Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2

[inthedark14]

<repsectctfully snipped by me for space>

So while the media concentrates only on the strange death of RZ...DS hires a team to look into her childs death. I cannot understand how this can be criticized.

Why is only one familys grief respected?

Why are only one family's questions considered worthy?

Why not afford both families EXACTLY the same treatment here?

Respectfully, you are right and most posters here feel the same way. Open BOTH cases and show the world ALL the answers to ALL the lingering questions on these two awful deaths.

It is painfully clear that RZ and MS are missed by their families. No one here is discounting that.

At this point both families are receiving the same treatment. Niether case has been reopened.

The Z family has NEVER named someone as a suspect, yet DS can go on the air and point
her finger at a woman she did not like and who cannot defend herself. Why, because she is dead and IMO and many others believe was murdered. She is tainting her own PR.

If DS is looking for the truth why doesn't she work with the Z family who have these records she is desperate to see and that her silent ex and father of MS withholds from her?

Instead she slanders a dead woman and a minor. The Z family has been adament for more than a year now. Why did it take her so long to speak up? Maybe before she accused their familiy members of murder she would have found the help she needed. As opposed to an eye rolling expert who based her analysis on wiki and a site dedicated to bashing RZ. Perhaps then her pleas wouldn't fall on deaf ears.

Also, who wouldn't love to hear from Dr. Bove he seems to be missing on all the media appearances.

Always MOO

 

[stmarysmead]

Respectfully, you are right and most posters here feel the same way. Open BOTH cases and show the world ALL the answers to ALL the lingering questions on these two awful deaths.

It is painfully clear that RZ and MS are missed by their families. No one here is discounting that.

At this point both families are receiving the same treatment. Niether case has been reopened.

The Z family has NEVER named someone as a suspect, yet DS can go on the air and point
her finger at a woman she did not like and who cannot defend herself. Why, because she is dead and IMO and many others believe was murdered. She is tainting her own PR.

If DS is looking for the truth why doesn't she work with the Z family who have these records she is desperate to see and that her silent ex and father of MS withholds from her?

Instead she slanders a dead woman and a minor. The Z family has been adament for more than a year now. Why did it take her so long to speak up? Maybe before she accused their familiy members of murder she would have found the help she needed. As opposed to an eye rolling expert who based her analysis on wiki and a site dedicated to bashing RZ. Perhaps then her pleas wouldn't fall on deaf ears.

Also, who wouldn't love to hear from Dr. Bove he seems to be missing on all the media appearances.

Always MOO

Personally, I think your plan to combine requests would be most expedient. But I can understand why DS does not do this...if she feels and her experts feel that the person who caused her only child's death is a member of that family. IMO that is asking for a grieving Mother to ascend into some sort of super-human state denying all her own emotions.

Even if RZ was a perfect caretaker for Max...after the horror of seeing your child injured so terribly, imagine the shock of doctors saying it looked suspicious. Didn't one doctor want to call in authorities even before Max died to investigate child abuse? What Mother would not be overcome at such a pronouncement? And then later, she hires her own experts, and whether people HERE find them credible or not...they confirm DS's worst suspicions.

These suspicions could be ALL wrong, but they do explain why DS is saying what she is and frantic to get justice for her son. I can understand that emotion and her frustration.

The Z Family feels the same frustration but under the circumstances, the respective goals of these two families are not compatible to say the least.

And in fairness, what some see as a Mother being an advocate for a dead child, others see as "slandering." It's all in the eye of the beholder.

And it is not as if plenty of fingers have not been pointed at DS and NR accusing them of complicity in RZ's death. No one side is winning any PR battle. DS has had her experts criticized and AB has had her veracity attacked as well. They cancel each other out. Many have chosen one side or the other but it is even possible that THERE are no villians here...only tragedy.

Sadly, I suspect we will not see either case reopened.

 

[inthedark14]

Personally, I think your plan to combine requests would be most expedient. But I can understand why DS does not do this...if she feels and her experts feel that the person who caused her only child's death is a member of that family. IMO that is asking for a grieving Mother to ascend into some sort of super-human state denying all her own emotions.

