Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 24

[Barnaby]

I don't think it was several, but perhaps four or less. I think that as doctors, they were all by nature and education/training very able to think objectively.

Madeleine has passed away due to some unfortunate accident. (Overdose of sedation medicine, fall, etc.) It was a tragic accident that could happen to any of us. Therefore, we stick together (a select few) and protect the McCanns from losing their other children...and their careers. We're not covering up a crime, we're saving our dear friends from losing their remaining two children as well.

They are highly motivated to keep it secret, and well aided in that by the McCanns and Clarence Mitchell, etc, etc.

Again, you have to remember that these are doctors or highly skilled professionals who are very self-disciplined people. They have both the ability and the will to carry out something they find motivating.

I think that after the reports about Gerry & Payne that there were more than 4 people involved in this. Originally I thought the O'Briens & the McCanns now I am thinking the Paynes as well so that only leaves the Oldfields out? I doubt it, I think they are all in it up to their necks! Only total risk of incrimination could keep this bunch together, no decent human being who was totally innocent would keep quiet when such a heinous crime was involved!

& furthermore, I believe that Diane Webster knows the truth also, She sat calmly at the table when the alarm was raised, not the actions of an elderly lady who would by normal standards probably panic more than younger people. She was not surprised, she knew!

 

[april4sky]

Why do you claim the PJ are corrupt! They didnt neglect the McCanns kids did they! Why are you having a go at the police! Are you saying they ought to have been babysitting! Surely you accept that Madeleine was too young to be left babysitting the twins?

The were abandoned, but they weren't charged - and we all know why that was dont we!

But I am intrigued, why would a mother 'desperate to do anything' to get her child back, to leave no stone unturned, refuse to do anything - even put her own freedom at risk?? Explain to me, as I am obviously a bit dull and dont follow your argument.

Refugee all of your questions have been discussed and answered here many times and you will find all of my views as well as everyone elses if you care to read the threads.
With the Final report the case has moved on and we are now learning the difference between what was fact and what was smear...at last.
We have yet to hear from the McCanns and their friends...and I believe we will.

 

[Refugee]

Refugee all of your questions have been discussed and answered here many times and you will find all of my views as well as everyone elses if you care to read the threads.
With the Final report the case has moved on and we are now learning the difference between what was fact and what was smear...at last.
We have yet to hear from the McCanns and their friends...and I believe we will.

I don't believe we will, bless you for your naivete though! The world is richer for the innocent!

I appreciate you cannot conceive of the evil doing of these people, they themselves may no realise that to conceal a body and to seek to profit from it is wrong. I suspect that is the case for Kate, who seems to have wrapped herself in a belief that her life is perfect. Even the neglect of her child is 'wrapped in ribbons'. we know, for example, that she was aware that her child had awoken alone in the dark and in a strange place - yet she does not seem to accept the loneliness this would bring, she tries to pretend it did not even happen!

As to things having been discussed before, of course they have, yet they have not been resolved. I appreciate that your faith is being tested and there are some questions which make you feel uncomfortable as you realise that you cannot explain them and you are beginning to realise that these are not saints and their life was not the perfect life Kate tries to tell us it was.

But until we have resolved to complete satisfaction issues such as Gerry thinking aloud on that video that the twins might have been sedated but, incredibly, not having them tested! There are so many inconsistencies unresolved, until they are resolved, we must not allow them to be consigned to history!

So, be aware, sending me off to read threads instead of explaining your unsubstantiated opinions will not work with this individual!

I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever of abduction and a blind belief is no different to a blind faith in, for example, a god! Luckily for Madeleine and other innocents, such as yourself, people like me are not easy to dislodge! I believe the child was badly treated, a duty of care to her was failed, it resulted in harm, it is a clear legal tort and the perpetrators of that wrong are known to us. In the absence of any other clear wrong, we must make do with the one which is proven, the tort of negligence - the perpetrators are the parents who failed a little innocent child. Thank goodness the twins didnt go the same way!

 

[april4sky]

I don't believe we will, bless you for your naivete though! The world is richer for the innocent!

I appreciate you cannot conceive of the evil doing of these people, they themselves may no realise that to conceal a body and to seek to profit from it is wrong. I suspect that is the case for Kate, who seems to have wrapped herself in a belief that her life is perfect. Even the neglect of her child is 'wrapped in ribbons'. we know, for example, that she was aware that her child had awoken alone in the dark and in a strange place - yet she does not seem to accept the loneliness this would bring, she tries to pretend it did not even happen!

