Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #39

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I think you have hit the nail on the head with that observation.
  • The lower Braunschweig court ruled itself as being not competent to take CB to trial because of a jurisdiction issue.
  • This resulted in the five charges for serious crimes made against him being set aside until that issue is resolved.
  • The jurisdiction issue relates to all charges against CB made by the Braunschweig prosecutors.
  • What would it profit the Braunschweig prosecutors to proceed with charges against CB in MM's case until the jurisdiction issue is resolved once and for all.
They obviously weren't ready to proceed with MM charges at the time the others charges were laid.
Are they any more ready now?
 
They obviously weren't ready to proceed with MM charges at the time the others charges were laid.
Are they any more ready now?
I don't know but speculation on the catalyst for where we are today - CB and 2017 - is interesting.

The sequence of events was never in chronological order and we know that only by benefit of hindsight.

I would say that obviously the BKA did not know about HB when they indicted CB of the aggravated rape, torture and burglary of DM's personal possessions.

Only as a result of learning that the prime suspect in MM's case was responsible for a horrifyingly similar rape survived by her in 2004 was HB able to alert the BKA.

So basically there is no rhyme or reason to when or if investigators gain access to sufficient evidence to charge a suspect. That is very much their decision to make.
Sometimes the defence are taken by surprise by the turn of events as FF confirms, "CB's lawyer FF said the new charges had come as a 'complete surprise' to him and his client," which resulted in the premature use of the jurisdiction card not on the expected charges relating to MM but on five other serious offences.

My opinion

 
Why is it considered a premature use of the jurisdiction "card" ( issue), its been explained before, the role of the defence in the first instance is to ensure the client doesn't reach court, it may be unpalatable to some but that's how the system works, CB'S defence team as of this moment have succeeded in that.

Those of a British bent might not like it or even understand the German judicial system, but it is what it is .

The only road block to the MM case is if the Braunschweig office is ready to charge CB in relation to it and are waiting on the appeal judgement.

One step at a time but what if the appeal is unsuccessful ?
 
It's unlikely that the 5 charges were a surprise to FF as we know he was already involved in discussions with the prosecutors office in relation to them. Maybe he honestly felt they were too weak but I feel he is more talking to the media here than a genuine assessment of the indictments. Typical stuff any defence counsel says.

I also see now that there is somehow an idea that he was saving the jurisdiction challenge up as a trick - but that isn't how this works. It makes no difference if he makes that challenge now or later - the result for the MM case is the same either way. Indeed if FF is successful, its probably more likely to frustrate the prosecutor now in the investigatory phase than when they have indicted on a murder charge
 
Why is it considered a premature use of the jurisdiction "card" ( issue), its been explained before, the role of the defence in the first instance is to ensure the client doesn't reach court, it may be unpalatable to some but that's how the system works, CB'S defence team as of this moment have succeeded in that.

Those of a British bent might not like it or even understand the German judicial system, but it is what it is .

The only road block to the MM case is if the Braunschweig office is ready to charge CB in relation to it and are waiting on the appeal judgement.

One step at a time but what if the appeal is unsuccessful ?

The thing is you don't really save things up for later in litigation as the whole point is to get the best result for your client ie. to avoid getting indicted, going to trial etc

This is why FF will have told them that he intended to contest jurisdiction in the pre-indictment phase, to try to get them to go away
 
Why is it considered a premature use of the jurisdiction "card" ( issue), its been explained before, the role of the defence in the first instance is to ensure the client doesn't reach court, it may be unpalatable to some but that's how the system works, CB'S defence team as of this moment have succeeded in that.

Those of a British bent might not like it or even understand the German judicial system, but it is what it is .

The only road block to the MM case is if the Braunschweig office is ready to charge CB in relation to it and are waiting on the appeal judgement.

One step at a time but what if the appeal is unsuccessful ?
I think the problem you may be having is that we appear to be speaking at cross purposes.

My reference was not to the process. That is what it is until such time as appeal against it is either successful or not.

That is also part of the process.