Even if RZ was a perfect caretaker for Max...after the horror of seeing your child injured so terribly, imagine the shock of doctors saying it looked suspicious. Didn't one doctor want to call in authorities even before Max died to investigate child abuse? What Mother would not be overcome at such a pronouncement? And then later, she hires her own experts, and whether people HERE find them credible or not...they confirm DS's worst suspicions.

These suspicions could be ALL wrong, but they do explain why DS is saying what she is and frantic to get justice for her son. I can understand that emotion and her frustration.

The Z Family feels the same frustration but under the circumstances, the respective goals of these two families are not compatible to say the least.

And in fairness, what some see as a Mother being an advocate for a dead child, others see as "slandering." It's all in the eye of the beholder.

And it is not as if plenty of fingers have not been pointed at DS and NR accusing them of complicity in RZ's death. No one side is winning any PR battle. DS has had her experts criticized and AB has had her veracity attacked as well. They cancel each other out. Many have chosen one side or the other but it is even possible that THERE are no villians here...only tragedy.

Sadly, I suspect we will not see either case reopened.

I fear you are right SMD, and that would be a HUGE travesty of justice. You are right that as a mother DS has every right to advocate for her son. I believe that MZ said something similar. "If Max hadn't been hurt, Becky would be alive" does that family not have the EXACTLY the same right to advocate for their daughter and sister?

Whether the PR battle is fought with scrubbed articles, deleted and nasty posts...it's all very irrelevant isn't it? DS thinks MS was murdered, the Z family thinks that RZ was murdered.

As for it being cancelled out, absolutely not....if you can show me somewhere that the Z family has directly accused someone of murdering RZ I would be much obliged. There are countless RECENT MSM references to DS saying that RZ was directly responsible for MS's death. It is an entirely different scenario. One family, grieving, wanting answers for their loved one's death. Another family, grieving, accusing a dead woman of hurting their loved one. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Again, why didn't DS state from the beginning that she was unconvinced? Why doesn't she publicly call JS out for the information she believes he has. She's already called out everyone else publicly.

It hurts my heart to see RZ's sister having to go back on that show to defend her deceased sister, more than a year later. Why is DS doing this now? No one discounts her loss, it's painful to look at pictures of her and MS, knowing that gorgeous child is no longer here. We all feel her pain, but she is going about this in a way that is inflammatory and making herself look ridiculous.

The whole point of this site is for people to speculate, and they do. No one here states that what they are saying is fact, it is an opinion based on the information available. And, as we all know, there is not nearly enough information made public in this case. :banghead:

Always, MOO

 

[freespeech]

Respectfully, you are right and most posters here feel the same way. Open BOTH cases and show the world ALL the answers to ALL the lingering questions on these two awful deaths.

It is painfully clear that RZ and MS are missed by their families. No one here is discounting that.

At this point both families are receiving the same treatment. Niether case has been reopened.

The Z family has NEVER named someone as a suspect, yet DS can go on the air and point
her finger at a woman she did not like and who cannot defend herself. Why, because she is dead and IMO and many others believe was murdered. She is tainting her own PR.

If DS is looking for the truth why doesn't she work with the Z family who have these records she is desperate to see and that her silent ex and father of MS withholds from her?

Instead she slanders a dead woman and a minor. The Z family has been adament for more than a year now. Why did it take her so long to speak up? Maybe before she accused their familiy members of murder she would have found the help she needed. As opposed to an eye rolling expert who based her analysis on wiki and a site dedicated to bashing RZ. Perhaps then her pleas wouldn't fall on deaf ears.

Also, who wouldn't love to hear from Dr. Bove he seems to be missing on all the media appearances.

Always MOO

Inthedark, thank you so very much for your response to this issue. I agree with every thing you wrote and am grateful that your response was thorough and articulate.

