CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

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How is frontal lividity consistent with Jay Wild's version of events? What does Asia McClain have to gain by lying?

It's not a matter of listening to Adnan Syed, it's a matter of correctly interpreting the evidence.

Okay, lividity, if accurate, only reveals that she could have been placed elsewhere before being buried. IOW, in the trunk face down or in the bushes face down. Jay most likely wasn't there during the murder or didn't want to tell the story that put him there. I really don't care about Jay's whole story. He knew where the car was and knew she was murdered. He knew enough to implicate Adnan.

Asia? You tell me? Is it normal for some acquaintance to be sending so many letters and pining for his attention?? Not hardly. A morbid fascination at best. She has been struck down so many times in post-trial testimony. Remember, Adnan received those letters one week after his arrest, but no one contacted her? He had access to a phone and her number was in them. Kinda funny that he neglected to even call her, forget his attorney disregarding it.

How is any of this normal to you? If you were put in jail and received letters providing an alibi you'd call them, unless you were guilty and knew they were pointless.

So, discount Adnan's "voice" of ambiguity. Look at the evidence and tell me how it points away from him, because that's all that's left. He's in prison and you now have to prove a case without an opposing series of facts. I'm actually astonished that anyone would think he is innocent. Not trying to be rude either. I'm enjoying the discussion, but I'm truly shocked that this is even a case for dispute. Go online and you'll see dozens of others who believed in his innocence only to come to terms with his guilt. It's not about throwing in the towel either, it's about things we haven't seen. So-called evidence and noise Rabia has put into public record to sway opinion and manipulate people based on her personal bias.
 
The lividity report is part of state's record. Jay Wilds has three different versions of what happened on Jan 13 1999, and none match the version you suggest. He places Hae in her trunk right after being killed. And she is only taken from that trunk (in all three versions of his story) when "buried". There is no way she could have attained full frontal lividity under those circumstances.


http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...ostsecond-postthird-postive-made-two-cla.html
 
Have you read the pathology report? I have and it essentially says that it's anterior, except for locations of pressure (normal). It doesn't reveal lividity in the legs, arms, face, or specific locations, just that it's anterior. Hae could have easily been placed in a trunk whereby her torso was prone. I've seen a lot of crime scene photos and the placement of limbs is often strange. Nothing to suggest that her legs and arms weren't in some strange anatomical position (blood pools is key here). So, lividity under usual conditions becomes developed in 10 hours. Livor mortis becomes visible around 3-4 hours. So again, if she was murdered just after 2 pm and kept in a trunk mostly prone, but buried in the dirt around 12 am, that explains how the pattern of anterior lividity is fixed.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Jay wasn't telling the entire truth, period. He was attempting to save face and distance himself from the crime as much as possible; however, he was cornered into telling them certain details. His fear of the legal system has kept him from being honest all along. The minutia of his story is irrelevant. He knew where the car was and enough to know Adnan had killed her.

I ask again, how did Jay know where she was buried and where the car was? Why wasn't Adnan curious as to where she was during the "missing" phase? He attends a wedding and when asked about Hae only remarks that they broke up. No mention of her missing?! Why did Sharon Watts (school nurse) report that Adnan was crying and acting upset, only to see him laughing with friends later on?

Remove Jay and his story from the equation. Why were so many others telling of Adnan's guilt and suspicious stories? How did so much light cast upon Adnan? Moreover, why do you think he's innocent?

As they say, the truth is stranger than fiction. The lividity, the stories, the circumstances, et cetra. For those that want an airtight alibi complete with film of said murder, it just isn't there.
 
I've always thought that jay viewed, Hae and Adnan, as a threat to his and Stephanie's relationship.
 
Hae Min Lee's body was found prior to Jay Wilds and Adan Syed even being spoken to. That's what began the investigation.

It's not a pathology report, it's called an autopsy--and here it is:

https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/autopsy-report.pdf

The "anterior surface of a body" includes the limbs. No distinction between torso and limbs is made.

All the rest of what you post is pure conjecture and impossible to address. I like substantiated facts.

PS, I've never stated that I thought Adnan was innocent, only that questions in the case warrant a new trial. Big difference.


