Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #39

[mrjitty]

Can he ? Can a regional prosecutor file charges in another regional court ? Would that not be outside their remit ?

As HCW said in the german language article upthread, they can collaborate with their colleagues in Magdeburg who would file the proceedings

The idea that CB is somehow getting away with something is nonsense. The prosecutors just need to file in the correct court, or wait for the appeal to see if they can get the Braunschweig courts to assert jurisdiction. Which they do is up to the prosecutors and the courts, not up to CB.

 

[Davieson]

As HCW said in the german language article upthread, they can collaborate with their colleagues in Magdeburg who would file the proceedings

The idea that CB is somehow getting away with something is nonsense. The prosecutors just need to file in the correct court, or wait for the appeal to see if they can get the Braunschweig courts to assert jurisdiction. Which they do is up to the prosecutors and the courts, not up to CB.

I wasn't meaning to suggest that CB would 'get off' due to a change of jurisdiction, just querying where HCW's authority (if that's the appropriate word) finished.

 

[mrjitty]

I wasn't meaning to suggest that CB would 'get off' due to a change of jurisdiction, just querying where HCW's authority (if that's the appropriate word) finished.

His office can't file in Magdeburg - they'd have to collaborate with the office in that City

IMO what probably happened here is Brauschweig incorrectly took the case, including successfully prosecuting CB, so no one realised this screw up until FF took up the defence.

You can understand why Braunschweig might take the time to appeal it, given CB is in jail anyway, but that is really their decision. They could just refile and get on with prosecuting him tomorrow.

 

[Anxala]

Are they due back from their holidays soon? End of Aug, I suppose. Good.

So we can reasonably expect news in Sept as to the progress of the jurisdiction issue, yes?

Be great to have that sorted and get those 5 pending cases hopefully put to bed (most particularly the HazelB one) so that the focus can return to the primary case the BKA and Herr Wolters have been investigating for the past 3 plus years.

 

[mrjitty]

Are they due back from their holidays soon? End of Aug, I suppose. Good.

So we can reasonably expect news in Sept as to the progress of the jurisdiction issue, yes?

Be great to have that sorted and get those 5 pending cases hopefully put to bed (most particularly the HazelB one) so that the focus can return to the primary case the BKA and Herr Wolters have been investigating for the past 3 plus years.

I personally doubt those cases are holding up a murder case.

 

[frank-cole]

What struck me is the point you have made regarding individuals like CB having the ability to utilise such technicalities to their own advantage. I don't think the intention of that law was to allow career criminals the ability to play fast and loose with the system.

So far as I can see the only supposed verification of CB's last known residence in Germany is the land registration of derelict industrial buildings in his ownership in Neuwegersleben and his word that he was resident there.

Agree. It does seem that the jurisdictional rule/technicality/loophole, can benefit & give opportunity to transient people but doesn’t benefit people who have a fixed residence. IMO such law means that things aren’t balanced & some benefit when they shouldn’t. IMO it is what it is & doesn’t really change anything long term. IMO the technicalities & slow balling won’t have any influence on the outcome of the proceedings. I think the outcome is inevitable irrespective of jurisdiction.It seems that the evidence file was a catalyst for FF playing that card & I think he would have made the same move if this started in a different jurisdiction So although it’s benefitted CB to have time to build a case, I don’t think it’s at all possible that technicalities or a slow process will save the day for CB.

 

[Mex]

Agree. It does seem that the jurisdictional rule/technicality/loophole, can benefit & give opportunity to transient people but doesn’t benefit people who have a fixed residence. IMO such law means that things aren’t balanced & some benefit when they shouldn’t. IMO it is what it is & doesn’t really change anything long term. IMO the technicalities & slow balling won’t have any influence on the outcome of the proceedings. I think the outcome is inevitable irrespective of jurisdiction.It seems that the evidence file was a catalyst for FF playing that card & I think he would have made the same move if this started in a different jurisdiction So although it’s benefitted CB to have time to build a case, I don’t think it’s at all possible that technicalities or a slow process will save the day for CB.

The options for the defence were limited and this procedural move is one of them, perhaps even the only one.

My impression is that probably no-one would more surprised than the defence team was when the Braunschweig lower court judge allowed it to be put to the test.

It certainly is an interesting one.

I don’t know on whom the onus of proof is here.

CB doesn’t have to prove his innocence in a court case, the prosecution has to prove his guilt.
But I think he might have to prove the residency his legal team claims on his behalf, particularly as he is a man who has left a footprint behind him in numerous locations whether it be in the shape of discarded vehicles, dead dogs or his collection of illicit images.
My opinion.

