Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #16

[Newthoughts]

I think PF was best placed to know exactly where the crying was coming from since it was her home and she would have been very familiar with noise penetration and the direction from which it was coming. She said she was in no doubt that it was from the floor below her. She also said she heard the patio doors open. I see no reason whatsoever to doubt her word.


P.J. POLICE FILES: MRS PAMELA FENN STATEMENT

I can't see any reason at all to doubt her testimony either. I also think KMs statement about MM asking why KM didn't come when she was crying is relevant along. And the fact KM said 'they've taken her' rather than 'someone's taken her' which is unusual

Makes me think MM could have reported / interpreted a real event, like somebody being in the appt, as a nightmare the import of which didn't become apparent till that night.

But that's my speculation and against it is the fact I'm sure KM would have reported it to LE

 

[Lenk]

There is no evidence however there is speculation and in particular, regarding the age of the victims.
Madeleine McCann suspect 'has psychopathic traits' and may be a 'total weakling'

Thanks for posting this article. The information seems very odd -- such as this line: "He might be psychopathic, which means antisocial plus narcissistic personality disorder." I'm not sure where they get that. Psychopathy isn't an actual diagnosis -- it's basically interchangeable with sociopathy. Sometimes people use psychopathy to designate criminal behaviors, but that already is included under the definition of being a sociopath.

 

[Ardoch]

Thanks for posting this article. The information seems very odd -- such as this line: "He might be psychopathic, which means antisocial plus narcissistic personality disorder." I'm not sure where they get that. Psychopathy isn't an actual diagnosis -- it's basically interchangeable with sociopathy. Sometimes people use psychopathy to designate criminal behaviors, but that already is included under the definition of being a sociopath.

I quoted it because it had a name of a forensic scientist attached to it however it's a 'red top' newspaper - anything could have been inadvertently misquoted.

 

[JugsAndTugs]

I think so. Sociopaths are very manipulative and calculating, even when being 'nice.' There's no empathy, so human interactions become something to strategize.

Feel like I have ran into enough of them in the past week alone lmao.

 

[tedtink]

Thanks for posting this article. The information seems very odd -- such as this line: "He might be psychopathic, which means antisocial plus narcissistic personality disorder." I'm not sure where they get that. Psychopathy isn't an actual diagnosis -- it's basically interchangeable with sociopathy. Sometimes people use psychopathy to designate criminal behaviors, but that already is included under the definition of being a sociopath.

Yes I agree.
Some Forensic Psychologists and others prefer to differentiate between Sociopath and Psychopath based on evaluating the actual crime that has been committed and the behavior of the perp.
I know the debate rolls on and we don't like to 'label', but I still tend to make a distinction with criminals only, if a perp commits a crime that seems erratic, impulsive with lack of planning, then I would suggest sociopath traits as opposed to the calculated, detailed, meticulously planned crime of a psychopath.
But I realise even these behaviors can overlap too.

I don't think a report in the Daily Mail saying CB could have ASPD would get the clicks they'd like!

 

[Okapi]

I can't see any reason at all to doubt her testimony either. I also think KMs statement about MM asking why KM didn't come when she was crying is relevant along. And the fact KM said 'they've taken her' rather than 'someone's taken her' which is unusual

Makes me think MM could have reported / interpreted a real event, like somebody being in the appt, as a nightmare the import of which didn't become apparent till that night.

But that's my speculation and against it is the fact I'm sure KM would have reported it to LE

I also think that's plausible, the abductor was scouting the apartment and may have aborted an initial abduction attempt. I think abduction was always his plan, however he may have snooped around too.

Perhaps KM, even in retrospect, thought that someone had been in the apartment. Things may have been moved/disturbed. As in the HB case. Because your mind would cast back trying to make sense of the travesty, maybe trying to explain MM's upset the previous night. I posted a link way back during the last cadaver dogs discussion, which indicated that they alerted to KM's clothes. And also the master bedroom wardrobe?(IIRR).

In any case, MOO naturally...

 

[redplanet]

I also think that's plausible, the abductor was scouting the apartment and may have aborted an initial abduction attempt. I think abduction was always his plan, however he may have snooped around too.

Perhaps KM, even in retrospect, thought that someone had been in the apartment. Things may have been moved/disturbed. As in the HB case. Because your mind would cast back trying to make sense of the travesty, maybe trying to explain MM's upset the previous night. I posted a link way back during the last cadaver dogs discussion, which indicated that they alerted to KM's clothes. And also the master bedroom wardrobe?(IIRR).

In any case, MOO naturally...

What you have suggested is interesting Okapi, that if there was an intruder, he perhaps may have accessed that wardrobe ???

 

[redplanet]

RM, SM, KM, GM were all expected to be in the mast zone.

This article from Dec ‘07 raises the possibility Police were using triangulation & signal strength to identify people in Luz in the time frame. Madeleine police trace EVERY phone call made on day she vanishedMadeleine police trace EVERY phone call made on day she vanished

The lady's call to hubby as mentioned in article was possibly one of the calls at about 21:50 in this list, which the PJ generated to cover the period of the Smith sighting.
Madeleine police trace EVERY phone call made on day she vanished
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/OA_11V/Relatorio_de_analise dos_primeiros_11_volumes_Page91.jpg

 

[redplanet]

I can't see any reason at all to doubt her testimony either. I also think KMs statement about MM asking why KM didn't come when she was crying is relevant along. And the fact KM said 'they've taken her' rather than 'someone's taken her' which is unusual

Makes me think MM could have reported / interpreted a real event, like somebody being in the appt, as a nightmare the import of which didn't become apparent till that night.

