Manorville Bodies: A Second Killer? Latest Remains found 02/17/2012

[KAYTOM]

Well, yes and no... From the article her body was found by a woman walking her dog... from what I can tell, somewhere in this location.

"On a Saturday morning in the summer of 2003, a woman walking her dog down Halsey Manor Road, near the Long Island Expressway overpass, took a turn down a small paved road leading to a gated sump on one side, and lined by the Pine Barrens on the other." ( link)​

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...0.878754,-72.781842&spn=0.000945,0.00176&z=20

I could be wrong on the location... but from the description, this area does have a paved road going off Halsey Manor Road, a fenced area, and is right off LIE. If the above map is correct, it seems a lot less "in plain sight" than the spokesperson claims. Also, the other woman's body was found in the woods. Again, and imho, hardly "in plain sight."

I am pretty sure I read that she was found on a pile of debris at the end of that little road.

 

[stillwatersc]

Re:http://www.longislandpress.com/2011/03/24/long-islands-other-serial-killer/3/

"Taylor was an upstate New York native, last seen on the streets of Manhattan, working near the Port Authority Bus Terminal, the week before her body was found, according to police reports. She had been arrested for prostitution in Atlantic City, New York and D.C., where she had just relocated from that same month. Little else is known about Taylor; she was estranged from her family. She had been working near the Port Authority Bus Terminal between July 18-21, an area once known as the Minnesota Strip—a term coined by cops in the ’70s because that stretch of Eighth Avenue between 42nd and 50th Streets was known for prostitution, and when Minnesota passed tough anti-prostitution laws, many women left for the streets of NYC."

Commonalities of Jessica Taylor with the December Four Gilgo Beach (wrapped in Burlap):
She worked as a prostitute
Was last known to be working near the Port Authority
Parts of her were disposed of on the OP and within a mile of the Four December CL women.
She was found in an area where FOUR BODIES were disposed of. She was one of the four.
She disappeared in JULY!
She was petite.
She was a brunette.
She actually resembles ALC and MBB. Brown hair and greenish blue eyes.

From the same article: "If you live here and you knew the woods, you wouldn’t pull over and leave [a body] practically on the side of the road,” says Danny, adamant that the “Butcher of Manorville” is a butcher from somewhere else. “Unless you want it to be found.”

Her torso was dumped just to the side of the road in plain sight.

http://www.longislandpress.com/2011/05/10/linking-the-manorville-and-gilgo-homicides/

" Taylor was last seen just weeks before working the streets near the Port Authority Bus Terminal in Manhattan, "

 

[stillwatersc]

Jessica Taylor

Maureen Brainard-Barnes

 

[Seaslug44]

I feel like it's one serial killer. Maybe someone else killed the baby but there are too many similarities between the burlap murders and Jessica. To me, these killings don't feel like 'hits'. Some of these bodies weren't found for years. If these murders were supposed to send a message, the bodies would have been found quickly and the killer would have wanted the remains to be identified.

a murder doesn't necessarily have to be a 'hit' to be committed by a in an organized crime group.

What do sex slave rings do with their girls who accidentally overdose and die while on the job?

How would a prostitution agency react if a client called them and announced that one of their girls died while with them? Do you think they would risk the negative publicity and/or the heat from law enforcement or would they have one of their thugs "make both of them disappear and make it look like the work of a serial killer".

I still think we are all being duped into thinking there is a serial killer on the loose. Everyone is well aware of Long Island's two convicted sk's and how they prayed upon prostitutes. It would be very easy to make deaths look like they are the work of another one (when in fact they are the work of an organization).

 

[Wondergirl]

Just so I have this right:
Killer 1: 4 burlap-wrapped sex workers who advertised on Craig's List
Killer 2: 2 dismembered women left in Manorville; their hands, feet & head left on Gilgo beach
Killer 3: Asian man
Killer 4: Toddler girl
?

Thanks for this.

I think it might be incorrect though? I don't think the toddler girl is factored into the homicide equation yet, but, I could be wrong.

Victims 9 & 10 have not had their identity released, and I *think* LE is considering Killer 4 as their killer?:waitasec:

So, I think Killer 4 as you posted, should be unknown Victims #9 and 10.

In March, cops uncovered body parts from victim No. 5 now identified as 20-year-old Jessica Taylor, a prostitute who disappeared in 2003. But they had already found body parts from her, miles away, years ago.

In March, they found her head, hands and a forearm. Cops say this killer went a long way to try and conceal her identity, butchering the body and even trying to remove a tattoo.