As to things having been discussed before, of course they have, yet they have not been resolved. I appreciate that your faith is being tested and there are some questions which make you feel uncomfortable as you realise that you cannot explain them and you are beginning to realise that these are not saints and their life was not the perfect life Kate tries to tell us it was.

But until we have resolved to complete satisfaction issues such as Gerry thinking aloud on that video that the twins might have been sedated but, incredibly, not having them tested! There are so many inconsistencies unresolved, until they are resolved, we must not allow them to be consigned to history!

So, be aware, sending me off to read threads instead of explaining your unsubstantiated opinions will not work with this individual!

I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever of abduction and a blind belief is no different to a blind faith in, for example, a god! Luckily for Madeleine and other innocents, such as yourself, people like me are not easy to dislodge! I believe the child was badly treated, a duty of care to her was failed, it resulted in harm, it is a clear legal tort and the perpetrators of that wrong are known to us. In the absence of any other clear wrong, we must make do with the one which is proven, the tort of negligence - the perpetrators are the parents who failed a little innocent child. Thank goodness the twins didnt go the same way!

Believe what you will Refugee...No worries

 

[Barnaby]

I don't believe we will, bless you for your naivete though! The world is richer for the innocent!

I appreciate you cannot conceive of the evil doing of these people, they themselves may no realise that to conceal a body and to seek to profit from it is wrong. I suspect that is the case for Kate, who seems to have wrapped herself in a belief that her life is perfect. Even the neglect of her child is 'wrapped in ribbons'. we know, for example, that she was aware that her child had awoken alone in the dark and in a strange place - yet she does not seem to accept the loneliness this would bring, she tries to pretend it did not even happen!

As to things having been discussed before, of course they have, yet they have not been resolved. I appreciate that your faith is being tested and there are some questions which make you feel uncomfortable as you realise that you cannot explain them and you are beginning to realise that these are not saints and their life was not the perfect life Kate tries to tell us it was.

But until we have resolved to complete satisfaction issues such as Gerry thinking aloud on that video that the twins might have been sedated but, incredibly, not having them tested! There are so many inconsistencies unresolved, until they are resolved, we must not allow them to be consigned to history!

So, be aware, sending me off to read threads instead of explaining your unsubstantiated opinions will not work with this individual!

I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever of abduction and a blind belief is no different to a blind faith in, for example, a god! Luckily for Madeleine and other innocents, such as yourself, people like me are not easy to dislodge! I believe the child was badly treated, a duty of care to her was failed, it resulted in harm, it is a clear legal tort and the perpetrators of that wrong are known to us. In the absence of any other clear wrong, we must make do with the one which is proven, the tort of negligence - the perpetrators are the parents who failed a little innocent child. Thank goodness the twins didnt go the same way!

I totally agree with everything you say in regard to the McCanns Refugee but I do not think that you should equate a blind faith in the McCanns to a blind faith in a God. Many people here I am sure believe in their God, whichever God that might be.
The way your comment is phrased it is demeaning a blind belief in a God (which is a concept of good) & that may offend some & cannot be equated to blindly believing in those who have openly done wrong & who continually lie about circumstances.

 

[Refugee]

I totally agree with everything you say in regard to the McCanns Refugee but I do not think that you should equate a blind faith in the McCanns to a blind faith in a God. Many people here I am sure believe in their God, whichever God that might be.
The way your comment is phrased it is demeaning a blind belief in a God (which is a concept of good) & that may offend some & cannot be equated to blindly believing in those who have openly done wrong & who continually lie about circumstances.

Perhaps, but I chose to liken it because, well, its very alike! The belief in anything without any evidence and the refusal to question that belief is to go down a dead end. A faith which cannot survive a challenge is flawed.

Personally I don't believe in an all powerful deity, to me it makes no sense to 'pray for Madeleine' when it would have been the very same deity one prayed to who was actually responsible for her plight! But it is the McCanns who are using religion as a smokescreen not I, so I will not pursue the debate!

But I will say this, just like those who believe in a god, I have a right not to believe in a god! It is a bit unfair that those who believe are allowed to make religious statements, but those who dont are told we must keep quiet and respect the beliefs of the god fearing!