But that's my speculation and against it is the fact I'm sure KM would have reported it to LE

The patio doors which PF heard opening were not those of 5B, because the adults at 5B left their patio doors securely bolted every evening during the meal, and went in and out through their door on the car park side (statements MO/RO).

 

[misty48]

The patio doors which PF heard opening were not those of 5B, because the adults at 5B left their patio doors securely bolted every evening during the meal, and went in and out through their door on the car park side (statements MO/RO).

PF would not have known who was going in or out the patio door at that specific time unless she physically saw them.
It's a pity PF wasn't asked if she heard the patio doors opening/closing on any other occasions that week which would at least confirm checks on the children were being made using that entrance.

 

[misty48]

Is there any reason the mobile Brueckner supposedly had in his possession on 3rd May 2007 couldn't have been tracked using historical GPS data? It's likely the phone itself had been stolen at some stage but the SIM number on the phone credit had been shared with at least one other person.

 

[redplanet]

PF would not have known who was going in or out the patio door at that specific time unless she physically saw them.
It's a pity PF wasn't asked if she heard the patio doors opening/closing on any other occasions that week which would at least confirm checks on the children were being made using that entrance.

didnt see but i guess she just naturally assumed it was one or other (or both) of the parents opening the patio doors especially as the crying stopped then.
I agree the checking system on nights before 3rd is not described much.

 

[redplanet]

Is there any reason the mobile Brueckner supposedly had in his possession on 3rd May 2007 couldn't have been tracked using historical GPS data? It's likely the phone itself had been stolen at some stage but the SIM number on the phone credit had been shared with at least one other person.

question is did the phone (model not known) have gps?

 

[misty48]

didnt see but i guess she just naturally assumed it was one or other (or both) of the parents opening the patio doors especially as the crying stopped then.
I agree the checking system on nights before 3rd is not described much.

PF also wouldn't have known that the occupants of 5B had closed & locked their patio door that night. IMO she made an assumption about the source of the alleged crying & sound of the patio doors based on what she later learned about events on Thursday 3rd May.

 

[misty48]

question is did the phone (model not known) have gps?

We don't know but if it did that would explain why German police can place the phone so close to OC at 8pm on 3rd May. The Nokia N95 was a new & expensive commodity in 2007 which would have been particularly attractive to thieves.

 

[Tabech29]

I guess they did collect this evidence back then?

Subject: Request for the preservation of data relating to mobile telecommunications


As it of interest to the ongoing investigation NUIPC 201/07.0 GALGS which is investing the ABDUCTION of the English girl Madeleine McCann, we URGENTLY ask that a request is made to the competent authorities for the following:

- The telephone operators TMN, Vodaphone and Optimus be asked for the preservation and conservation in digital format (CD or DVD) of all the information relating to MOBILE PHONE TRAFFIC, including roaming calls, with an indication of the mobile phone numbers, date and time of the telephone conversations that took place on 2, 3 and 4th May 2007 with respect to the mobile phones that cover the following geographical locations:

Apartment:

N – 37,088863 // N37º 5’ 19,91”

W – 8,730775...// W 8º 43’50, 79”

Tapas Restaurant

N – 37,088378 // N37º 5’ 18,16”

W – 8,730979...// W 8º 43’51, 52”


Both locations are situated in the OC resort next to Rua Agostinho da Silva and Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins in P da L.

This inquiry aims to preserve information of relative importance that could in the future help the investigation to discover the truth of the facts.

I bring this to your attention

Inspector Ricardo Paiva

 

[Okapi]

What you have suggested is interesting Okapi, that if there was an intruder, he perhaps may have accessed that wardrobe ???

Oh gosh I'm nearly certain that's what I read, but I'll have to excavate back into the threads to double check the link

 

[mrjitty]

Is there any reason the mobile Brueckner supposedly had in his possession on 3rd May 2007 couldn't have been tracked using historical GPS data? It's likely the phone itself had been stolen at some stage but the SIM number on the phone credit had been shared with at least one other person.

The problem is that GPS is a passive satellite radio signal that allows devices to position themselves, not data held by a phone company.

In modern times, most devices have a GPS receiver and have locational data enabled. So this combination of GPS and cellular data can very accurately position the device and police can get that data. e.g we've just seen in the Chad Daybell case that a device was very accurately located by the google map pins stored in real time in the killers google account. By getting a warrant for the google data - the case was blown open.

So in 2007, it would depend on what device the user had as to whether it even had GPS in the first place. But even if it did, there is no guarantee that data was being stored anywhere that police could access, especially if they never recovered the phone.

 

[mrjitty]

What makes you sure they don't have it?

I just said that they may have it?

What we know, is that it is not revealed in the PJ files.

So either they have withheld it, or they never got it.

IMO it seems more likely they never got it.

 

[Newthoughts]

PF would not have known who was going in or out the patio door at that specific time unless she physically saw them.
It's a pity PF wasn't asked if she heard the patio doors opening/closing on any other occasions that week which would at least confirm checks on the children were being made using that entrance.

But it was the crying that would have made her alert to what was going on. If you hear a child crying you do start listening out to hear I'd someone comes. If there is no crying I doubt you'd be listening for doors and parents.

She was out on the 2nd and didn't hear anything on the 3rd. But I'd there was no crying there would be nothing to alert her to doors.