Cops say there are similarities to how the killer treated victim No. 6, who police are calling Jane Doe 6. Her body parts were also found east of Gilgo beach in early April. Police believe they were both killed by killer No. 2.

Body No. 7 is that of a female toddler wrapped in a blanket. Police say the little girl's body showed no signs of trauma.

Cops say victim No. 8 is an unidentified Asian man in his 20s. Police say he died a violent death, and his killer is most likely killer No. 3.

Police are still working to identify victims numbered 9 and 10, both found on the Nassau County side.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/wpix-multiple-killers-li-body-search,0,4815725.story

 

[stillwatersc]

Melissa Barthelemy

 

[Just K]

Please explain the burlap. I didn't read anywhere about burlap @ Manorville.

Just meant Jessica's commonalities with the GB4 who were found in Burlap...not that Manorville had any burlap associated with that crime scene.

 

[future criminologist]

So now that we know Manorville and Oak Beach are connected, we have the following:

- female victim found in 2000;
- female victim found in 2003;
- female victims at Oak Beach who disappeared/were killed between 2007 and 2010.
- an Asian male and a toddler who possibly went missing and were killed much earlier (no specific year or timeframe indicated).

What we do have is a gap in time between Jessica Taylor and the four victims at Oak Beach. Is it possible that there are more victims between 2003 and 2007 who were reported missing and have yet to be found?

I am going to look thru the MPs tonight who may fit this SK's profile, and come up with some possibles....wanted to find out what the forum thinks of this though.

 

[nugzter]

I did a basic timeline of all female ID'd victims.
Name Missing Type
JT 18-21 July 2003 Dismembered-Plactic bag
MBB 9 July 2007 Burlap-Strangled
MB 12 July 2009 Burlap-Strangled
MW 5 June 2010 Burlap-Strangled
ALC 2 Sept. 2010 Burlap-Strangled


There are still more victims to be ID and its hard to see the big picture. But the fact is the earliest victims (JT and 1 unID'd) were dismembered and dumped in plastic bags. That is one distinct pattern. Latest 4 ID'd victims in burlap and strangled. That is one distinct pattern plus one tight cluster as per the latest maps. If it were the work of 1 SK why make it more difficult to dispose of the bodies? Why switch to burlap? Why no longer dismember the victims? SK's do change their tactics, mostly if there is a problem with the murder, if the heat is on, or just practice makes perfect. None of these seem to fit. So my natural thought is 2 killers, one of them is a SK. The other is possibly a pimp, dealer or human-trafficker. IMO

 

[KAYTOM]

Thanks for this.

Victims 9 & 10 have not had their identity released, and I *think* LE is considering Killer 4 as their killer?:waitasec:

So, I think Killer 4 as you posted, should be unknown Victims #9 and 10.

I wonder if victims 9 and 10 are related to Manorville and possibly a third dumping site.

From the Adam Strictler Chat:

Claire:
Is it certain that none of the remains found were that of Shannan Gilbert?
Thursday April 14, 2011 12:24
AS: It's certain that the first eight are not her. She had an unusual jaw injury we know helped police exclude her quickly from the initial finds. Police and the medical examiners also have genetic material from her and her family for comparison.
Thursday April 14, 2011 12:26

AS: No time of death yet on the most recent six remains, and it's not even clear at this point if what they have found so far is nine or ten people. Police believe the four original women were killed soon after going missing, but there are still a lot of unknowns even about them.
Thursday April 14, 2011 1:06

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/live-chat-transcript-suspected-serial-killer-on-li-1.2817895

If true, this would mean there are two skulls missing.

and the 9th was possibly just a torso.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Since I seemed to have woke up this morning dialed-in with an accurate hunch that the Manorville cases are linked to the ones in Gilgo (if you noticed, I actually posted this hunch and started this thread hours before the news broke), I'm hoping to take advantage of this mysterious state of awareness and post my next gut-feeling;

I strongly feel like these murders are not the work of a serial killer but the work of an organized crime organization.

Not the Mafia... Nope, don't feel it. But yes, an organized crime organization like a gang, a sex-slave ring, a wanna-be crime family, etc... There seems to be a very large presence of Asian, Hispanic as well as Russian sex-trade rings in the NYC, Queens, Brooklyn & Long Island area. Some specialize in prostitution, some in exotic dancers, and some in hostels disguised as massage pallors or run inside night clubs. Then of course, there are many girls who declare themselves. "independents".

