Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #1

[Mrs G Norris]

So he wants the Ukrainians to bear responsibility, meanwhile the black boxes are on their way to Moscow. Doesn't mind having it both ways does he?

He also said "this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace in this land, or in any case, if [Kiev] had not renewed hostilities in south-eastern Ukraine."

He said that he has given "instructions to the military so that they have all the necessary help in the investigation of this crime", and that he's requested the government's civilian agencies to assist as best in can in the investigation. He added that "no one has the right" to make conclusions without comprehensive, "objective information about the incident".

^^ All of the above is infuriating, 'it's all their fault, we will take control and prove it' what a load.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live

 

[Momoffourboys]

Beyond horrific.
Graphic photos.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/flight-mh17-crash-photos_n_5595830.html

 

[ZaZara]

Dutch -French photographer Pierre Crom visited the area and due to curfew is now back in his hotel.

http://nieuwsuur.nl/video/676200

He says the scene is apocaliptic. Saw the body of a five-year old girl among the dead.
The entire area is covered with bodies and bodyparts, they are searching in the cornfields too
Witnesses spoke of a rain of bodyparts that fell from the sky on the roof of a house.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Through his VK.com account, Russia’s version of Facebook, the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Girkin — who goes by the nom de guerre Igor Strelkov — boasted about shooting down a plane.

"We did warn you — do not fly in our sky," he wrote.

Thinking it was a Ukrainian transport plane, Strelkov added that “a plane has just been downed somewhere around Torez, it lays there behind the 'Progress' mine,” referring to the mining town of some 80,000 people.

“And here is the video proving another 'bird' falling down,” he continued. “The bird went down behind a slagheap, not in a residential district. So no peaceful people were injured,” Strelkov wrote, adding that there is also information about a Ukrainian military plane shot down.

However, Strelkov deleted the post when he found out it was actually a commercial jetliner carrying 295 innocent people — not a military aircraft.

http://mashable.com/2014/07/17/mala...:eyJzIjoiZiIsImkiOiJfbGNsajlqeXE2cXNjbjJxMyJ9

 

[2rose]

Malaysia PM says downed jetliner's flight route was declared safe by world civil aviation body

I find that very bizarre, considering this is a known area for fighting going on.

It was supposed to be a safe route at 30,000' because the ground missles can't reach above 20,000'.
I wonder if the height difference could have been overcome by locating the shooter on a mountain ???

Shooters that can go over 20,000' DO exist (for instance Israel has them)
but they were't known to be in the posession of those in the Ukraine area.

All flights over the Ukraine have NOW been declared unsafe.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

On Wednesday, the Ukrainian government claimed that a Russian military plane shot down a Ukrainian fighter jet. Just two days ago, Ukrainian officials suggested that a military transport plane carrying food and water for troops was shot down by an advanced rocket system fired from Russia.

http://mashable.com/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-russia-rebel/#:eyJzIjoiZiIsImkiOiJfbGNsajlqeXE2cXNjbjJxMyJ9

 

[jjenny]

It was supposed to be a safe route at 30,000' because the ground missles can't reach above 20,000'.
I wonder if the height difference could have been overcome by locating the shooter on a mountain ???

All flights over the Ukraine have NOW been declared unsafe.

Are there any mountains that high in Ukraine?

 

[ZaZara]

Guardian Live Blog:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live



Guardian diplomatic editor Julian Borger has written a quick analysis on possibilities in the aftermath of MH17's crash:

The Ukrainian civil war is the world's concern now. What impact this will have, beyond the immediate tragedy, on how the conflict unfolds is going to depend on who is responsible and how they respond.

If the eastern rebels are to blame, as Kiev is asserting, all eyes will be on Moscow, as it is almost certain that the more sophisticated weapons in their arsenal, including anti-aircraft missiles, came from Russia.

One scenario is that on investigation, Russia discovers the downing of the airliner was indeed the work of the rebels using a weapon that came from Russian stocks, and the realisation causes a stepping back from its high-stakes, high-risk involvement in the conflict.

In the early hours following the tragedy, such a scenario looks optimistic. Russian media have already gone into deny-and-blame mode, some even going so far as to say President Putin's jet was in the same general area as MH17 over Polish airspace earlier, and that the attack was "an attempt to shoot down his plane".

Reports out of Moscow have said that the rebels do not have the Buk missile system that is suspected here, although the same agencies only recently said that they did.

