the question regarding the timeline....

I still say IMO it's hopelessly inaccurate to say there was inaccurate and a hopelessly contradictory timeline in Madeleine's case"
 
  • #485
Replies to april4sky:

a4s: Is this your list regarding "Contradictions?"

TB : NO. See the 'Contradictions' thread which Texana has opened up a few days ago.

++++++++++

a4s: A list made up from rumours and smears.

TB: By no means entirely so. It is made up for example of formal statements from the Tapas 9, from Charlotte Pennington, from Russell O'Brien's hastily cobbled together timeline compiled just after Madeleine was reported misisng, from 'sources close to the McCanns' and 'sources close to the McCanns' legal team', from on-the-reecord sttaeemnts by Daviod Payne etc.

++++++++++

a4s: Can you confirm what and when the McCanns and their friends said or did everything on your "list" instead of reports attributed to them?

TB: No, but then the McCanns and their 'Tapas 9' friends could do that, but they choose to maintian their infamous 'Pact of Silence'. None of them is capable of giving a clear account, because the sheer volume of contradictions prove that they were really doing something else that evening

++++++++++

a4s:IMO neither you nor I know which are "fact."

TB: Then let the McCanns and their 'Tapas 9' friends now tell us. They haven't got the excuse of 'judicial secrecy' to hide behind any longer

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  • #486
Is this your list regarding "Contradictions?" :waitasec:

A list made up from rumours and smears. :rolleyes:

Can you confirm what and when the McCanns and their friends said or did everything on your "list" instead of reports attributed to them?

IMO neither you nor I know which are "fact."

As to the question regarding the timeline....

I still say IMO it's hopelessly inaccurate to say there was inaccurate and a hopelessly contradictory timeline in Madeleine's case"

As Tony says and I have said, the list can easily be addressed by the McCanns but they choose not to do so, they have left questions unanswered (Kates 48 questions) and fuelled speculation - seemingly deliberately, like the contradiction on Gerry's blog with Tanners well publicised Panorama timing of 'abductor' sighting.

Gerry and the others, as I have said before, DO NOT WANT TO CLEAR THE TIMELINE UP. If they wanted to get as accurate as possible and accept some confusion, then they would admit the confusion and clarify what they could.

Your argument has never been claimed by the McCanns, they do not claim 'understandable confusion' but claim 'regular checking' - they are stuck between a rock and a hard place - a need for there to be confusion and a need to prove they checked their children!

If, as you claim, this is a case of understandable inconsistency in timeline, then how can they claim accuracy of checking - how can they claim adequate and responsible parenting?

Come on April, admit it it, you dont think they did meet a standard of acceptable parenting do you! You think they were intoxicated, having a good time and not checking their kids properly! To claim the abduction, you know that they must have been neglecting the kids!

You are, in fact, trapped like they are, between two counter-claims!
 
  • #487
  • #488
Replies to april4sky:
a4s: Is this your list regarding "Contradictions?"
TB : NO. See the 'Contradictions' thread which Texana has opened up a few days ago.
++++++++++
a4s: A list made up from rumours and smears.
TB: By no means entirely so. It is made up for example of formal statements from the Tapas 9, from Charlotte Pennington, from Russell O'Brien's hastily cobbled together timeline compiled just after Madeleine was reported misisng, from 'sources close to the McCanns' and 'sources close to the McCanns' legal team', from on-the-reecord sttaeemnts by Daviod Payne etc.
I think sources proves my point.
Are there any two "confirmed facts" from the same person on your list where one "fact" contradicts the other?
a4s: Can you confirm what and when the McCanns and their friends said or did everything on your "list" instead of reports attributed to them?

TB: No, but then the McCanns and their 'Tapas 9' friends could do that, but they choose to maintian their infamous 'Pact of Silence'. None of them is capable of giving a clear account, because the sheer volume of contradictions prove that they were really doing something else that evening
As you said "No"
And no is the reason I have problem with it.