With the tough economy, competition surely is intense in all industries (legal or illegal). Turf wars surely must exist. So does disloyalty, stealing, cheating, scamming, etc... IMO, these murders are the result of an organized crime group taking lives as a method of enforcing their rules, punishing those who break them, and possibly eliminating the competition. I now understand "the loop" that we charted and discussed in another thread. It is clear to me that the thugs responsible for the murders of the girls dumped in Manorville came from the West (most likey Brooklyn, Queens or maybe Nassau). On route back home they crossed over to Ocean Parkway and literally threw the heads, hands and feet out the window near Gilgo. This pattern was repeated at least twice.

The presence of the two male bodies that were dumped in that same stretch as well as the discovery of a head in a pond nearby also suggests an organized crime ring dumping ground.

The taunting phone calls to one of the victim's sisters suggest to me that one of the criminals responsible for the murders is a sick puppy who gets his kicks from that kind of sadistic behavior.

BBM

I figured you'd get it eventually.

As for the rest of your post, I posted nearly the same exact thoughts on another thread. Makes complete sense to me, especially since we also have reports of dead pitbulls and headless chickens also dumped in Manorville. Manorville, imo, is a dumping ground for business liabilities.

 

[Redbird]

Could it be that the SK who killed the GB4 had inside knowledge of the Manorville murders and knew that those cases were not very seriously investigated. Could he have decided GB would therefore be a good place to carry out his fantasies?

 

[nugzter]

BBM

I figured you'd get it eventually.

As for the rest of your post, I posted nearly the same exact thoughts on another thread. Makes complete sense to me, especially since we also have reports of dead pitbulls and headless chickens also dumped in Manorville. Manorville, imo, is a dumping ground for business liabilities.

Found this--- http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/local/2011/2/22/38688/Police-bust-cockfight-ring-in-Long-Island-NY

 

[bodhi93]

Thought I would bring this post over here as well...

I just did a search for Remy's Angels and found this site (link). Seems to have a few pitbulls around... and check out the logo...

bodhi93,

Great Link! Wow! More "coincidences" in this case. It's enough to drive you crazy!!!

OK, so Remy's Angel could be linked to a Pit Bull Breeder and JT had that tattoo on her body. Also, there was a guy from West Islip that recently went missing along with his Pit Bull on July 18, 2010.

Pit Bulls are notoriously popular with drug dealers and I think we have some drug angles in this case. I wonder if we could connect the dots and come up with a suspect.

Good find, bodhi!

 

[chemcopout]

nugzter thank you for the article link you posted.
a lot of various criminals have pitbulls as pets and also have them for fighting and the birds are a cockfighting thing that people bet on.
poor pitbulls get a bad rep since they are raised wrong by bad people who treat them badly so that they can fight. it seems to be a trend brought about by dogfighters and drug dealers to own pitbulls. it's been reinforced in rap videos. so a lot of gangbangers own them, yet not all make them fight, some might have them for protection. if my wife and i are driving through any hood around here it's not uncommon to see peeps walking pitbulls down the street.

being that the manorville victims were dismembered and torsos were put in manorville or elsewhere in suitcases etc. the remainder of the body parts in jt's case were found near the other clusters of victims.

it's possible that there are 2 different killers. one dismembers his victims and goes to extremes postmortem to try to prevent identification.

the other killer buries them without any personal effects in burlap.

the males and the toddler could or could not be related to one of the killers, they could be from completely different killers altogether.


anything is possible i guess, yet a sk who actually cuts up and dismembers his victims is very different than one who disposes of them buck naked in burlap. the one who dismembers has time and a place to do this as it's not so easy to dismember someone. it's also very messy so this person has to be very comfortable with doing that task.

the gilgo girls were buried in burlap stripped of all personal effects, which is quicker than dismembering. it's possible that killer doesn't have the time to dismember them, or the location, or maybe even it's possible the thought of it disturbs him. (granted he is already seriously disturbed) yet every sk is different.

the dumping of the victims is also part of the ritual to the sk. serial killers are very ritualistic and like to stick to a routine for whatever reason. this may not always be the case, yet it tends to be in a lot of cases.