Have you read the pathology report? I have and it essentially says that it's anterior, except for locations of pressure (normal). It doesn't reveal lividity in the legs, arms, face, or specific locations, just that it's anterior. Hae could have easily been placed in a trunk whereby her torso was prone. I've seen a lot of crime scene photos and the placement of limbs is often strange. Nothing to suggest that her legs and arms weren't in some strange anatomical position (blood pools is key here). So, lividity under usual conditions becomes developed in 10 hours. Livor mortis becomes visible around 3-4 hours. So again, if she was murdered just after 2 pm and kept in a trunk mostly prone, but buried in the dirt around 12 am, that explains how the pattern of anterior lividity is fixed.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Jay wasn't telling the entire truth, period. He was attempting to save face and distance himself from the crime as much as possible; however, he was cornered into telling them certain details. His fear of the legal system has kept him from being honest all along. The minutia of his story is irrelevant. He knew where the car was and enough to know Adnan had killed her.

I ask again, how did Jay know where she was buried and where the car was? Why wasn't Adnan curious as to where she was during the "missing" phase? He attends a wedding and when asked about Hae only remarks that they broke up. No mention of her missing?! Why did Sharon Watts (school nurse) report that Adnan was crying and acting upset, only to see him laughing with friends later on?

Remove Jay and his story from the equation. Why were so many others telling of Adnan's guilt and suspicious stories? How did so much light cast upon Adnan? Moreover, why do you think he's innocent?

As they say, the truth is stranger than fiction. The lividity, the stories, the circumstances, et cetra. For those that want an airtight alibi complete with film of said murder, it just isn't there.
 
And now I'll back out. You're clearly wanting to argue and disregard all the reports from other witnesses, unless they work in your favor. You want to hinge your theory on Jay, despite his stories being so varied. You want to believe Asia as well. Suspend all other stories for an individual you have no personal relation with just to further a confirmation bias.

And yes, that is the "autopsy" report I was referring to <rolleyes>. I wasn't going to be snide, but you aren't open to opinion or frank discussion.

I must say, if I'm ever charged in a crime, I hope you're in the jury pool! lol
 
Some notes on the other verifiable parts of the vision:

The car had a cloth interior (like the fake crushed velvet kind) and was gray/silver.

This photo of a similar 1998 Nissan Sentra cited by law professor Colin Miller (I don&#8217;t think there are any public photos of the interior of Hae&#8217;s actual car?) shows the interior of the car is a gray, velour-style cloth interior. Hae&#8217;s car was gray / silver.


There was junk in the back seat and on the floor, a jacket, papers receipts and an empty 7up or Mountain Dew bottle maybe?

There was a lot of junk in the backseat of Hae&#8217;s car when it was found, including &#8220;mango drink&#8221; and &#8220;apple drink - empty.&#8221; It sounds like most of the papers were in the glove compartment or in the truck but it&#8217;s tough to tell from the police documents. Hae was found wearing a &#8220;white sweater / jacket,&#8221; so the killer could have put it on her after she was killed. One of the cops testified that there was a red jacket in the trunk, even though it&#8217;s not on the police report about the trunk&#8217;s contents.


young white man in his early 20s or late teens with short dark blonde hair and piercing blue eyes

Serial said Don was 20 years old in 1999, with blond hair and blue eyes.


He may have stopped at some point and gotten some kind of cord like parachute core [cord?] or a sweatshirt tie, but I&#8217;m not sure.

Hae was strangled and her neck did have some marks on it but it&#8217;s not clear whether it&#8217;s from a cord: "The skin - at the anterior right aspect of the neck had a poorly defined elongated contusion measuring 1-1/4" x 1/ 4". Dissection of the neck revealed multiple focal hemorrhages on the superior (proximal) segments of the strap muscles involving the sternohyoid and the sternothyroid muscles."


It was cold out with no leaves on the trees

It was 35 - 57 degrees that day in Baltimore and it was January, so the trees didn&#8217;t have leaves, in all likelihood.


He got out of the car, which was facing a fence that was chain link with brown plastic or old brown wood, I&#8217;m not sure. Behind the car...were hotel rooms that were beige/ tan with dark brown door frames and window frames like a Motel 6 or EconoLodge.

Someone on Reddit found a location in the area that looks similar to this description.


He opened the trunk that was also carpeted/cloth and had a dark blue or black duffle bag in it.

A similar Nissan Sentra trunk posted on Reddit looks to be carpeted / cloth. There was a blue backpack (not duffel bag) found in it.


He may have lived there too, I&#8217;m not sure, but it was definitely his mother&#8217;s home.

Don&#8217;s mother, Anita Baird, supposedly lived in Edgewood in 1999, whereas Don&#8217;s address at the time was in Bel Air. He could have had a room at his mom&#8217;s house still, from when he was a teen.