 

[stmarysmead]

I do not believe it is "impossible" for anyone to believe DS to be guilty of murder. I said that in MY Opinion , it makes no sense that she would redirect so much attention to the case, if she had smugly had her "justice." That is how I see it. Obviously, it's not IMPOSSIBLE for others to feel differently. Most posters on this forum see it differently. However we do not KNOW who is right or wrong, and since the official position of WS is that both Families are "victims", there is merit in having BOTH viewpoints represented.

If it "appears" that I sympathize only with one side, let me restate that I have empathy for both families. But please re-read this thread. The posts adding some balance to the discussion by supporting DS viewpoint are FAR in the minority. Surely, there is no objection to pointing out that not everything slants against her or proves she is only pursuing her quest for answers to thwart the other family, or has to bribe with candy to get a hug from her child. I think ot is all about MAX to DS.

I do not read other forums, but I certainly understand your angst if posters who support the RZ family are attacked for their opinions. I would think that would make posters MORE tolerant of dissenting opinions HERE...where both families are declared VICTIMS. Declaring my questions to be unwelcome, "out of touch with reality" and "false"...are not showing the very respect for dissenting opinions that is lacking on other Boards.

 

[Salem]

I am reading a lot of posts that have nothing, nothing, to do with the search warrants. This is NOT a general discussion thread.

Please stay on topic, here. If you have something to say that does not relate to the search warrants - please post it in the appropriate thread.

Salem

 

[Salem]

I just removed several posts and I'm going to lock this thread if everyone does not get back on track here. THIS is about the search warrants and MAX's death - NOT ABOUT RZ OR DS.

Get it back on tract here or move away from the thread.

Salem

 

[freespeech]

That is one interpretation.

But there is an alternative. This is a woman who lost her only child and will probably never have another. In life, there cannot be IMO a greater tragedy. It must be a tremendous struggle just to get by, day to day.

I'm sure RZ's Mother feels this same excruicating pain. But there is a helplessness about a small child that brings out a sense of maternal watchfulness. Our adult children choose their lives, the places they live and WITH WHOM they live. A six year old in a divorced family is essentially a pawn. I have a child who is a single parent of an only child. And she does worry, rightfully or not, about girlfriends and friends...and the quality of care they might give her Little One. As this case proves, even if this was an accident, tragedies happen in a second.

Add to this that after the fatal fall of her Little Boy, one medical professional raised terrible suspicions of murder. Now added to the grief is this awful idea that someone deliberately hurt a helpless child.

What Mother would just let that go...just to be polite and not draw attention from RZ's death? As if her grief is not as worthy, her questions not as important. On BOTH cases , both families think the police messed up. If that's possible in one case, it certainly is in BOTH.

So while the media concentrates only on the strange death of RZ...DS hires a team to look into her childs death. I cannot understand how this can be criticized.

Why is only one familys grief respected?

Why are only one family's questions considered worthy?

Why not afford both families EXACTLY the same treatment here?

Stmarysmead, could you please give more detail to support your questioning that only one family's grief and questions are respected? Please show how both families concerns have not been addressed by this forum?

 

[stmarysmead]

I just removed several posts and I'm going to lock this thread if everyone does not get back on track here. THIS is about the search warrants and MAX's death - NOT ABOUT RZ OR DS.

Get it back on tract here or move away from the thread.

Salem

I do not want to ignore your request , Free Speech...but we have been asked to stay on the topic of the search warrants.

 

[bourne]

I just removed several posts and I'm going to lock this thread if everyone does not get back on track here. THIS is about the search warrants and MAX's death - NOT ABOUT RZ OR DS.

Get it back on tract here or move away from the thread.

Salem

Thank you for getting us back on track But why is the initiating poster's posts about RZ vs. DS not also removed along with our replies to her accusatory questions?

 

[Peaceful]

A heartwarming anecdote but unfortunately, does not advance one theory of these deaths over another. Maybe RZ and Maxie adored each other...as Patsy Ramsey adored Jon Benet. That does not mean anything in regard to Max's manner of death. Though it might add fuel to the reason for suicide.

We've heard Casey Anthony described in court as a wonderful loving Mother as well.

There is just too much unknown here...or at least unknown by sleuthers.