Snip
CB’s registration documents alone, FF said, are also not sufficient enough evidence to prove his client was physically living at the listed address in question at the time. “Prior to his arrest abroad, the accused lived on his property in Neuwegersleben,” FF added.

German Court Drops Sex Crimes Trial Against Jailed Madeleine McCann Suspect

A German court won’t hear arguments in a sex offense trial involving the primary suspect in the Madeleine McCann case. Convicted sex predator, Christian Brückner, 45, who’s considered the most credible suspect in the British toddler’s 2007 disappearance, will not face trial on charges related to...

www.yahoo.com

 

[RichardKimble]

I personally doubt those cases are holding up a murder case.

Lack of evidence is the most over-riding factor imo.

 

[Anxala]

I personally doubt those cases are holding up a murder case.

Oh I don't either. But a bit of movement on the jurisdiction issue would be good since we're heading into yet another Autumn with nothing to show for it.

 

[Mex]

Lack of evidence is the most over-riding factor imo.

Apparently CB's lawyer disagrees with your opinion.

Snip
CB’s lawyer, however, said the court precedent could now impede German investigators’ efforts in investigating McCann’s disappearance.

“On the basis of the court’s decision, the Brunswick justice system is also not competent in the Maddie case,” FF said, according to the Guardian.

It’s unclear what impact, if any, the ruling will have on the German investigation into MM's disappearance. Even if the case moves to the proper jurisdiction, prosecutors may still face additional legal hurdles in bringing forth charges against CB.

German Court Drops Sex Crimes Trial Against Jailed Madeleine McCann Suspect

A German court won’t hear arguments in a sex offense trial involving the primary suspect in the Madeleine McCann case. Convicted sex predator, Christian Brückner, 45, who’s considered the most credible suspect in the British toddler’s 2007 disappearance, will not face trial on charges related to...

www.yahoo.com

Sex offences trial of Madeleine McCann suspect cancelled in Germany

Brunswick court says jurisdiction issue prevents it hearing case against Christian Brückner on charges unrelated to British toddler

www.theguardian.com

 

[Mex]

I personally doubt those cases are holding up a murder case.

There is no murder trial.
Presently the only charges which have been brought and which are affected by the jurisdiction issue, are three aggravated rapes and two counts of offences against children.

These alleged crimes have nothing to do with crimes against MM. Although FF suggests that the procedural tactic could very well affect the case work which has already been carried out and may lead to a prosecution.

In the circumstances that might very well be a logical assumption which cannot be yet ruled out, despite as we know that the initial appeal against jurisdiction has been lodged.

Landgericht nicht zuständig: Prozess gegen Verdächtigen im Fall Maddie geplatzt

Im Mai 2007 verschwand die damals dreijährige Britin Madeleine McCann aus einer Ferienanlage. Nun folgt die nächste Wende im mysteriösen Vermisstenfall.

www.hna.de

Snip
Despite the court’s decision, Brunswick prosecutor’s office said it would continue investigations related to MM’s case. Prosecutors would also “carefully examine the reasons” given by the court and “probably” take the decision to appeal, the spokesperson for Brunswick’s prosecutors, HCW, added.

CB’s lawyer, FF, argued that “on the basis of the court’s decision, the Brunswick justice system is also not competent in the Maddie case”.

If CB’s trial is now moved to a new jurisdiction, such as Magdeburg, the closest court to where he had reportedly been living in a disused warehouse, or Frankfurt, where he was brought after his arrest by authorities in Italy, prosecutors there will have to start from scratch to familiarise themselves with details of the case, which the Brunswick authorities have been working on for several years.

CB’s last registered address in Germany in 2016 had been in Brunswick, in the state of Lower Saxony, but purely for the sake of receiving mail, and he had not lived there, FF told German media.

He said the court in Brunsick had been wrong to assume that the registration was proof enough he had lived there.

Sex offences trial of Madeleine McCann suspect cancelled in Germany

Brunswick court says jurisdiction issue prevents it hearing case against Christian Brückner on charges unrelated to British toddler

www.theguardian.com

 

[Anxala]

Lack of evidence is the most over-riding factor imo.

Well, lack of credible evidence to take before a judge, I'd say, rather than lack of evidence.

Anyway, all the more reason to hope this jurisdiction mess gets sorted out, that the 5 pending charges get to trial, that there's an outcome and that they can be put to bed so the focus can return to the case this thread is actually about, the only one those of us who've followed the MM case from the off are interested in.

 

[Mex]

Well, lack of credible evidence to take before a judge, I'd say, rather than lack of evidence.

