Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #39

[WestLondoner]

There is no way a prosecutor would choose to run with his lesser charges while sitting on a murder indictment unless the murder case wasn't ready to go.

When would CB be released otherwise? I wonder if the rationale for the lesser charges could be to get him re-convicted and thereby keep him in jail for a couple more years, i.e. long enough to prepare the murder case.

 

[RichardKimble]

I don't know how right you will be regarding there being no other distraction for a trial to take place. I'm sure CB's defence team will find something.
Had it not been for following the precedent of DM's rape trial with the unexpected indictments for five others getting in the way, one could have expected years of litigation had it been the MM case being charged.

There will be a contingency plan.

My opinion

It's been pointed out before HCW has been unequivocal in that CB killed Madeleine, CB's legal team can't alter that fact.HCW either has the proof or he doesnt.

 

[Davieson]

Presumably the prosecution Service has some sort of review system to determine if its still worthwhile pursuing a case if progress is slow or even non-existent, so I can't imagine that this can continue indefinitely without charging.

 

[Mex]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed> You are right that no-one would have been interested in CB but only insofar as the tracking of investigators of MM's case which ultimately indicated leads worth following either to eliminate or to follow through.

In 2016 as far as SY was concerned there was ultimately only one lead remaining to be followed before shutdown. The fact that the continuation of SY's investigation continues suggests it was a productive one which may have been shared with the BKA.

Snip
The Scotland Yard boss, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, said investigators were following one remaining line of inquiry and unless any new evidence emerged, that would spell the end of the British investigation.
Speaking on LBC radio, Hogan-Howe said: “There’s been a lot of investigation time spent on this terrible case.
“It’s needed us to carry out an investigation together with the Portuguese and other countries have been involved. There is a line of inquiry that remains to be concluded and it’s expected that in the coming months that will happen.”
He added: “There is a line of inquiry that everybody agrees is worthwhile pursuing.”

“First of all, the line of inquiry that is being pursued, that obviously is important and it is important that is resolved, and I think it will be. If something new comes forward we will investigate it, but that line of inquiry probably at the moment is the conclusion of this inquiry.”

Madeleine McCann inquiry could end in months, says Met chief

Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe says police are pursuing one line of inquiry but will wind up case if no new evidence emerges

www.theguardian.com

The fact remains that international law enforcement have cooperated with Scotland Yard's Operation Grange since 2013 and in that time CB is the only suspect in crimes against MM.

 

[Mex]

Presumably the prosecution Service has some sort of review system to determine if its still worthwhile pursuing a case if progress is slow or even non-existent, so I can't imagine that this can continue indefinitely without charging.

I believe the protocol is that as long as there are investigative opportunities the investigation continues.

Earlier in the thread I linked to an example when MM's case would have been shut down had investigation reached conclusion. It did not shut down because investigative opportunities remained and obviously still do.

Madeleine McCann inquiry could end in months, says Met chief

Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe says police are pursuing one line of inquiry but will wind up case if no new evidence emerges

www.theguardian.com

 

[mrjitty]

Hard to understand, because there had been discussions again and again in here, that it could be the first stage of paving the way, up to a possible modus operandi, especially heading to a possible charge and probably a preventive detention as a result in the MM case.

Snipped for focus.

The weakness of this as a prosecutorial strategy is you don't need to wait 2 years to run a whole different trial to prove MO. You already have the DM conviction, and you can introduce your new evidence together in the MM trial.

What does sometimes happen is you hit the defendant with lesser charges because your main case is not ready yet. I think that is much more likely here. e.g in the Libby Squire case they hit him with a lot of MO charges because they didn't have the body yet.

As you correctly point out, taking out a suspected murder in the long term via 3 aggravated rape charges is a great result for a prosecutor faced with a difficult murder indictment. His strategy need not be more than that.

my 02c

 

[RichardKimble]

Snipped for focus.

The weakness of this as a prosecutorial strategy is you don't need to wait 2 years to run a whole different trial to prove MO. You already have the DM conviction, and you can introduce your new evidence together in the MM trial.

What does sometimes happen is you hit the defendant with lesser charges because your main case is not ready yet. I think that is much more likely here. e.g in the Libby Squire case they hit him with a lot of MO charges because they didn't have the body yet.

