Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2

[SunnieRN]

Doubt, thank you so much for this thoughtful post! I hope you are on your way to a healthy recovery and are doing ok. Hugs and prayers and welcome back!!

Honestly however, I do not think the doctor should feel at all guilty for reporting any suspicions he had. What he did after reporting to cps, may be a reason to feel guilty however. This is why the guidelines are in place not to talk about suspicions to others involved, beyond asking the medical questions necessary to treat the patient.

 

[Morag]

Doubt, thank you so much for this thoughtful post! I hope you are on your way to a healthy recovery and are doing ok. Hugs and prayers and welcome back!!

Honestly however, I do not think the doctor should feel at all guilty for reporting any suspicions he had. What he did after reporting to cps, may be a reason to feel guilty however. This is why the guidelines are in place not to talk about suspicions to others involved, beyond asking the medical questions necessary to treat the patient.

BBM

At least the doc, unlike (apparently) LE, was not intimidated by the fact that Max came from a wealthy prominent household.

 

[MyBelle]

I am so out of the loop on this case,but want to inject,spinal cord injury would almost be a given in a fall like that. He would have checked for it and checked again and again. JMO

ITA. In fact, iirc, the SW that mentions the Doctor's contact with CPS also mentions the possibility of C5 injury.

JMO

 

[time]

BBM

At least the doc, unlike (apparently) LE, was not intimidated by the fact that Max came from a wealthy prominent household.

Or he k new neither of the parents were home when it happened.

 

[time]

Doubt, thank you so much for this thoughtful post! I hope you are on your way to a healthy recovery and are doing ok. Hugs and prayers and welcome back!!

Honestly however, I do not think the doctor should feel at all guilty for reporting any suspicions he had. What he did after reporting to cps, may be a reason to feel guilty however. This is why the guidelines are in place not to talk about suspicions to others involved, beyond asking the medical questions necessary to treat the patient.

I soooooo respect your opinions/judgments. However, I still think he perhaps jumped the gun since every basic avenue was not pursued to accurately diagnose the COD. If in the report he stated that, as I think he should have, then I would feel different. I agree, he should not have told Dina and Jonah about any suspicions although if he told them suffocation, I think Dina would have come to the same conclusion regardless. It just seems too early - is there a required timeframe for when a child comes in till time you have to report to cps any suspicions?

 

[Morag]

Or he k new neither of the parents were home when it happened.

Yes, that did occur to me. But as we know, there is still some doubt about several Shacknai timelines for that day, and I would imagine that a doctor would not necessarily assume that everything he was told was 'gospel'. I'll bet he's dealt with a lot of parents in his career at Rady, not all of whom told him the truth initially.

 

[MyBelle]

In the article Bremner says she and the family met with investigators for more than three hours, and says investigators told her that he had been planking when he fell. Why hasn't that been reported anywhere else? Why isn't that in the police reports?

Have we seen all the police reports? I think investigators told Bremner what RZ told them. It doesn't mean it is true and could be why the Dr. at Rady called in CPS. The LE illustration doesn't mention planking and shows the child being propelled over the railing at enough velocity to strike the chandelier. A detective's name was listed in RZ's phone records recently released so maybe prior to her death, RZ knew LE had questions.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I soooooo respect your opinions/judgments. However, I still think he perhaps jumped the gun since every basic avenue was not pursued to accurately diagnose the COD. If in the report he stated that, as I think he should have, then I would feel different. I agree, he should not have told Dina and Jonah about any suspicions although if he told them suffocation, I think Dina would have come to the same conclusion regardless. It just seems too early - is there a required timeframe for when a child comes in till time you have to report to cps any suspicions?

bbm. I strongly disagree with your opinion. The child's own parents had every right to discuss with doctors and know every aspect of their son's condition. That said, there has been no information released publicly about what doctors discussed with the parents or when it was discussed.

JMO

 

[SunnieRN]

I soooooo respect your opinions/judgments. However, I still think he perhaps jumped the gun since every basic avenue was not pursued to accurately diagnose the COD. If in the report he stated that, as I think he should have, then I would feel different. I agree, he should not have told Dina and Jonah about any suspicions although if he told them suffocation, I think Dina would have come to the same conclusion regardless. It just seems too early - is there a required timeframe for when a child comes in till time you have to report to cps any suspicions?

Time, suspected child abuse is supposed to be reported immediately. The doctor did nothing wrong in this instance, to that point, in my honest opinion.

What led to the idea of suffocation, the calling of cps, is most likely a doctor being conscientious and not taking any chances. My questions lie, with what transpired and what was, or if his suspicions were discussed with the parents or other family members. This could have been possible and would have been incorrect, as cps tells you NOT to discuss the possibility with anyone involved.

I have personal experience in a cps case. I was not allowed to question the parent about anything, or tell her that I didn't believe the story, or tell her that I thought someone was responsible for the childs injury. I had to get the parent back to the clinic the next day, where cps arrested her, took custody of the 4 children, went to the home and seized the remaining 3 children and arrested the boyfriend.

Imho, reporting questionable situations is mandated and must be immediate. The discussion of the case with anyone involved, or suspicions is not the proper way to proceed. Questions about events, yes, but not giving out premature information or accusations.