So I say 'I dont pray for Madeleine - I hope for her' as I think its the equivalent to saying 'Pray for Madeleine'

 

[Refugee]

Believe what you will Refugee...No worries

Know what I know April - and deep inside you know it too!

The McCanns 100% did not take enough care of their child - not once, but every night - and who knows in what other ways they failed her, before they finally ran out of luck (or rather, the poor child did!).

So consider not the parents, consider the child!

 

[Claycat]

So consider not the parents, consider the child!

Several of us would love to consider the child, but most of the people in this thread talk of nothing except the parents!

 

[april4sky]

Know what I know April - and deep inside you know it too!

The McCanns 100% did not take enough care of their child - not once, but every night - and who knows in what other ways they failed her, before they finally ran out of luck (or rather, the poor child did!).
So consider not the parents, consider the child!

Well Refugee I will continue to consider Madeleine and her parents....as is my right.
You of course will do as you please.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Ooh, this post was almost too disturbing to contemplate, but I do have a comment re the other children, or rather about transplant patients.
The steroids (or whatever) they must take generally result in a moon-faced appearance. So in the unlikely event that you ever see any of the kids, that would be a giveaway.

Not all transplant patients are on steroids for life...you can not count on this side effect as diagnostic.

 

[twinkiesmom]

iW, can't help with your query, the main area of interest I had with the children was why both Jane Tanner and Kate McCann had to have their IVF treatment in Holland, not the U.K. - after all, we have very good IVF facilities here, I think.

I speculated as to whether either or both children had been the result of artificial insemination from a third party donor or even whether there had been an illegal adoption - that speculation was increased when Gerry McCann appeared to make Freudian slips like: "We're focussed now on our own children" and a reference to Madeleine being 'her' [Kate's] child in an interview with Spanish TV last autumn. The speculation was further fuelled by a most strange interview given by Kate on which she described here pregnancy with Madele in such a vague, distant and disconnected way that I really wondered if she ever was pregnant with Madeleine. Perhaps some of the ladies on here can recall or retrieve that interview and correct me if I'm wrong.

But there was no way I was going to get any answers on any of the above.


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I know enough as an IVF survivor to know that they can do IVF with individual sperm...The only reason to go with donor is that they were unable to get any viable sperm or no viable embryos resulted from fertilization attempt (more likely to be result of poor egg quality).

It doesn't seem very likely that Madeleine would have been conceived with donor eggs and/or sperm and then the twins were both Kate and Gerry's... It's possible but doesn't seem likely to me....Madeleine and the twins do appear to be full biological siblings just based on appearance.

What does seem possible to me is that Kate and/or Gerry has mentally divorced Madeleine as their child, due to her alleged possible disability or simply temperment. Or they've mentally divorced her because they know she's dead and embraced Sean and Amelie because they're living.

It does seem they were in over their heads with 3 children when they may have only wanted 2. My mother-in-law always said the third child was the backbreaker. I personally know how difficult it is to maintain the illusion of maternal control with a headstrong, impossible child while meeting professional and family obligations. And Kate didn't have the outlet of overeating like I do :innocent:

Wouldn't someone have come forward by now if Kate was just passing Madeleine off as her own with no visible pregnancy? I would think a pillow would be hard to hide on a doctor with an active practice and Kate's willowy frame. I don't think their plotting goes back that far (Occam's razor).

 

[Tony Bennett]

twinkiesmon,

All your points seem valid and well made to me.

By the way, were you aware that the twins were also IVF?

Here's the article I was thinking of - a controversial one penned by Lori Campbell who had parallel accounts in the 'Independent' and in the 'Sunday Mirror' (dumbed-down version for 'Mirror' readers!) on 5 August 2007.

I will bold the passages which made me wonder about the pregnancy. I think the couple were in Holland during the 9 months before Madeleine was born:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

QUOTE FROM KATE McCANN TALKING TO LORI CAMPBELL, 5 AUGUST 2007 IN 'THE INDEPENDENT'

The one thing I have always been definite about is that I wanted to be a mother. Then when we were trying for a baby and it wasn't happening, it was really hard. The longer it went on, the harder it was. I saw my friends having children and I was really delighted for them, but it made me feel sad too.

We tried unsuccessfully for several years to conceive. There came a point when we admitted we needed help. I was so desperate to have a child I'd try anything. I know IVF isn't everyone's choice, but I wanted to try it.