My reference was to the fact that CB’s legal team appear to have been geared up for charges to be laid against him cantering on MM not on the five serious sexual crimes which had nothing to do with MM but which are all to do with CB.
Much as the charges against his ex girlfriend's daughter and DM were nothing to do with the MM case but all to do with CB.

Had prosecutors charged CB with crime against MM hers would be the case tied up in the jurisdiction problem right now. It is not. The five serious stand alone sexual crimes for which he was charged are.

With all due respect it is a nonsense to expect any further indictments to be laid against CB until such time as the courts decide where he will be tried.

My opinion
 
It's unlikely that the 5 charges were a surprise to FF as we know he was already involved in discussions with the prosecutors office in relation to them. Maybe he honestly felt they were too weak but I feel he is more talking to the media here than a genuine assessment of the indictments. Typical stuff any defence counsel says.

I also see now that there is somehow an idea that he was saving the jurisdiction challenge up as a trick - but that isn't how this works. It makes no difference if he makes that challenge now or later - the result for the MM case is the same either way. Indeed if FF is successful, its probably more likely to frustrate the prosecutor now in the investigatory phase than when they have indicted on a murder charge
FF is quoted on MSM and the quote has never been rescinded
Snip
Defence lawyer for CB, FF said he was “amazed” by the indictment.
 
It's unlikely that the 5 charges were a surprise to FF as we know he was already involved in discussions with the prosecutors office in relation to them. Maybe he honestly felt they were too weak but I feel he is more talking to the media here than a genuine assessment of the indictments. Typical stuff any defence counsel says.

^ Maybe he did - the full quote -

Defence lawyer for Brückner Friedrich Fülscher said he was “amazed” by the indictment. It “leaves out exculpatory aspects” for his client, he said, and was “based almost exclusively on the statements of two dubious witnesses about the content of missing video recordings”.

But yes, less surprised, more just doing his job (as you say) by expressing public 'astonishment' that some of the charges relied upon such spurious evidence.
 
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The thing is you don't really save things up for later in litigation as the whole point is to get the best result for your client ie. to avoid getting indicted, going to trial etc

This is why FF will have told them that he intended to contest jurisdiction in the pre-indictment phase, to try to get them to go away

In relation to German procedure, please clarify when the pre-indictment phase to which you refer took place in relation to the five sexually motivated crimes with which CB was charged on 11 October 2022.
 
^ Precisely that, as evident in the full quote:
Indictments indicate what the offender is charged with. They are not an opportunity for the defence to argue the case - that's what the courts are for.

My opinion
 
In a statement to MailOnline Mr Fulscher said: 'In its decision of April 19, 2023, the Regional Court of Braunschweig declared that it had no jurisdiction over the charge against Christian B. and revoked the arrest warrant against him.

'The defense already pointed out during the preliminary proceedings that the Braunschweig judiciary should not have local jurisdiction.

'For reasons that are not understandable here, the public prosecutor's office in Braunschweig clung to its jurisdiction and thus risked being overturned by the Federal Court of Justice if it were opened. This is very questionable, in particular given the fact that a large number of witnesses would have had to appear in court again (on very incriminating issues) in the event of an annulment.

 
In a statement to MailOnline Mr Fulscher said: 'In its decision of April 19, 2023, the Regional Court of Braunschweig declared that it had no jurisdiction over the charge against Christian B. and revoked the arrest warrant against him.

'The defense already pointed out during the preliminary proceedings that the Braunschweig judiciary should not have local jurisdiction.

'For reasons that are not understandable here, the public prosecutor's office in Braunschweig clung to its jurisdiction and thus risked being overturned by the Federal Court of Justice if it were opened. This is very questionable, in particular given the fact that a large number of witnesses would have had to appear in court again (on very incriminating issues) in the event of an annulment.

