Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #20

[Anxala]

'Madeleine is Dead' - They've Taken Her - Omny.fm

A podcast with HCW about MM

Thank you for that, @enjy15. It's a very good listen.

But astonishing that this is still the state of play in late Oct 2020!

The amount of evidence he's admitting the LE still needs in order to charge CB with MM's abduction/murder is alarming. My understanding from that podcast (I'm assuming it's current as per the date, as opposed to recorded months ago and only now broadcast?) is that he's still trying to solidly place CB in the vicinity on that evening!

Wolters does come across as a very sincere and focused person though so...

 

[SuperdadV8]

Interesting

I think @SuperdadV8 might be correct that the evidence is more in the direction of internet chats and witnesses than photos/videos

My highly overvalued opinion is that they believe such evidence exists or existed, but they don't have it.

Will listen on Sunday and maybe make a statement. I'm on the road over the weekend!

 

[tedtink]

GA concluded that there was an accident in 5a and MM's body was hidden afterwards.
(He may well be right )

FF agrees with GA

"On this basis, ie the Portuguese files, I have to state that there is a lot to be said for the argument that an accident took place in the apartment and after which Madeleine's body was hidden."

We know it wasn't the MC's, surely GA got some of the investigation right?

This is where part of the original investigation could well fit @Dlk79's theory.

 

[tedtink]

Will listen on Sunday and maybe make a statement. I'm on the road over the weekend!

Sitting tightly on my chair, hoping not too fall off, when I hear your statement Super!
Have a good weekend!

 

[Dlk79]

GA concluded that there was an accident in 5a and MM's body was hidden afterwards.
(He may well be right )

FF agrees with GA

"On this basis, ie the Portuguese files, I have to state that there is a lot to be said for the argument that an accident took place in the apartment and after which Madeleine's body was hidden."

We know it wasn't the MC's, surely GA got some of the investigation right?

This is where part of the original investigation could well fit @Dlk79's theory.

Yikes, concurring with GA and FF's theory! What a terrifying thought!

 

[tedtink]

Yikes, concurring with GA and FF's theory! What a terrifying thought!

Part of the original investigation - I said PART!

 

[SuperdadV8]

Sitting tightly on my chair, hoping not too fall off, when I hear your statement Super!
Have a good weekend!

Thank you very much, dear tedtink! I'm curious either, what HCW has to say.

But family goes first, if someone is not looking for trouble!

 

[tedtink]

Thanks. I would like to add in support of my counter arguments the things we now know about CB because he has been fairly convicted of them. They include a cruel and brutal planned rape, child abuse and possession of images of child abuse. The rape clearly involved some planning.

Likewise the abuse of a girlfriends small daughter involved getting to know her which is planning. I'll add it's a common ploy for paedophiles - befriending parents long before abusing. It's a plan

Based on that my opinion is he went in with the sole intention of taking MM.


Firstly we don't actually know how he entered or left. All we know is that the window was opened.

We do know that the patio doors faced the pool and restaurants and would be more public of you looked a bit shifty than either the bedroom window or front door. If other holidaymakers were in they would be more likely to be sitting in the lounge looking out thru the patio doors than looking out of bedroom windows

We do know he was a pretty successful burglar so would the window have been that much harder?

So based on that the options could range from in thru patio, check coast is clear thru window, out thru front door. In thru window out thru front door and so on.

Lastly planned doesn't necessarily have to mean 'carefully' planned. Nobody had said carefully planned.

Similarly Seeing an opportunity doesn't mean you don't plan the best way to seize it. And it worked

I think he'd have looked more shifty climbing through a window to enter/ exit than, say, going through the patio doors where he could have been assumed, by other holiday makers, to be one of the T9 doing a check. If it was planned.

The view from the T Restaurant was very obscured, I'm sure the T9 didn't focus on it all evening.

I'm not saying he did go in through the patio door, but if he had been watching T9 movements and , like many presume, surely he would have known it was always open?
An abductors or even burglars dream!

I don't want to get into battle of the pedants here - carefully planned/ planned. But I do know a plan takes some kind of arrangements in advance for a decision already made.

Just enjoying discussing new plausible theories and the reason the perp may have entered 5a in the first place.

 

[redplanet]

Yikes, concurring with GA and FF's theory! What a terrifying thought!

The results obtained by the UK dogs were IMO grossly misinterpreted in 2007 by GA and team to falsely accuse the parents of the crime. Their reasoning was appalingly bad IMO and their accusation was false. Now IMO it is time to reexamine the findings of the highly skilled UK dogs in the new context that it was an intruder who commited this crime.

 

[tedtink]

The results obtained by the UK dogs were IMO grossly misinterpreted in 2007 by GA and team to falsely accuse the parents of the crime. Their reasoning was appalingly bad IMO and their accusation was false. Now IMO it is time to reexamine the findings of the highly skilled UK dogs in the new context that it was an intruder who commited this crime.

Out of interest, does anyone have knowledge of how long it takes before a corpse produces putrescine and cadaverine?

 

[Dlk79]

The results obtained by the UK dogs were IMO grossly misinterpreted in 2007 by GA and team to falsely accuse the parents of the crime. Their reasoning was appalingly bad IMO and their accusation was false. Now IMO it is time to reexamine the findings of the highly skilled UK dogs in the new context that it was an intruder who commited this crime.

I would have loved to have come up with a theory that explained the dog alerts but since cadaver odour sets in after about 2 or 3 hours, I'm not sure the death in 5A scenario I proposed explains that. Though there may be other things besides the dogs that made GA think there was an accidental death in the apartment, I suspect our theories may be coincidental.