 

[KarenM]

moving on to the neighbor and the scream. i don't believe for a second all of those who claim they would immediately call 911, based on a lone holler which seemed to emanate from the direction of a home owned by a man more wealthy and powerful and intimidating than donald trump himself......and oh, by the way, also one that happens to be mere steps from the beach, smack in the middle of tourist season. give me a break. i applaud the neighbor for coming forward at all as doing so took far more courage than some here seem willing to recognize. one can only hope that should there be other "witnesses" in coronado, weighing in their own minds whether it's worth it to take their information to LE, they do not read the posts here by folks who would view them merely as another person whose motives are open for the shredding.

Your comment on the neighbor's not calling 911 absolutely makes sense.

After a murder occurs, police routinely interview the victim's neighbors and ask them whether they have seen or heard anything unusual.

If anyone who has truly heard or seen anthing must have called 911 and those who have not called 911 are not credible, why will police even do the interviews after the murder occurs? That's because very often, people don't call 911 after seeing or hearing unusual things. The reasons can be various. Maybe they doubted their ears/eyes. Maybe they did't want to get involved. Maybe they were not able to connect what they saw/heard with a true crime earlier. Maybe they thought what they heard was from TV/teenagers. The reasons can be countless.

I am not saying the witness in RZ's case is absolutely credible. But to discredit him/her, it takes more than the fact that he/she did not call 911 on 7/12.

 

[time]

Time, suspected child abuse is supposed to be reported immediately. The doctor did nothing wrong in this instance, to that point, in my honest opinion.

What led to the idea of suffocation, the calling of cps, is most likely a doctor being conscientious and not taking any chances. My questions lie, with what transpired and what was, or if his suspicions were discussed with the parents or other family members. This could have been possible and would have been incorrect, as cps tells you NOT to discuss the possibility with anyone involved.

I have personal experience in a cps case. I was not allowed to question the parent about anything, or tell her that I didn't believe the story, or tell her that I thought someone was responsible for the childs injury. I had to get the parent back to the clinic the next day, where cps arrested her, took custody of the 4 children, went to the home and seized the remaining 3 children and arrested the boyfriend.

Imho, reporting questionable situations is mandated and must be immediate. The discussion of the case with anyone involved, or suspicions is not the proper way to proceed. Questions about events, yes, but not giving out premature information or accusations.

Ok, I understand. My mind is seeing a medical decision making chart for diagnosis and at least one possible conclusion that was not explored. I take it doctors were not able to explore that (an MRI or whatever) at that time. Therefore, to me, any report should have been with a huge caveat if it had to be made before an MRI could be performed (or an autopsy - date would probably be undetermined though). I understand reporting these things immediately because a child might be in danger from the perpetrator, but that hardly seems the case here. Maybe there is no allowance for different contexts and I am too non-rule oriented!

 

[SunnieRN]

Ok, I understand. My mind is seeing a medical decision making chart for diagnosis and at least one possible conclusion that was not explored. I take it doctors were not able to explore that (an MRI or whatever) at that time. Therefore, to me, any report should have been with a huge caveat if it had to be made before an MRI could be performed (or an autopsy - date would probably be undetermined though). I understand reporting these things immediately because a child might be in danger from the perpetrator, but that hardly seems the case here. Maybe there is no allowance for different contexts and I am too non-rule oriented!

The system only works (and then does not always work, as people who post on this board have seen), with early intervention.

I do not have a choice as to whether, or if, or when to report. The law tells a mandated reporter that if they have ANY suspicion of child abuse, that this must be reported immediately. If I fail to do so, I can be prosecuted, lose my license and serve jail time myself.

There is also APS for situations with adults. Same guidelines.

Once this is reported, it is out of the medical persons hands. CPS steps in and determines if there is enough cause to investigate. If the child is in any danger, the child will be removed from the situation. The reason a mandated reporter is told to not discuss anything with the person involved, is due to the fact that it may tip that person off to the fact that there are suspicions and that an investigation may occur.

Anyway. Sorry this was so long, it is a passion of mine. We all need to do out part to protect children. They are defenseless and can not protect themselves.

 

[gone2themoon2011]

If I could put money on it, my guess would be Max was planking. There’s a good possibility that on the second floor in the hallway overlooking the foyer area is a 12" wide capped ledge, maybe 5ft in length or so. If one wanted to video a person planking, that would be an ideal spot for a kid, because of the risk, and because it’s a solid place to lay down flat. Max was allegedly found at the bottom of the stairs, with his head facing the front door entrance, the exact spot he’d likely land if he had fallen over. He may have hit the chandelier on the way down and instinctively grabbed onto it as it came loose from the ceiling.

I’m almost positive I read the actual police transcript for that particular 911 call that day and remember the report saying a young girl and a woman (presumably Rebecca and her sister) were driven to the hospital after Max was taken by ambulance. I’m not 100% positive, but pretty sure I read that the girl had told the police she was videotaping and Max was planking.