Anyway, all the more reason to hope this jurisdiction mess gets sorted out, that the 5 pending charges get to trial, that there's an outcome and that they can be put to bed so the focus can return to the case this thread is actually about, the only one those of us who've followed the MM case from the off are interested in.

The procedural jurisdiction objection which was accepted by the Braunschweig court really does appear to be a mess.

Particularly since the prosecutors' office has complained that procedure was not followed with regard to the release of the decision that the court had declared itself not competent.
Which all seems to be a bit strange and which may be clarified quite soon at the end of the summer recess only days away now.

We know that an appeal has been lodged.

Landgericht nicht zuständig: Prozess gegen Verdächtigen im Fall Maddie geplatzt

Im Mai 2007 verschwand die damals dreijährige Britin Madeleine McCann aus einer Ferienanlage. Nun folgt die nächste Wende im mysteriösen Vermisstenfall.

www.hna.de

So it looks as though it will definitely be a long drawn out process which justifies the claim made by Martin Brunt reported earlier in the thread, that JCW told him there is unlikely to be progress in the MM case this year.

Snip
However, Hans Christian Wolters of the Braunschweig public prosecutor's office does not yet want to have been informed about this: "Actually, the district court should serve the defense lawyer and us with the decision at the same time. But it didn't do that, so I can't comment on the content yet." Only when the Braunschweig public prosecutor's office has received the court's decision will it be decided whether to appeal against it.

Maddie McCann News: Gericht verweigert Prozess! Verdächtiger Christian B. bald frei?

Christian B. gilt als tatverdächtig im Fall Maddie McCann und wurde eigentlich wegen Vergewaltigung und sexuellen Missbrauchs von Kindern angeklagt. Das Gericht fühle sich für den Fall jedoch "nicht zuständig".

www.news.de

 

[mrjitty]

Oh I don't either. But a bit of movement on the jurisdiction issue would be good since we're heading into yet another Autumn with nothing to show for it.

Right.

I just mean as a question of procedure and bureaucracy, I doubt the jurisdiction issue impacts the MM case much.

Active investigation is conducted by the federal police who build a case with the prosecutors office, much as say the Met works with CPS

Meanwhile the 5 charges went to court with a trial team who are now litigating on the procedure. That is nothing to do with the MM case investigation. In the end, if BKA get the big break in the case tomorrow, that isn't going to be held up by some jurisdictional issue.

I suppose it is conceivable that in the meantime they did in fact finish the MM investigation and are now sitting on their murder case until jurisdiction is resolved but it seems unlikely.

 

[RichardKimble]

Google translate.

Wirbel um Verdächtigen im Fall „Maddie“: Staatsanwaltschaft legt Beschwerde bei Gericht ein

Der Prozess gegen den Verdächtigen im Fall „Maddie“ ist vorerst geplatzt. Die Staatsanwaltschaft Braunschweig legt Beschwerde beim Landgericht ein.

www-hna-de.translate.goog

The trial against the suspect in the "Maddie" case has burst for the time being. The public prosecutor's office in Braunschweig does not accept this and lodges a complaint, as IPPEN.MEDIA knows.

Braunschweig – The Braunschweig public prosecutor wants to bring the man suspected of kidnapping Maddie McCann to justice. But the regional court did not cooperate and dismissed the indictment from October 2022. The Trial Chamber declared itself “not competent” .

Additional arrest warrant lifted: district court does not want to hear suspects in "Maddie" case​

Christian B. is currently in a German prison for another crime. Even with the planned indictment, it was not the "Maddie" case that was to be tried, but five other sexual offenses that the 45-year-old is said to have committed between 2000 and 2017 in Portugal. His imprisonment is currently valid until 2025, he is serving a seven-year prison sentence for a rape in 2005. If no new trial is added, he will be free again in just under two years. The regional court has already lifted the additional arrest warrant.

Why does the Braunschweig district court not want to negotiate against him? It's about where Christian B. lived before fleeing to Portugal. Because he no longer has a permanent residence in Germany, responsibility depends on his last place of residence.

Maddie McCann's suspected kidnapper owns property in Saxony-Anhalt​

Most recently, Christian B. was reported in Braunschweig, which is why the local public prosecutor's office has been investigating for years. "In the opinion of the Chamber, however, that is not the point," the regional court objects. And is based, among other things, on a statement by the accused himself. The authority reports that he stated that he had lived in Saxony-Anhalt before leaving the country. Christian B. owns a property there that he bought two months before he fled. "In addition to various vehicles, there were also personal belongings of the accused on this property," according to the district court.
As announced, the public prosecutor's office in Braunschweig has now filed a complaint against this decision. The investigators are convinced that they are responsible


The public prosecutor's office is apparently not concerned with not having to hand over the "Maddie" case. “We are not committed to keeping the case in Lower Saxony. You can believe me that the investigations tie up quite a lot of investigative capacity, which we can also contribute to other investigations. But there are rules of jurisdiction in the code of criminal procedure that you have to adhere to," said spokesman Christian Wolters at the request of hna.de
And further: "Based on our findings, in our opinion the responsibility lies with the Braunschweig public prosecutor's office. We'll see if the courts judge it that way."