By that stage I was happy to start the treatment because it was taking the pressure off us a bit. We had one unsuccessful attempt before Madeleine, and that was very hard. But when I got pregnant with Madeleine it was just fantastic. It didn't seem true. I did a test at home so I could handle the result if it wasn't good. I was looking at it thinking 'I don't believe that'. Then I went to the hospital and they checked it. I was really excited.

Madeleine's birth

Once we were past 12 weeks we were telling everyone. I swam every day until the day she was born to keep us both healthy. It was a really uncomplicated pregnancy. I had no sickness, nothing. It was so easy. I didn't know I was having a girl until she was born. [She smiles] There she was, perfect. She was lovely. She had the most beautiful face. I'd thought I was going to have a boy, just based on instinct. That actually made it even more special that she was a girl.

The first five or six months were really difficult. She had very bad colic and cried about 18 hours a day. She had to be picked up all the time. So I spent many a day dancing round the living room holding Madeleine.

I remember trying to butter my toast with one hand and holding her in the other. We would watch the clock and Gerry would come home and there would be three of us. Sometimes she just looked so sad with colic, and the three of us would be cuddled together trying to get her through it. Like a lot of things, you go through that difficult, bad stage and it tightens that bond. We've both got an incredible bond with Madeleine.

UNQUOTE

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[Refugee]

Well Refugee I will continue to consider Madeleine and her parents....as is my right.
You of course will do as you please.

I will never give these excuses for parents consideration, as they didnt give their own child consideration. You are not accepting reality - not considering the child or other children.

The neglect going unpunished sends a signal to parents everywhere that it is acceptable to put yourself before you children. It is NOT acceptable.

Perhaps it is your plan to begin a socety for the protection of negligent parents?:laugh:

 

[Refugee]

twinkiesmon,

All your points seem valid and well made to me.

By the way, were you aware that the twins were also IVF?

Here's the article I was thinking of - a controversial one penned by Lori Campbell who had parallel accounts in the 'Independent' and in the 'Sunday Mirror' (dumbed-down version for 'Mirror' readers!) on 5 August 2007.

I will bold the passages which made me wonder about the pregnancy. I think the couple were in Holland during the 9 months before Madeleine was born:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

QUOTE FROM KATE McCANN TALKING TO LORI CAMPBELL, 5 AUGUST 2007 IN 'THE INDEPENDENT'

The one thing I have always been definite about is that I wanted to be a mother. Then when we were trying for a baby and it wasn't happening, it was really hard. The longer it went on, the harder it was. I saw my friends having children and I was really delighted for them, but it made me feel sad too.

We tried unsuccessfully for several years to conceive. There came a point when we admitted we needed help. I was so desperate to have a child I'd try anything. I know IVF isn't everyone's choice, but I wanted to try it.

By that stage I was happy to start the treatment because it was taking the pressure off us a bit. We had one unsuccessful attempt before Madeleine, and that was very hard. But when I got pregnant with Madeleine it was just fantastic. It didn't seem true. I did a test at home so I could handle the result if it wasn't good. I was looking at it thinking 'I don't believe that'. Then I went to the hospital and they checked it. I was really excited.

Madeleine's birth

Once we were past 12 weeks we were telling everyone. I swam every day until the day she was born to keep us both healthy. It was a really uncomplicated pregnancy. I had no sickness, nothing. It was so easy. I didn't know I was having a girl until she was born. [She smiles] There she was, perfect. She was lovely. She had the most beautiful face. I'd thought I was going to have a boy, just based on instinct. That actually made it even more special that she was a girl.

The first five or six months were really difficult. She had very bad colic and cried about 18 hours a day. She had to be picked up all the time. So I spent many a day dancing round the living room holding Madeleine.

I remember trying to butter my toast with one hand and holding her in the other. We would watch the clock and Gerry would come home and there would be three of us. Sometimes she just looked so sad with colic, and the three of us would be cuddled together trying to get her through it. Like a lot of things, you go through that difficult, bad stage and it tightens that bond. We've both got an incredible bond with Madeleine.

UNQUOTE

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A bond which involves abandoning your children night after night to go drinking with your pals is indeed INCREDIBLE!!!!

Incidentally, someone loves the word 'incredible' don't they!

 

[Barnaby]

Perhaps, but I chose to liken it because, well, its very alike! The belief in anything without any evidence and the refusal to question that belief is to go down a dead end. A faith which cannot survive a challenge is flawed.