I also believe that DS would certainly never press to have Max's case reopened if she was somehow responsible for RZ's death. Why do it? The person she believed responsible for her child's death would have paid the ultimate penalty and better yet, DS would have gotten away with it. DS could just sit back and savor her revenge with her grief. Why get the publicity going, the media poking around, the police looking once again?

Personally, I wish BOTH cases would be reviewed. Because, right now, neither family has peace.

I agree both cases need to be reopened, no matter what. I don't know who killed Rebecca but if it was Dina, I think there are still a number of reasons she WOULD do exactly as see is doing in trying to have Max's case reopened. If I was responsible, even in part, to the murder of someone I thought assaulted and caused the death of my child, I would still want people to know my son was brutally murdered. It would help to feel vindicated I would think. Also it supports her alibi that Rebecca killed herself. If it was proved Rebecca did that to Max people wouldn't care as much she was murdered. Public opinion would dwindle. In my opinion, if Dina was involved in Rebecca's murder there is also a chance that she was a pawn and lead to believe an assault scenario occurred. The lack of communication between JS and Rebecca and the fact he didn't go home, didn't hardly call and didn't seem the least bit surprised at her suicide are all very questionable things to me. There is just so much we don't know.

 

[stmarysmead]

Please do not characterize my questions as "accusatory" because they support another way of looking at these issues more favorable to a grieving Mother....also delared a "victim" on this Board. Thanks to the Mods for not making this Board One sided...and respecting, as YOU wish to be respected, the idea that other view points are tolerated in this tragic but very confusing case.

 

[bourne]

Please do not characterize my questions as "accusatory" because they support another way of looking at these issues more favorable to a grieving Mother....also delared a "victim" on this Board. Thanks to the Mods for not making this Board One sided...and respecting, as YOU wish to be respected, the idea that other view points are tolerated in this tragic but very confusing case.

I'm not going to argue this with you. That's how I interpreted your questions. They sounded accusatory to me because they were one-sided and you sounded angry. No need to BOLD the word YOU if you're not angry or accusatory.

 

[stmarysmead]

I'm not going to argue this with you. That's how I interpreted your questions. They sounded accusatory to me because they were one-sided and you sounded angry. No need to BOLD the word YOU if you're not angry or accusatory.

Think we are off track again. No need to argue. No anger here. Just great empathy for DS which is a minority perspective on this forum...but not as defined by WS guidelines.

 

[stmarysmead]

I cannotpresume to know....nor can anyone else what actually happened in either of these cases. Two families are devastated...that is indisputable.

But divorced parents have so little control over the caregivers their EX chooses. Think of little Hayley Cummings. These children are at the mercy of the adults choices.

Maybe JS chose his latest girlfriend with his childrens best interest in mind. Maybe he chose what HE wanted first and foremost. But we know from BOTH sides, that there were troubles between Rz and the older kids.

DS had a good relationship with those older children. iF you go to her charitable website, she WANTED Maxie to be close to them and he was.

When Maxie was gravely injured, all of DS's worst fears about RZ seemed to come true. Stealing such a large amount of jewelry may just have been one moment of RZ losing control..But, in fairness, that is a legitamite concern about a caregiver. Beyond ethics and honesty, there is a question of impulse control. I'm sorry if this offends some posters. but this is PART of the history of RZ. Her death does not mean we have to rewrite history to make her perfect. as painful as it is for her family, we all create our own history, good and bad.

It also does not mean she was a "bad" person. But it does validate a loving Mothers concern for her only child.

DS has to own her history as well, of course.

RZ's sister is the kind of sibling every one of us would wish to have. I think her questions are valid and I hope the case is reopened to deal with thise questions. But as we look at the information in Max's case, can't we have equal empathy for DS? Losing a sister is devastating but Losing a child is a monstrous grief. A child is one 's future, one's legacy.When you see your child, you see again every family member you have loved and lost. He is the rebirth, the continuation, the healing. There might be your Mothers eyes, your Fathers smile. He is the return in pieces...of all we lose beforehand.