 

[tedtink]

I would have loved to have come up with a theory that explained the dog alerts but since cadaver odour sets in after about 2 or 3 hours, I'm not sure the death in 5A scenario I proposed explains that. Though there may be other things besides the dogs that made GA think there was an accidental death in the apartment, I suspect our theories may be coincidental.

You've just answered my Q - thanks.

 

[redplanet]

Should investigation of the intruder theory consider other rooms also?

For example after GM checked and saw her, might MM have woken and gone into the other bedroom and fallen asleep there? If next an intruder enters the apartment, he would encounter her not in the child bedroom but in the other bedroom. ???

 

[Anxala]

All we know is that the window was opened.

I'm sorry to be potentially difficult here but we do not know that for a fact at all. All the objective evidence at the time suggests that neither the blinds not the window had been opened from the outside or tampered with.

And people entering the apartment after the discovery of the missing child and seeing an open window is not proof of an open window.

I'm not pointing this out to be provocative or to point towards a personal theory, just to point out that there's just no evidence to suggest that an abductor came through the window of the room in which MM was sleeping.

 

[redplanet]

I would have loved to have come up with a theory that explained the dog alerts but since cadaver odour sets in after about 2 or 3 hours, I'm not sure the death in 5A scenario I proposed explains that. Though there may be other things besides the dogs that made GA think there was an accidental death in the apartment, I suspect our theories may be coincidental.

Interestingly in the recent podcast, HCW was asked whether he has studied the work in the apartment by the UK dogs, and was also asked an associated question, whether her death might have occured in the apartment. He declined to answer these questions. Soon I will add here the time within the podcast.

ETA
24:54 = question about the 2 UK dogs.
25:28 = question about whether death-in-apartment is possible.
'Madeleine is Dead' - They've Taken Her - Omny.fm

 

[SuperdadV8]

So...

i've listened to the podcast. Very interesting interview.

In my opinion, the most important statement of HCW has been made in the beginning.

"We have everything we need from MET and PJ, but i don't know, if they have every info of the evidence we (the prosecuters) have."

That could make sense, because the prosecuters do not really investigate by themselves. They instruct german police to do!

So it is possible, that german police do not hand over every knowledge they have, to MET and PJ, due to tactical investigative reasons i think.

And they do not have to, because they are in charge of the german investigations against a german in germany! But they can easily aks the foreign police forces for official assistance, without explaining the whole issue.

That could explain, why MET still isn't seeing the case as a murder case. Also HCW's surprise about it isn't that surprise itself, because he can't know every detail of the communication between BKA and the other authorities in Portugal and the U.K..

But what he knows is strong enough to point out to her death and CB as the perp. It's more than spokem words, he says! But just not enough for a warrant, whats odd. But he is hopeful, although he needs some more weeks or months to go further.

He said a lot but nothing that points out to the proclamations of british tabloids, that the case will evaporate!

They still seem to be working hard!

 

[Chiatos]

GA concluded that there was an accident in 5a and MM's body was hidden afterwards.
(He may well be right )

FF agrees with GA

"On this basis, ie the Portuguese files, I have to state that there is a lot to be said for the argument that an accident took place in the apartment and after which Madeleine's body was hidden."

We know it wasn't the MC's, surely GA got some of the investigation right?

This is where part of the original investigation could well fit @Dlk79's theory.

How can you trust GA?
How can you trust a policeman who has apparently used physical force to force a statement by parents who have lost their child? Cipriani.
How can you trust a policeman who writes a book within one(?) year about an ongoing investigation? That's far from ethical.
His best friend buddy-colleague has been convicted as a dirty cop. According to this best friend-colleague, MM wandered off by herself and disappeared in the streets of pdl.
I don't trust GA one bit. And FF hinting that the McC's received helped from someone to clear up the traces. For crying out loud.

HCW speaks of murder. No accident, plain murder.

 

[Chiatos]

I'm sorry to be potentially difficult here but we do not know that for a fact at all. All the objective evidence at the time suggests that neither the blinds not the window had been opened from the outside or tampered with.

And people entering the apartment after the discovery of the missing child and seeing an open window is not proof of an open window.

I'm not pointing this out to be provocative or to point towards a personal theory, just to point out that there's just no evidence to suggest that an abductor came through the window of the room in which MM was sleeping.

The officer who came in first the same night MM disappeared, did not investigate much on the shutters (PJfiles).
As for opening them from the outside, one doesn't need to open them entirely, but lift 2-3 cm and then reach for the strap with a hook or something.
Easy peasy for an experienced burglar.

Those 2-3cm are easy to reach if the blinds have been closed still leaving gaps between the "rods".

It's not impossible to have entered by the window.

 

[MENDEL]

Out of interest, does anyone have knowledge of how long it takes before a corpse produces putrescine and cadaverine?

It takes at least 2 hours, Ted.

 

[MENDEL]

The officer who came in first the same night MM disappeared, did not investigate much on the shutters (PJfiles).
As for opening them from the outside, one doesn't need to open them entirely, but lift 2-3 cm and then reach for the strap with a hook or something.
Easy peasy for an experienced burglar.

Those 2-3cm are easy to reach if the blinds have been closed still leaving gaps between the "rods".

It's not impossible to have entered by the window.

Not impossible, but you're counting on an open window when you lift shutters 2-3cm. Forensically speaking there's no evidence the window was open because no officer saw it open when arrived. Also, investigators found no evidence window and shutters were forced.