Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #36

[Davieson]

I think the only reason we know so much about this dig is because it had to take place in a foreign country and permission asked.
For example the PJ were able to search wells and no-one was any the wiser until after the event.

Don't forget the live feed TV cameras. They were recording everything thereby stoking interest and speculation

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Or maybe anything that had been buried?

This is the most likely IMO.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I think the only reason we know so much about this dig is because it had to take place in a foreign country and permission asked.
For example the PJ were able to search wells and no-one was any the wiser until after the event.

It was covered while they were searching the wells.

 

[mrjitty]

It could be in there from the person who had the van for 25 years before CB or the five years after… or anyone who borrowed it from him.

Well yes. But such is the nature of circumstantial evidence.

If you examine my shovel you will find pond silt on it. Could it have been from 2 years ago? Possibly! But it does provide some supporting evidence i dug in the pond this weekend.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I'm sure you're right, Mex, but the implication is (so far) they haven't found much, if anything, at more sites than we know about. I know we won't agree on that.

They definitely found soil, a bra strap and other stuff that looked like junk. You call that not much… shame on you! One man’s rubbish is another man’s gold.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Well yes. But such is the nature of circumstantial evidence.

If you examine my shovel you will find pond silt on it. Could it have been from 2 years ago? Possibly! But it does provide some supporting evidence i dug in the pond this weekend.

Sounds easy to defend. I hope they have more than this.

At the end of the day, we are talking about a mobile home in a tourist area. I’m pretty sure it’s been to a hell of a lot of places on the Algarve.

 

[mrjitty]

Sounds easy to defend. I hope they have more than this.

At the end of the day, we are talking about a mobile home in a tourist area. I’m pretty sure it’s been to a hell of a lot of places on the Algarve.

Agreed.

This may also only be investigative. In other words it is not proof for Court. They are trying to work out where something is buried. If they find the thing, then they can connect them using soil found in the van, if that makes sense.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Agreed.

This may also only be investigative. In other words it is not proof for Court. They are trying to work out where something is buried.

Okay, that makes more sense. So, for example they have a soil sample from something that had been buried. This sample contains traces of something only found in fresh water lakes. So then they are trying to match other trace elements in the sample they have with a particular Portuguese lake.

 

[Dave55]

How could a hole be identified has having being dug by one particular individual?

A match from the soil recovered from the van

 

[C.greek]

Okay, that makes more sense. So, for example they have a soil sample from something that had been buried. This sample contains traces of something only found in fresh water lakes. So then they are trying to match other trace elements in the sample they have with a particular Portuguese lake.

Soil forensics is much more precise than this. They can even date it to the year. As I said previously if there was ever blood in that soil certain bacteria could be found - I guess though they have a photo of MM in the woods/camp jmo

 

[RichardKimble]

DBM.

 

[RichardKimble]

Okay, that makes more sense. So, for example they have a soil sample from something that had been buried. This sample contains traces of something only found in fresh water lakes. So then they are trying to match other trace elements in the sample they have with a particular Portuguese lake.

But only if CB denies visiting such sites, but it may be samples from this reservoir which CB visited are for elimination purposes and another is in their sights.

 

[mrjitty]

I still wonder why they only do this now.

Even with corona, this search was easily in summer '21 or in '22

 

[Denis R Tandib]

A match from the soil recovered from the van

But this is only worthwhile if there is something in the sample that is connected to MM e.g. blood. If that’s the case and they can tie CB to the location of the soil through EXIF data then it’s strong.

Dirt from all over is meant to be on the van. It’s only useful if the dirt can tie CB to a time and location or directly to MM.

 

[RichardKimble]

Well yes. But such is the nature of circumstantial evidence.

If you examine my shovel you will find pond silt on it. Could it have been from 2 years ago? Possibly! But it does provide some supporting evidence i dug in the pond this weekend.

But only insofar as you dug the pond, now let's say the shovel was used to smack someone on the head, that body is then discovered miles away with traces of soil on their being not consistent to where they were found , where does a search begin.

 

[mrjitty]

But only insofar as you dug the pond, now let's say the shovel was used to smack someone on the head, that body is then discovered miles away with traces of soil on their being not consistent to where they were found , where does a search begin.

We don't know what link that are trying to make so it is all a bit theoretical

IMO they try to find the gravesite

 

[Denis R Tandib]

We don't know what link that are trying to make so it is all a bit theoretical

IMO they try to find the gravesite

That’s the only important thing. If we want to know why they got the warrant and how they justified the cost, it’s because they had reason to believe MM’s body was buried there. If they wanted soil and junk, send one guy with a shovel and two bin bags. The only thing wrapping up this case is the body.

 

[Okapi]

Besides soil, they may also be cognisant of tree pollen, and its dispersal patterns. It may identify a very specific forest neighbourhood (tree species). It may indicate the seasonal time of year.

“Now if you think you can just wash your clothes or try some other method to get rid of any pollen, think again. Most pollen and spores are hard to destroy and they don't easily decay. This means that pollen and spore evidence from a region or crime scene can remain intact for years, hundreds of years, or even thousands and millions of years! As long as the crime scene evidence is handled correctly and stored safely, years or decades later the trapped pollen and spores can still be recovered and used to assist investigators.”
Pollen Clues | Ask A Biologist

https://www.uwa.edu.au/study/-/media/Faculties/Science/Docs/Fact-Sheet-Forensic-palynology.pdf

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Besides soil, they may also be cognisant of tree pollen, and its dispersal patterns. It may identify a very specific forest neighbourhood (tree species). It may indicate the seasonal time of year.

“Now if you think you can just wash your clothes or try some other method to get rid of any pollen, think again. Most pollen and spores are hard to destroy and they don't easily decay. This means that pollen and spore evidence from a region or crime scene can remain intact for years, hundreds of years, or even thousands and millions of years! As long as the crime scene evidence is handled correctly and stored safely, years or decades later the trapped pollen and spores can still be recovered and used to assist investigators.”
Pollen Clues | Ask A Biologist

https://www.uwa.edu.au/study/-/media/Faculties/Science/Docs/Fact-Sheet-Forensic-palynology.pdf

I think this is how they date some ancient artefacts?

 

[Davieson]

Soil in the van is likely to have come from many sources over time and likely to get mixed .
Would forensic analysis be able to identify a single soil type from a mix of soils ?