 

[chemcopout]

i would love to know who the victim from 2000 is. the odd thing is that half of each of taylor and the doe have been found in manorville, the other parts near gilgo.

what i said above aside, i tend to sit on the fence undecided on certain things.

would a sk change his mo? would he experiment with different methods of disposal? or are there 2 different sks?
things can cause an sk to change his mo, such as aging or physical health problems, loss of access to physical abilities or areas he's used in the past. even getting married.

given the highly concentrated population of the tri state area, nyc and surrounding it's very likely that there are 2 different killers. yet parts of taylor and the doe being found near the other victims is a little too uncanny.

when dealing with sk's they tend to kill and dump where they are comfortable. if the sk lived in a city he would kill his victims and leave them there.

we know that whether or not there is one or two serial killers, both are mobile in that they own vehicles and can access disposal spots for their victims. they dispose of them in areas that they are comfortable with. imho, i think the sk(s) are from long island, have lived or live in long island and are very comfy with where they put their victims.

to dump at least 8 victims lined up practicly on a stretch of highway and then to keep going back after even the first one to dump more takes a lot of confindence in that area that the sk will not be caught while dumping the victim.

areas tend to change over time, so the sk is likely a local to those areas or has lived there yet returns frequently enough to notice any changes in the areas.

as for manorville, imo i don't think a sk lives there. i think he has been familiar with manorville for whatever reason and only used it to dump.

 

[stillwatersc]

I think the Manorville ladies were killed in or near Manorville. There he disposed the torsos first to get rid of them ASAP after trying to make them difficult to identify. He would have felt more comfortable driving further with the hands and head. I think that after years passed with noone finding the whole remains on OP, he felt it was safe to leave others there. First only one, again years passed, then more. MOO

 

[stillwatersc]

would a sk change his mo?

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/profiling/s_k_myths/9.html

Method of operation (modus operandi/MO) has been another rather distressing concept in the investigation of serial killers. Perhaps when criminals commit other crimes they stay fairly consistent. For crimes you commit on a regular basis, say a couple times a week or maybe daily, it would be rather silly to reinvent your method of committing the crime each time you set out to do it again. If you found a good way to burgle a house, it makes sense to bring the same tools and repeat the previous steps.
Serial killers, however, dont kill very often. Really, they dont. Some wait years in between crimes and so when they do cross that line again they may fix something that didnt work last time or didnt feel right last time or didnt give enough of a thrill last time. A serial killer may decide to change from stabbing to strangling because last time he cut himself and he got too much blood in the car. He may decide he wants more time with the victim so he moves from an outside location to an inside location. He may decide to tie up the victim this time because the last one was hard to handle and it really ticked him off.

 

[nugzter]

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/profiling/s_k_myths/9.html

Method of operation (modus operandi/MO) has been another rather distressing concept in the investigation of serial killers. Perhaps when criminals commit other crimes they stay fairly consistent. For crimes you commit on a regular basis, say a couple times a week or maybe daily, it would be rather silly to reinvent your method of committing the crime each time you set out to do it again. If you found a good way to burgle a house, it makes sense to bring the same tools and repeat the previous steps.
Serial killers, however, dont kill very often. Really, they dont. Some wait years in between crimes and so when they do cross that line again they may fix something that didnt work last time or didnt feel right last time or didnt give enough of a thrill last time. A serial killer may decide to change from stabbing to strangling because last time he cut himself and he got too much blood in the car. He may decide he wants more time with the victim so he moves from an outside location to an inside location. He may decide to tie up the victim this time because the last one was hard to handle and it really ticked him off.

Very true. But if you look at the ritualistic aspect of the GB4, he sticks to his MO to a tee. (At least based on the info LE have released)

 

[relay]

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/profiling/s_k_myths/9.html

Method of operation (modus operandi/MO) has been another rather distressing concept in the investigation of serial killers. Perhaps when criminals commit other crimes they stay fairly consistent. For crimes you commit on a regular basis, say a couple times a week or maybe daily, it would be rather silly to reinvent your method of committing the crime each time you set out to do it again. If you found a good way to burgle a house, it makes sense to bring the same tools and repeat the previous steps.
Serial killers, however, dont kill very often. Really, they dont. Some wait years in between crimes and so when they do cross that line again they may fix something that didnt work last time or didnt feel right last time or didnt give enough of a thrill last time. A serial killer may decide to change from stabbing to strangling because last time he cut himself and he got too much blood in the car. He may decide he wants more time with the victim so he moves from an outside location to an inside location. He may decide to tie up the victim this time because the last one was hard to handle and it really ticked him off.

Thank you stillwatersc! I think that if one finds extremely similar mo's it is more likely that that one sk is involved. But, on the other hand sk's can and do change their mo's from all that I've read, and it is for a varitey of reasons...some of which pasted above.