IMO they will put the record straight in their own time....not ours....and not through leaks!!
a4s:IMO neither you nor I know which are "fact."

TB: Then let the McCanns and their 'Tapas 9' friends now tell us. They haven't got the excuse of 'judicial secrecy' to hide behind any longer
They have only recently been given access to the Final report. :waitasec:
And their priority now is any information contained within the report that may help them in their search for Madeleine.
And because they haven't spoken out yet doesn't mean they won't!!
 
  • #489
I think sources proves my point.
Are there any two "confirmed facts" from the same person on your list where one "fact" contradicts the other?

As you said "No"
And no is the reason I have problem with it.

IMO they will put the record straight in their own time....not ours....and not through leaks!!
They have only recently been given access to the Final report. :waitasec:
And their priority now is any information contained within the report that may help them in their search for Madeleine.
And because they haven't spoken out yet doesn't mean they won't!!

Are you their spokesperson?

Their priority is finding Madeleine? That's a surprise, I thought their priority was self defence. I'd have thought identification of the precise opportunity which the phantom of PDL used and the times they were out and about (especially in the days leading up to 3rd May) would have been thought essential - and they would have left no stones unturned to assist the police investigation - even putting themselves at risk to do so.

Yet their first expense was on extradition (and others) lawyer and they have never publicly imagined any alternative scenarios to 'stranger abduction'.

It seems to me that they have created the fog - if they seriously expect people to contribute to a hunt or to support their 'stone turning' (though we have seen precious little of either evidence of hunting or of stone turning) then they need to clear up one or two little points for us (and more vitally - for the police!).

You act as if they owe the public nothing, yet they seek the public's support and blessing. Surely they and you realise that many of the public think they are child abusers and do not take them seriously because of it. They MUST prove that they are genuine if they expect support (and they do seem to need the public!).

If only they would admit, 'yes, we regret leaving the children alone and advise others never to take such risks with their precious children, we'd never have left our credit cards or mobile phones exposed to such a risk, so shouldn't have done so with our children! Never do as we did!' then perhaps we could rally around and support them. Sadly, they put self preservation first - not the 'hunt for Madeleine'!
 
  • #490
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1844546144/ref=sib_rdr_dp

Propaganda! Why cant we get a copy of the TRUE story! Who is this guy?

Why can't we get the TRUE story Refugee? That's probably primarily due to the McCanns agenda (AKA propaganda). Extremely aggravating that they won't cooperate to clarify things. Especially if it would mean that the LE in the country Maddie disappeared in, would keep looking for her!!

It's not rocket science.

refugee said:
"Who is this guy?"
What guy Refugee? Danny Collins? The author?
 
  • #491
Why can't we get the TRUE story Refugee? That's probably primarily due to the McCanns agenda (AKA propaganda). Extremely aggravating that they won't cooperate to clarify things. Especially if it would mean that the LE in the country Maddie disappeared in, would keep looking for her!!

It's not rocket science.

What guy Refugee? Danny Collins? The author?

Yes. Just a rhetoric exclamation! Obviously working for the publicity and propaganda machine!
 
  • #492
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  • #494
  • #495
Snipped for space...
...You act as if they owe the public nothing, yet they seek the public's support and blessing. Surely they and you realise that many of the public think they are child abusers and do not take them seriously because of it. They MUST prove that they are genuine if they expect support (and they do seem to need the public!).

If only they would admit, 'yes, we regret leaving the children alone and advise others never to take such risks with their precious children, we'd never have left our credit cards or mobile phones exposed to such a risk, so shouldn't have done so with our children! Never do as we did!' then perhaps we could rally around and support them. Sadly, they put self preservation first - not the 'hunt for Madeleine'!