Personally I don't believe in an all powerful deity, to me it makes no sense to 'pray for Madeleine' when it would have been the very same deity one prayed to who was actually responsible for her plight! But it is the McCanns who are using religion as a smokescreen not I, so I will not pursue the debate!

But I will say this, just like those who believe in a god, I have a right not to believe in a god! It is a bit unfair that those who believe are allowed to make religious statements, but those who dont are told we must keep quiet and respect the beliefs of the god fearing!

So I say 'I dont pray for Madeleine - I hope for her' as I think its the equivalent to saying 'Pray for Madeleine'

Absolutely I agree that everyone has the right to their beliefs Refugee, not wishing to pursue the debate either, it is not the place but I have to make one comment; God, any person's God is not responsible for what happened to Madeleine. Everyone on this earth has responsibilities & free will whether to fulfill them or not. The McCanns had a precious 3 year old child they chose to neglect her at best. They are entirely responsible for whatever happened her noone else!

I also agree with you that the McCanns were total hypocrites & used religion to create the illusion that they were/are decent people!

 

[tuppence]

I haven't followed this case closely enough to have a strong opinion on what happened BUT it's very hard to swallow a conspiracy where several people must all keep a secret on such a death. That just defies logic to me. I've seen such theories bandied about in cases and can't think of anytime that has ended up being the solution.

You can argue that we just don't know if any such cases because the secret was never found out but that's not really valid reasoning because if this type of crime really goes on there would be examples of people who got caught (in fact a higher % of crimes with multiple people involved should end up getting found out).

For those of you convinced of the mass conspiracy angle can you give me examples of other cases like this?

 

[Tony Bennett]

tuppence wrote "I haven't followed this case closely enough to have a strong opinion on what happened BUT it's very hard to swallow a conspiracy where several people must all keep a secret on such a death".

++++++

REPLY: tuppence, I spent 18 months investigating the death of Stuart Lubbock at Michaal Barrymore's house in 2001 (and wrote a book on the case). Nine people were there that evening. Stuart died, that leaves eight.

Every single one of those eight knows what happened to Stuart, but won't say. At the Coroner's Inquest in 2002, the lady Coroner referred to a 'wall of silence' that had prevented the truth from coming out. Maybe that reminds you of the 'Tapas 9's 'Pact of Silence' in the Madeleine McCann case?

In another Essex case which I have investigated, 19 people were having a late night, crack cocaine- and alcohol-fuelled party in Warley, near Brentwood a few years ago. One attendee was shot dead at about 3am. No-one has talked, meaning that the killer remains free and has never been charged. No-one dare give a statement to the police, to the frustration and despair of the bereaved father.

Fear by the way is not the only reason why people in this situation will not talk

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[Barnaby]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53176&page=17

snipped!

“…………………………………………

Gerry explains disappearance with paedophilia

Only a few hours after Maddie disappeared from Praia da Luz, in the Algarve, her father, Gerry McCann, said during a phone conversation that the little English girl, then aged three, had been the victim of a sequestration by a paedophile network. Gerry’s words were later narrated to the Polícia Judiciária by another English citizen who was on holidays at the Ocean Club. This tourist listened to the phone call, without his presence being noticed by Gerry………………………………….”!


Why would Gerry presume this after just a few hours? Most peculiar!

 

[SleuthMom]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53176&page=17

snipped!

“…………………………………………

Gerry explains disappearance with paedophilia

Only a few hours after Maddie disappeared from Praia da Luz, in the Algarve, her father, Gerry McCann, said during a phone conversation that the little English girl, then aged three, had been the victim of a sequestration by a paedophile network. Gerry’s words were later narrated to the Polícia Judiciária by another English citizen who was on holidays at the Ocean Club. This tourist listened to the phone call, without his presence being noticed by Gerry………………………………….”!


Why would Gerry presume this after just a few hours? Most peculiar!

Now that's very interesting, so what's all that talk that he hopes whoever kidnapped Maddie treats her like a princess? :steamed: SINCE WHEN PEDOPHILES DO THAT???!!!!:banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[Barnaby]

Now that's very interesting, so what's all that talk that he hopes whoever kidnapped Maddie treats her like a princess? :steamed: SINCE WHEN PEDOPHILES DO THAT???!!!!:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Too right Sleuthmom but then when did Gerry ever say anything that made sense or remotely resembled the truth?