BBM

 

[Mrs G Norris]

^^ either way there is no point in having the Russians investigate this, they're just going to blame Kiev.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I did not follow 370 as close as many of you , for sure. But , at that time, I was following Russia/Ukraine/Crimea pretty closely . When 370 disappeared after a few days of no news, I did wonder if they could be related. Not knowing really how things operate over there, I could not figure out the how, why, when, who of it. So I didn't put a lot of thought into it. Today, however, I am sure they are related. I 'm wondering could Malaysia be helping one side or the other? Could both planes have been carrying personnel, supplies, intelligence, weaponry? I don't know which side it would be but it's all I can come up with now. Maybe Malaysia is a ' silent partner' to one side or the other and does not want their other friends , allies and / or enemies to know , so they have been secretly trying to aid one side or the other in the Russia/ Ukraine conflict.

Strange days , my friends !

I finally had a chance to read through this discussion. I posted a couple of pages ago that I couldn't help wondering if today's airline disaster and that of MH370 could be related. I'm not thoroughly convinced, but I thought about some of the same possibilities that you've listed here. This is what I was thinking when I suggested that the two catastrophic events might somehow be related.

 

[jjenny]

^^ either way there is no point in having the Russians investigate this, they're just going to blame Kiev.

How do you know that Ukraine is not responsible? In 2001, Ukraine allegedly had military exercises and hit a plane flying from Russia to Israel.

 

[lonetraveler]

The more I hear about this the more I think it was shot down by Russian separatists by accident. I think they misidentified it as a Ukrainian military plane. JMO

I'm thinking the very same right now.

 

[jjenny]

I'm thinking the very same right now.

They don't have the capability to shot down a plane flying that high. And we know Ukraine does have the capability as they already allegedly shot down a plane in 2001 that was flying from Russia to Israel.

 

[Hatfield]

These are supposed to be covert recordings of Russian Military officers shooting down the plane and suddenly realizing it's a passenger plane.
http://youtu.be/V5E8kDo2n6g

Here's the article that states that.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live

If this proves to be true, this is incredible.

Does this imply that perhaps Russia military themselves were in the area to help the "rebels" in the regional conflict? Maybe supplying more than weapons but their military people too?
The conflict in the area is so confusing, i have no idea if this is implying that or not.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Let's not pretend that the rebels don't have the full support and help of Russia.

U.S. Officials: Russia Increasing Support for Ukraine Rebels

By Jim Garamone
DoD News, Defense Media Activity

WASHINGTON, July 17, 2014 – Obama administration officials say Russia’s support for pro-Russian separatists in neighboring Ukraine is increasing, and Pentagon officials are citing a buildup of Russian forces along their shared border.

“We are concerned about the build-up we see along the Russia-Ukraine border,” Pentagon Spokesman Army Col. Steve Warren said. “Overall, the increase in Russian presence along the Ukrainian border is concerning.”

He spoke just as reports were emerging that a Malaysian commercial airliner had crashed in eastern Ukraine and may have been shot down. Pentagon Press Secretary Rear Adm. John Kirby said Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel has been briefed on the situation but said U.S. defense officials could not confirm details.

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=122695

 

[ZaZara]

A blog by Dr Mark Galeotti who has been researching Russian history and security issues since the late 1980s.

https://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress....e-lost/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

<modsnip>
BBM

 

[trigger]

Ukraine Claims These Recordings Prove Rebels Shot Down Malaysian Airliner Carrying 295 People.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...-down-malaysian-airliner-carrying-295-people/

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

I don't believe there's any connection at all. Well, maybe one - the airline isn't in a good place financially, wasn't before 370 vanished, and thus the decision to take the most "economic" permitted route (they've broken no rules etc by flying at a permitted height) may come from the added financial pressure. The rebels posted that they had shot down a plane - they even had video of it - which was suddenly deleted. It's a common tactic. This is verified video of the transport plane shot down on 14 July:

[video]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bb2_1405337959[/video]

Flightaware24 posted this https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsxF_J_CcAAycNi.png:large which shows other commercial planes in the area.

 

[Intermezzo]

OMG!!!!!
I saw this being reported during my lunch break..
I just can't believe it .....I am in utter shock
Those poor souls...all I thought of was how many families were on board, how many children...it's July..it's vacation time..

May they have gone quickly and May they All Rest in Peace

 

[2rose]

Are there any mountains that high in Ukraine?

I don't know the answer to that question but my guess (or current opinion) would be yes.
I also don't know whether Russia has those kind of far reaching missile shooters
but again my guess (or current opinion) would be yes.
And there are some who wonder if Russia could be complicit in this incident
by supplying the pro-Russian separtists with those kind of shooters.