Thankyou for going to the trouble of sourcing that information which I presume is in response to my query (post #389 this thread). I am however already familiar with that source (see #380 this thread) and it doesn't give the answer to what is a very relevant question regarding a timescale which may factual but has not been proved to be so but is cited as fact.
Quote
In relation to German procedure, please clarify when the pre-indictment phase to which you refer took place in relation to the five sexually motivated crimes with which CB was charged on 11 October 2022. end quote

The jurisdiction of criminal cases in Germany is a very complex issue without inbuilt error inadvertently being added to the mix.
Snip
Section 8
Venue at domicile or habitual residence

(1) Venue is also deemed to be established in the court in whose district the indicted accused has his or her domicile at the time the charges are preferred.
(2) If the indicted accused has no domicile within the territorial scope of this federal statute, venue is also determined by his or her habitual residence and, if such place of residence is not known, by his or her last domicile.
Section 9
Venue at place of apprehension

Venue is also deemed to be established in the court in whose district the accused was apprehended.
Section 12
Concurrence of more than one venue

(1) If more than one court has jurisdiction pursuant to the provisions of sections 7 to 11a and 13a, the court which first opened the investigation takes precedence.
(2) The investigation and decision may, however, be transferred to one of the other competent courts by the common upper court.
Section 13
Venue for connected criminal cases

(1) Venue for connected criminal cases each of which, pursuant to the provisions of sections 7 to 11, would be subject to the jurisdiction of different courts, is deemed to be established in each court having jurisdiction over one of the criminal cases.
(2) If several connected criminal cases are pending before different courts, they may be joined, in whole or in part, before one of the courts where such courts so agree, upon application by the public prosecution office. If no such agreement is reached, then upon application by the public prosecution office or an indicted accused, the common upper court is required to decide whether and in which court the cases are to be joined.
(3) Cases which have been joined may be severed in the same manner.
Section 13a
Determination of jurisdiction by Federal Court of Justice

If venue cannot be established in any court within the territorial scope of this federal statute, or if such court cannot be ascertained, then the Federal Court of Justice decides which court is competent.
Section 16
Review of local jurisdiction; objection of lack of jurisdiction

(1) Prior to the opening of the main proceedings, the court is required to review its local jurisdiction ex officio. Thereafter, it may declare its lack of jurisdiction only upon an objection being filed by the defendant. The defendant may only file such an objection up until the commencement of his or her examination on the charges in the main hearing.
(2) Where charges have been preferred by the European Public Prosecutor’s Office, the court also conducts a review, based on an objection filed by the defendant, to establish whether the European Public Prosecutor’s Office is authorised, pursuant to Article 36 (3) of Regulation (EU) 2017/1939 of the Council of 12 October 2017 implementing enhanced cooperation on the establishment of the European Public Prosecutor’s Office (ʻthe EPPOʼ) (OJ L 283, 31.10.2017, p. 1), to prefer charges before a court within the territorial scope of this statute. Subsection (1) sentence 3 applies accordingly.
:::: :::: :::: :::: :::: ::::

Every contingency appears to have been covered so eventually it seems someone will bring CB to trial somewhere. It will just take time to cover all the bases :rolleyes:
 
It's all semantics, FF is quoted as bringing the jurisdiction issue up at a preliminary hearing , ie: pre indictment.

It's of no consequence though, as of this moment CB is no longer facing the 5 charges he was indicted for in Oct 22 until such time the issue is resolved.
 
It's all semantics, FF is quoted as bringing the jurisdiction issue up at a preliminary hearing , ie: pre indictment.

It's of no consequence though, as of this moment CB is no longer facing the 5 charges he was indicted for in Oct 22 until such time the issue is resolved.

As we’ve discussed in previous threads in the preliminary phase before indictments the prosecutor must investigate exculpatory evidence. It seems in that process they were in liaison with FF.

FF clearly knew these indictments might be issued. For instance we know he was discussing the HB evidence with the prosecutor due to his claims about the birthmark

It makes no difference whether this jurisdiction issue was considered in respect of the MM case or the 5 indictments

For all FF knows his client may never be charged in the former case.

I’d be interested to know if CB was interrogated before the indictments
 
As we’ve discussed in previous threads in the preliminary phase before indictments the prosecutor must investigate exculpatory evidence. It seems in that process they were in liaison with FF.