It’s very possible that’s what happened. But in order for LE to protect the young 13 yr old minor from publicity, the media hype and all the hoopla, they probably had to cover it up by dreaming up a scenario and drafting a sketch to show to the public how they thought Max could have sustained his injuries. That’s probably the reason we heard so many stories that never made sense about “falling down the stairs”.

And come to think of it, there’s been no mention of Rebecca’s young sister. Just my opinion.

 

[SunnieRN]

If I could put money on it, my guess would be Max was planking. There’s a good possibility that on the second floor in the hallway overlooking the foyer area is a 12" wide capped ledge, maybe 5ft in length or so. If one wanted to video a person planking, that would be an ideal spot for a kid, because of the risk, and because it’s a solid place to lay down flat. Max was allegedly found at the bottom of the stairs, with his head facing the front door entrance, the exact spot he’d likely land if he had fallen over. He may have hit the chandelier on the way down and instinctively grabbed onto it as it came loose from the ceiling.

I’m almost positive I read the actual police transcript for that particular 911 call that day and remember the report saying a young girl and a woman (presumably Rebecca and her sister) were driven to the hospital after Max was taken by ambulance. I’m not 100% positive, but pretty sure I read that the girl had told the police she was videotaping and Max was planking.

It’s very possible that’s what happened. But in order for LE to protect the young 13 yr old minor from publicity, the media hype and all the hoopla, they probably had to cover it up by dreaming up a scenario and drafting a sketch to show to the public how they thought Max could have sustained his injuries. That’s probably the reason we heard so many stories that never made sense about “falling down the stairs”.

And come to think of it, there’s been no mention of Rebecca’s young sister. Just my opinion.

:welcome: to websleuths, There have been media reports about the 911 calls, but there have been no releases of the calls or the conversations entailed.

There have been a lot of mentioning of Rebecca's little sister, XZ also.

If you could link to any articles that state the nature and content of the 911 call, it would be appreciated, as there has not been anything indicating that Max was planking or that XZ video taped it.

 

[stilettos]

The system only works (and then does not always work, as people who post on this board have seen), with early intervention.

I do not have a choice as to whether, or if, or when to report. The law tells a mandated reporter that if they have ANY suspicion of child abuse, that this must be reported immediately. If I fail to do so, I can be prosecuted, lose my license and serve jail time myself.

There is also APS for situations with adults. Same guidelines.

Once this is reported, it is out of the medical persons hands. CPS steps in and determines if there is enough cause to investigate. If the child is in any danger, the child will be removed from the situation. The reason a mandated reporter is told to not discuss anything with the person involved, is due to the fact that it may tip that person off to the fact that there are suspicions and that an investigation may occur.

Anyway. Sorry this was so long, it is a passion of mine. We all need to do out part to protect children. They are defenseless and can not protect themselves.

As a former Foster child, former Foster parent and former mandated reporter...I have reported suspected child abuse and will continue to...I have been cautioned not to speak about the suspicions to any family member by DFCS and CPS in these cases. Just my experience. MOO. Protecting the children with Sunnie!

 

[gone2themoon2011]

:welcome: to websleuths, There have been media reports about the 911 calls, but there have been no releases of the calls or the conversations entailed.

There have been a lot of mentioning of Rebecca's little sister, XZ also.

If you could link to any articles that state the nature and content of the 911 call, it would be appreciated, as there has not been anything indicating that Max was planking or that XZ video taped it.

I'll definitely post it if I do find it. It wasn't the actual 911 call I got this information from, but, what I believe, was the police report (the notes officers themselves write up after responding to a call). I'll put more effort into seeing what I can find today and see what I can pull out of the archives. Don't know why I didn't keep a copy (?)

 

[jjenny]

I'll definitely post it if I do find it. It wasn't the actual 911 call I got this information from, but, what I believe, was the police report (the notes officers themselves write up after responding to a call). I'll put more effort into seeing what I can find today and see what I can pull out of the archives. Don't know why I didn't keep a copy (?)

The 911 calls were not released. Press will have to go to court to get them released.

 

[Callie]

Perhaps, because his body wasn't exactly prone when he landed? He landed face first, his body sloping upward, but he was nearly vertical, making the point of impact head first on the high hairline are of his forehead where the skull fracture is. After the upper forehead hit, his head would have rolled backward as the shoulders, torso and the rest of his body came down. That would have been a lot of backward force on his head causing the whiplash like injury. all his body weight would have snapped his head backward.

Hi greenpalm, Maybe I'm dumb, but I'm not getting it. His feet were pointed toward the back wall. He falls forward face first with the point of impact on high forehead, then the rest of him lands with his body and face coming in complete contact with the floor. So where is the head snap? He'd have to have flipped over with his feet towards the front door or whatever is opposite from the alcove wall. Ah heck, even then I still can't see it.

 

[Callie]

Great find!
Reading that post gave me the chills....

Please, Brit, where is this post?

 

[Brit]

Please, Brit, where is this post?

Here is the link
http://www.forbes.com/sites/shenegotiates/2011/09/25/money-mystery-murder-in-spreckels-mansion-case/

When you go on the article, scroll down to comments and keep scrolling till you get to writeaboutit comment. Very very interesting.