As you correctly point out, taking out a suspected murder in the long term via 3 aggravated rape charges is a great result for a prosecutor faced with a difficult murder indictment. His strategy need not be more than that.

my 02c

Then it's a easy cop out for HCW, if CB gets put away for some length there would no need for any ongoing investigation into the MM case all would need to be said is he has evidence but can't prove it, ( which seems the likely scenario) effectively ending any investigation. imo.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Then it's a easy cop out for HCW, if CB gets put away for some length there would no need for any ongoing investigation into the MM case all would need to be said is he has evidence but can't prove it, ( which seems the likely scenario) effectively ending any investigation. imo.

BIB, ending it in a very unsatisfactory manner. If this is how it ends, many people, including me, will never believe CB is responsible for MM's disappearance. It will be very poor justice for Madeleine. But I have a strong suspicion you will be correct.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Snipped for focus.

The weakness of this as a prosecutorial strategy is you don't need to wait 2 years to run a whole different trial to prove MO. You already have the DM conviction and can introduce your new evidence in the MM trial.

Sometimes, you hit the defendant with lesser charges because your main case is not ready yet. I think that is much more likely here. e.g in the Libby Squire case they hit him with a lot of MO charges because they didn't have the body yet.

As you correctly point out, taking out a suspected murder in the long term via three aggravated rape charges is an excellent result for a prosecutor faced with a difficult murder indictment. His strategy need not be more than that.

my 02c

In a scenario where CB is incarcerated for life and does not face charges for any crime against MM but, due to the media conviction, is openly considered guilty, is there a timeline for the prosecutors to make the evidence public, or will we have to wait for prosecutors and investigators to resign/retire and divulge what they know and never receive a formal answer as to what allegedly happened to MM?

 

[WestLondoner]

Yes, if someone is in jail for life anyway, it's not clear what the public good is in convicting them of something further. If the prosecution fails it's a waste of public money, and if it succeeds, the perp was already in jail anyway, so it's still a waste of public money.

It makes more sense if the perp has some prospect of being released. If the goal is to prevent this, then an equally effective way is to charge him not with the worst thing he's done, but with those crimes where you have the best case, and hence the best chance of a conviction.

If CB is inside until 2026, then the optimal outcome to keep him inside would be to convict him of something else just as he's due to be released. He then gets in effect consecutive sentences amounting to life. It's arguably unsatisfactory if he killed MM that he never does time for doing so, but OTOH, Al Capone did his time for tax evasion and few people now doubt he was a racketeer.

 

[Mex]

Perhaps HB does have more of a statement for a court than the hearsay of the Dragon Festival in Spain.
Did he contact the PJ in 2007 with information about CB and MM?
If he did and it checks out his information might be useful in putting CB at the heart of the case in 2007.
My opinion


Snip
Citing a memo prepared by the Greek Police on 18 July 2017, To Vima reports that the German national had contacted the Grange team last May the aim to help investigation. The Police memo was based on a briefing the Greek police representative in London had received by the Metropolitan Police of UK.

The 46-year-old had reportedly given to Metropolitan Policed “voluntarily and without any financial or other consideration, information about the case that has been cross-checked” and “he is considered a reliable source.”
________________________________________
“I give important information for the case. On the day Madeleine disappeared I was also in the particular province in Portugal, in a neighboring area,” the German national told the newspaper. He claimed that he had contacted the local police back then but there was no further investigation.

Scotland Yard is looking for Madeleine’s secret in Athens - Keep Talking Greece

Scotland Yard is looking for the secret of British toddler Madeleine McCann in Athens after a witnes

www.keeptalkinggreece.com

 

[mrjitty]

Responding to a number of ideas here in one post.

Personally I don't think the prosecutor indicts cases in such a 9D chess way.

Rather he simply charges the cases that meet the legal standard to be charged. I am more suggesting if he does get the conviction on the HB charge and CB collects a long sentence for it, he can be reasonably happy with the practical outcome of going public, if not the optics.

 

[WestLondoner]

In a scenario where CB is incarcerated for life and does not face charges for any crime against MM but, due to the media conviction, is openly considered guilty, is there a timeline for the prosecutors to make the evidence public, or will we have to wait for prosecutors and investigators to resign/retire and divulge what they know and never receive a formal answer as to what allegedly happened to MM?

The situation may be different in Germany, but in the UK, we have that situation in respect of the 1986 disappearance of Suzy Lamplugh.

The police have indicated their only suspect is someone doing life for murdering someone else. The CPS did not think the police case good enough to go to trial, specifically because they had no proof he had ever met her. We now have various retired police officers asserting nonetheless that he did it. The case they present in public is negligible, so either that's all they've got, or if they've got more, they can't say out loud what it is, and it didn't persuade the CPS in any case.