DS has lost all this. I feel for her deeply. I do not have ANY negativity for Rz's family...but I hurt for the vitriol posted against this grieving Mother.

 

[Tink56]

I am very confused about the "multiple planes of injury" to which Dr. Melnick refers. Looking at the initial emergency report, the EMT's/Medics DID NOT note any acute injuries on the chest, back/extremeties, abdomen, pelvis, extremeties, etc. Maybe the operative word here is acute.

(Here's a link to the PDF that notes no CPR was started. But, RZ may not have been able to clear the airways to start conventional CPR. BTW, when did hands only CPR come into vogue?)

http://www.maxshacknai.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/CFD_Report.pdf

However, these initial observations, since the facial bruising, etc. is mentioned cause me to wonder if some of the injuries that are shown in the pictures of Max in ICU might not be a result of the emergency care.

Certainly I don't know have medical training, but the lack of any notations about abrasions, etc., causes me to wonder when the injuries occurred.

Hope this is the correct thread for this question/query.

 

[stmarysmead]

I am very confused about the "multiple planes of injury" to which Dr. Melnick refers. Looking at the initial emergency report, the EMT's/Medics DID NOT note any acute injuries on the chest, back/extremeties, abdomen, pelvis, extremeties, etc. Maybe the operative word here is acute.

(Here's a link to the PDF that notes no CPR was started. But, RZ may not have been able to clear the airways to start conventional CPR. BTW, when did hands only CPR come into vogue?)

http://www.maxshacknai.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/CFD_Report.pdf

However, these initial observations, since the facial bruising, etc. is mentioned cause me to wonder if some of the injuries that are shown in the pictures of Max in ICU might not be a result of the emergency care.

Certainly I don't know have medical training, but the lack of any notations about abrasions, etc., causes me to wonder when the injuries occurred.

Hope this is the correct thread for this question/query.

Good points. But if the hospital made a report of possible abuse in this case, they certainly would have taken in account any injuries that were the result of emergency care. Hospitals are very lawsuit-saavy and self protective. I believe they are careful in covering for own financial interest.

 

[freespeech]

Good points. But if the hospital made a report of possible abuse in this case, they certainly would have taken in account any injuries that were the result of emergency care. Hospitals are very lawsuit-saavy and self protective. I believe they are careful in covering for own financial interest.

I wonder why Jonah did not ask more questions about Max's accident? The emergency report stated that Max did not receive CPR. Did they get that information from Rebecca? The report doesn't note who was on the scene when they arrived. It just stated that no CRP was done.

I wonder how Jonah, Dina and Nina felt about that? What did the police do? I wonder if Anne Bremner has additional documentation that clarifies whether or not Rebecca did CPR? I would guess that Rebecca's sister knows for sure. However, I do not think that she would be safe in speaking with either Dina or Jonah at this point.

So I guess this is just another oversight that proves what a lousy job the police did in this case. I am surprised that they would dare to do such a lousy job knowing that Jonah is a lawyer and a wealthy drug mogul.

 

[stmarysmead]

JS is the "man in the middle" here, but he seems to have little emotional investment in either case. What was his feeling when the allegation of abuse to his son was made, as the boy lay dying? Did he have no questions of RZ?

What about when RZ was found hanging in the courtyard? No questions then either?

JS is an enigma who seems oddly detached IMO.

 

[Wendy101]

I wonder why Jonah did not ask more questions about Max's accident? The emergency report stated that Max did not receive CPR. Did they get that information from Rebecca? The report doesn't note who was on the scene when they arrived. It just stated that no CRP was done.

I wonder how Jonah, Dina and Nina felt about that? What did the police do? I wonder if Anne Bremner has additional documentation that clarifies whether or not Rebecca did CPR? I would guess that Rebecca's sister knows for sure. However, I do not think that she would be safe in speaking with either Dina or Jonah at this point.

So I guess this is just another oversight that proves what a lousy job the police did in this case. I am surprised that they would dare to do such a lousy job knowing that Jonah is a lawyer and a wealthy drug mogul.

BBM: I think this is the question Dina should really concentrate on finding out an answer to!