FF clearly knew these indictments might be issued. For instance we know he was discussing the HB evidence with the prosecutor due to his claims about the birthmark

It makes no difference whether this jurisdiction issue was considered in respect of the MM case or the 5 indictments

For all FF knows his client may never be charged in the former case.

I’d be interested to know if CB was interrogated before the indictments
There were reports of CB having his body photographed in relation to the alleged mark, no doubt his legal team would have been present so questions might have been asked then.
July 2022.

Mr Wolters told a press conference on Friday that Mr Brueckner's defence lawyer, Friedrich Fülscher, still has time to comment on those additional, alleged offences, before a decision on charges will be made.
 
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It's all semantics, FF is quoted as bringing the jurisdiction issue up at a preliminary hearing , ie: pre indictment.

It's of no consequence though, as of this moment CB is no longer facing the 5 charges he was indicted for in Oct 22 until such time the issue is resolved.
The ultimate consequence for CB is that he will eventually face trial for the five cases of sexual depravity with which he was charged.

The evidence against him won't go away.

It will be tested in court as will the evidence deciding which court that will be.
If memory serves me well CB was taken to Hamburg after extradition from Italy prior to facing two unrelated indictments for sexual crimes at both ends of the age spectrum.

I'm sure the correct court for CB's trial will eventually be established.
Snip
Section 11

Venue for offences committed abroad by extraterritorial German nationals and German civil servants
(1) In the case of Germans who enjoy the right of extraterritoriality and civil servants of the Federal Government or of one of the Länder employed abroad, venue is determined by the domicile which they had in Germany. If they had no such domicile, the seat of the Federal Government is considered to be their domicile.

 
No one is arguing the evidence won't go away, the court as of this moment agree with CB'S legal team that domicile is an issue within the legal framework of the German system.
One wonders why an appeal against this should be made, its not like its two rival companies competing over a lucrative contract, its peoples lives here from the victims of crimes to an alleged perpetrator.
 
As we’ve discussed in previous threads in the preliminary phase before indictments the prosecutor must investigate exculpatory evidence. It seems in that process they were in liaison with FF.

FF clearly knew these indictments might be issued. For instance we know he was discussing the HB evidence with the prosecutor due to his claims about the birthmark

It makes no difference whether this jurisdiction issue was considered in respect of the MM case or the 5 indictments

For all FF knows his client may never be charged in the former case.

I’d be interested to know if CB was interrogated before the indictments
Your opinion of FF's claimed actions might be way off the mark unless you substantiate them with a cite.
The information to which you refer was available in the MSM in 2020.

Snip

Tue 9 Jun 2020 06.00 BST

“I had gone to bed around 1am, and was awoken by someone calling my name. I turned on to my back and standing there was a masked man dressed in tights and what resembled a leotard, a machete around 12in long in his hand,” she said.

The man, who she later told police spoke English with a German accent, was about 6ft 1in. He wore a mask that covered his whole head, she said, “but I could see he had blond eyebrows, and piercing blue eyes, even in the dark”.

She also recalled a distinctive mark on the top of his right thigh, “either a pull in the tights, a birthmark or a tattoo”. In descriptions of CB in the German media, he is said to have birthmarks on his upper right thigh.
 
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It's all semantics, FF is quoted as bringing the jurisdiction issue up at a preliminary hearing , ie: pre indictment.

It's of no consequence though, as of this moment CB is no longer facing the 5 charges he was indicted for in Oct 22 until such time the issue is resolved.
Exactly. I can't see that dates are of any importance. The present state of affairs will remain until jurisdiction is decided.
 
No one is arguing the evidence won't go away, the court as of this moment agree with CB'S legal team that domicile is an issue within the legal framework of the German system.
One wonders why an appeal against this should be made, its not like its two rival companies competing over a lucrative contract, its peoples lives here from the victims of crimes to an alleged perpetrator.
On the presumption that you are responding to my post #396 on this thread where I said "The evidence against him won't go away."

As can be seen from recent posts regarding the issue of jurisdiction FF has chosen a minefield with the proven potential of delaying due process.

There might even be more to come just using the existing legislation. For example
Section 24
Challenge of judges; fear of bias

 
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