We could be headed somewhere similar here - circumstantial grounds to suspect CB, but not enough to convict him on, he's going to do another 20 years anyway and meanwhile retiring police officers will divulge what they're allowed to in the books they'll write.

 

[mrjitty]

In a scenario where CB is incarcerated for life and does not face charges for any crime against MM but, due to the media conviction, is openly considered guilty, is there a timeline for the prosecutors to make the evidence public, or will we have to wait for prosecutors and investigators to resign/retire and divulge what they know and never receive a formal answer as to what allegedly happened to MM?

I think the case will go cold and we will never know.

For me the next weeks will reveal all. If it was just the jurisdiction standing in the way, the murder indictment should drop immediately as they have had months to get it ready. if not, then I would not expect to see anything. Brunt has already suggested nothing is expected this year based on his conversations with HCW.

 

[Mex]

In a scenario where CB is incarcerated for life and does not face charges for any crime against MM but, due to the media conviction, is openly considered guilty, is there a timeline for the prosecutors to make the evidence public, or will we have to wait for prosecutors and investigators to resign/retire and divulge what they know and never receive a formal answer as to what allegedly happened to MM?

Investigators who have been following the evidence in trying to reach conclusion of exactly what happened to MM and who is responsible, have a vested interest in solving her case.

The point appearing to be overlooked is that CB who is the prime suspect in the MM case will be the victim of the success of German criminal investigators should he be sentenced to spending the rest of his life in jail.
He will also be the victim of his own criminality over a period of years.

He is a proven career criminal and sexual deviant who has already been caught lawbreaking and who, if his guilt is proven in the five pending cases will suffer the penalty set in law for his crimes. For which no-one but he is guilty.

I don't see the opportunity for any cop out in MM's case.

CB broke the law and if his proven crimes are such that the severest penalty under law are considered appropriate it is no-one's fault but his own.

The difficulties of the MM case are well recognised and assurances have been given that it will continue. There is no reason to doubt that.

There is no reason to doubt that should her case be solved it will continue as a stepping stone to other cases of a similar nature similar being revisited.
The CB saga has a few chapters left in it yet inclusive of MM's case.

My opinion

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Investigators who have been following the evidence in trying to reach conclusion of exactly what happened to MM and who is responsible, have a vested interest in solving her case.

The point appearing to be overlooked is that CB who is the prime suspect in the MM case will be the victim of the success of German criminal investigators should he be sentenced to spending the rest of his life in jail.
He will also be the victim of his own criminality over a period of years.

He is a proven career criminal and sexual deviant who has already been caught lawbreaking and who, if his guilt is proven in the five pending cases will suffer the penalty set in law for his crimes. For which no-one but he is guilty.

I don't see the opportunity for any cop out in MM's case.

CB broke the law and if his proven crimes are such that the severest penalty under law are considered appropriate it is no-one's fault but his own.

The difficulties of the MM case are well recognised and assurances have been given that it will continue. There is no reason to doubt that.

There is no reason to doubt that should her case be solved it will continue as a stepping stone to other cases of a similar nature similar being revisited.
The CB saga has a few chapters left in it yet inclusive of MM's case.

My opinion

I can’t speak for everyone but I’m sure most people on this forum readily accept that CB has committed horrendous crimes - this is a proven fact.

Frankly, I have no interest in him outside of the MM case.

I am interested in the MM case and I would be very dissatisfied if the media trial and verdict were the final outcome of the case.

IMO, it doesn’t pass muster as justice. Not at all.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I think the case will go cold and we will never know.

For me the next weeks will reveal all. If it was just the jurisdiction standing in the way, the murder indictment should drop immediately as they have had months to get it ready. if not, then I would not expect to see anything. Brunt has already suggested nothing is expected this year based on his conversations with HCW.

Let’s hope we see a charge then. The alternative would be a terribly sad outcome to a long sad story.

 

[Davieson]

Let’s hope we see a charge then. The alternative would be a terribly sad outcome to a long sad story.

There is the alternative that he had nothing to do with MM.
Is it worse to charge an innocent person than not charge a guilty one ?

 

[Denis R Tandib]

There is the alternative that he had nothing to do with MM.
Is it worse to charge an innocent person than not charge a guilty one ?

I think it’s a real alternative.

Nevertheless, I would prefer to see his guilt or innocence tested in court.

For me, this is a much better conclusion than the assumed guilt based on secret evidence scenario we have at the moment.

 

[mrjitty]

Agreed. i'd like to see him charged if like HCW said they already had enough to charge