EXACTLY. Thank you. They have asked the public for money on numerous occasions. CM tells us to send our checks to the MCCanns...Just stick it in an envelope and address it to "Gerry & Kate" ...they'll get it :eek:. It amazes me that people still continue to donate, without something in return. I wouldn't donate to a fund where a detailed profit and loss statement, along with a balance sheet was not available at least quarterly. But that's just the accountant in me talking...I suppose some give their last pound to the McCanns and go without. Those people deserve to know the truth, though, if they are so stupid to blindly trust the McCanns, I guess they deserve to go hungry. (I think about the hundreds of people who gave every dime they had to Jim Jones on these occasions, and we all know what happened to them.):furious:
 
  • #496
EXACTLY. Thank you. They have asked the public for money on numerous occasions. CM tells us to send our checks to the MCCanns...Just stick it in an envelope and address it to "Gerry & Kate" ...they'll get it :eek:. It amazes me that people still continue to donate, without something in return. I wouldn't donate to a fund where a detailed profit and loss statement, along with a balance sheet was not available at least quarterly. But that's just the accountant in me talking...I suppose some give their last pound to the McCanns and go without. Those people deserve to know the truth, though, if they are so stupid to blindly trust the McCanns, I guess they deserve to go hungry. (I think about the hundreds of people who gave every dime they had to Jim Jones on these occasions, and we all know what happened to them.):furious:


I share your annoyance! I'd share the view that people deserve what they get, if it weren't children and naive grannies giving their pocket money and pension money, respectively!
 
  • #497
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  • #499
  • #500
Hours after the disappearance of the little English girl, the McCanns used the covers of children’s story books that belonged to their daughter, to write down details of the evening

Hours after Madeleine disappeared, the English girl’s parents tore the covers of two children’s books that the child enjoyed leafing through before going to sleep, to write down the details of the evening of the disappearance.


There, according to what can be verified by the pages that have been appended to the process, Madeleine’s parents noted the periodicity of the visits to the rooms where the various children slept and who within the group of English people had verified that nothing out of the ordinary was taking place.

The PJ appended those documents to the process on September 9 of last year, then referring that the same had been apprehended by the GNR on the night that the girl stopped being seen.

The importance of the book covers was related to the fact that the PJ considers that there was a manipulation of the testimonies – the depositions between the elements of the group were combined in a detailed manner. That was the motive why those pieces of evidence were gathered only after Gerry and Kate were made arguidos, at a time when they had already formally assumed that they were suspects.

To the authorities, it was then an important detail at that moment in the investigation, because it revealed the little girl’s parent’s concern in protecting themselves from possible responsibilities, overshadowing the preservation of objects that belonged to the child at a moment in time when she had only been missing for a few hours.

Which led the authorities to admit that there could have been a manipulation of testimonies.

Son of player confounded with child

English tourists confounded the son of Dino Drpic, a football player for Dynamo of Zagreb, with Madeleine McCann and tried to remove the child from his mother, according to the Croatian press. The case took place on the island of Krk, when the tourists confounded the little English girl with the son of Dino and Nives Drpic, aged two and a half. Upon seeing blonde Leone Drpic, a British child was convinced that it was Maddie and warned her parents. The parents, after taking a few photographs from a distance, came closer to the little boy and tried to take him. “There was a moment when she got hold of his arm, apparently believing that nobody was watching him [the boy]. As soon as I approached, she realized her mistake and apologized”, said Nives Drpic.

Details

Reconstitution – The reconstitution of the evening of the disappearance, which never took place because the English weren’t available to return to Portugal, was fundamental to understand all the steps that were made by the elements of the group that evening. The PJ intended to determine at exactly what time the little girl had gone missing.

Photo-fit – Jane Tanner asserted that she had seen a stranger at around 9 p.m., carrying a child. She admitted that it had been the abductor and explained that Gerry was very close to her when she saw him. A photo-fit was made, but the authorities always considered that her deposition was not credible.

Timeline – Maddie was last seen, by persons other than her parents and siblings, at around 5.30 p.m.

source: Correio da Manhã 18.08.2008, paper edition
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...=53176&page=17


Sad, selfish people!
 
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