Braunschweig public prosecutor's office does not have to stop "Maddie" investigations​

Meanwhile, the district court told IPPEN.MEDIA that the "Maddie" case would remain in Lower Saxony for the time being. "That has no influence, it's only about the specific cases in the indictment," says a spokeswoman. A precedent decision would certainly have been made.


"Should another regional court and thus another public prosecutor's office actually be responsible, the case would be handed over there," explains public prosecutor spokesman Wolters.

The authorities from Lower Saxony would not have to keep their hands off the case anyway, Wolters notes. “In principle, public prosecutors can also investigate in proceedings for which they are not responsible. However, the investigations cannot then be concluded there, and in particular cannot be prosecuted.” (moe)

 

[Mex]

Right.

I just mean as a question of procedure and bureaucracy, I doubt the jurisdiction issue impacts the MM case much.

Active investigation is conducted by the federal police who build a case with the prosecutors office, much as say the Met works with CPS

Meanwhile the 5 charges went to court with a trial team who are now litigating on the procedure. That is nothing to do with the MM case investigation. In the end, if BKA get the big break in the case tomorrow, that isn't going to be held up by some jurisdictional issue.

I suppose it is conceivable that in the meantime they did in fact finish the MM investigation and are now sitting on their murder case until jurisdiction is resolved but it seems unlikely.

That is one way to look at it despite the fact that FF sees the situation rather differently if what he is reported as saying is true.
Snip
CB’s lawyer, however, said the court precedent could now impede German investigators’ efforts in investigating MM’s disappearance.

“On the basis of the court’s decision, the Brunswick justice system is also not competent in the MM case,” FF said, according to the Guardian.

German Court Drops Sex Crimes Trial Against Jailed Madeleine McCann Suspect

A German court won’t hear arguments in a sex offense trial involving the primary suspect in the Madeleine McCann case. Convicted sex predator, Christian Brückner, 45, who’s considered the most credible suspect in the British toddler’s 2007 disappearance, will not face trial on charges related to...

www.yahoo.com

Was that perhaps always the defence ploy with regard to the time when or if CB was indicted with murder as expected.
The five charges were unexpected. Every eye being focused on MM and CB's status as suspect.
If so, the sting has been drawn as forewarned is forearmed with the prosecution being able to take steps to counter the argument before it is even made.
My opinion.

 

[Dave55]

An important point is that Wolters can still investigate the MM case even if he does not have the power to prosecute

 

[Davieson]

That is one way to look at it despite the fact that FF sees the situation rather differently if what he is reported as saying is true.
Snip
CB’s lawyer, however, said the court precedent could now impede German investigators’ efforts in investigating MM’s disappearance.

“On the basis of the court’s decision, the Brunswick justice system is also not competent in the MM case,” FF said, according to the Guardian.

German Court Drops Sex Crimes Trial Against Jailed Madeleine McCann Suspect

A German court won’t hear arguments in a sex offense trial involving the primary suspect in the Madeleine McCann case. Convicted sex predator, Christian Brückner, 45, who’s considered the most credible suspect in the British toddler’s 2007 disappearance, will not face trial on charges related to...

www.yahoo.com

Was that perhaps always the defence ploy with regard to the time when or if CB was indicted with murder as expected.
The five charges were unexpected. Every eye being focused on MM and CB's status as suspect.
If so, the sting has been drawn as forewarned is forearmed with the prosecution being able to take steps to counter the argument before it is even made.
My opinion.

I can't see that there will be anything to counter.
If the Brunswick court is deemed incompetent to hear these 5 cases, then the same ruling will apply to any further cases brought before it as the precedent will have been established.

 

[RichardKimble]

I can't see that there will be anything to counter.
If the Brunswick court is deemed incompetent to hear these 5 cases, then the same ruling will apply to any further cases brought before it as the precedent will have been established.

Yep, they're either competent or not, if his domicile is elsewhere let that court area who is the responsible get on with it rather than delay by an appeal.

 

[Davieson]

As a matter of interest, who will the Prosecutors Office be accountable to ?