He may have left a jacket or sweater on her? There was a red jacket too either in the car or grave.

Hae was found wearing a &#8220;white sweater / jacket.&#8221; One of the cops testified that there was a red jacket in the trunk, even though it&#8217;s not on the police report about the trunk&#8217;s contents.


It was a wooded area near a creek or small area of flowing (not stagnant) water. But there wasn&#8217;t much of it. It was frozen over. It was slightly below her and she was on a bank closer to a path or road with the water on the other side of the log. There were frozen and snowy leaves on top and she was near a rotten log that had been there at least a year, possible longer that had moss on it.

The place where Hae was found in Leakin Park was wooded and about 50 feet away from a creek bed. She was found &#8220;in a shallow depression behind a log and covered over with dirt and large rocks."


There was a used condom on the ground nearby and some other trash (I didn&#8217;t see any liquor bottles though).

There was supposedly a rope and an empty whiskey bottle found nearby. Not sure why Pam specifically mentioned liquor bottles, if she didn't see any.


saw the letters s and d or t, I&#8217;m not sure which

Don clineDinST
 
Has anyone read Adnan's friend Rabia's book Adnan's Story? It has some very interesting information that wasn't touched upon in Serial.

I have so many questions about the vision shared by "Pam." Has anyone investigated any of this? I was only able to find this Reddit thread about it but the thread has been archived, so you can't interact with it anymore.

The full vision is below:


These are my questions...wondering if anyone has looked into any of these?

- Does Hae Min Lee's mother (or other older female relative) fit this description? "[FONT=&amp]mid to late 40s, a little plump (5&#8217;2 to 5&#8217;6 and maybe 140&#8211;150)"[/FONT]
- Did Hae&#8217;s mother (or other older female relative) fly on Southwest from Chicago to Baltimore in November 2000?
- Did Hae&#8217;s mother (or other female relative) own black leather pants in November 2000?
- Did Don Clinedinst do any drugs in 1999?
- Does Don have any psychiatric disorders?
- Is / was Don's mother Christian and religious?
- Did Don&#8217;s mother have crosses and a picture of Jesus hanging in her home in 1999?
- Did Don&#8217;s mother have family photos hanging on the walls of the staircase of her home in 1999?
- Did Don&#8217;s mother&#8217;s house have dark gray or brown worn carpet in 1999 with lighter walls?
- Did Don live with his mother in 1999 in an upstairs bedroom?

This is Hae's mother in March 1999:
attachment.php


And another photo from 1999:
attachment.php


Hard to tell her height in these photos but I wouldn't describe her as "plump"...although "plump" is in the eye of the beholder and she could have gained weight before November 2000. Doesn't seem like the leather pants-wearing type but who can predict another person's fashion choices...
 

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I'm very late to Serial and to websleuth's. I binge listened to serial a month ago and am so very interested in the case. I also believe guilty or not he didn't get a fair trial. I do have concerns for Adnan and boyfriend that never called Hae after the she went missing time. Didn't have to call because they knew where she was? I still want more from Jay and I'm not sure how credible Asia is. She remembers so much but got the bad weather wrong on that day. Blizzard or not would be just as memorable as she claims that got her a stay over with boyfriend. The weather didn't add up that day! Looking for discussion,
 
Also just listened to Serial and I&#8217;m 99.999% sure he&#8217;s guilty. Here&#8217;s my theory: Adnan got dumped and put on a brave face. I did the same thing nearly two years later. You remain &#8220;friends&#8221; because you dilute your mind into thinking &#8216;oh she&#8217;ll come back when she doesn&#8217;t find anything better&#8217;. Except she did and this is where our stories separate.

My theory is that somehow he stumbled across the story of the Asian woman raped and strangled by RLM and came up with his plan. He killed Hae and used Jay to get rid of the body by threatening him with going to the cops with the drug dealing. He knew, as is pretty obvious, that Jay was as soft as can be and wouldn't flip on him. Except the cops gave Jay a sweetheart deal because they realized that Adnan was, and is still to this day, manipulative sociopath that will use anyone and anything he can to get himself out of trouble.

There's no way he didn&#8217;t do it. No one else, including RLM, had the means, motive and opportunity to commit the crime. Not in that time frame
 
I think in any case questions can be raised that can make you doubt the outcome of a trial.
 
Also just listened to Serial and I’m 99.999% sure he’s guilty. Here’s my theory: Adnan got dumped and put on a brave face. I did the same thing nearly two years later. You remain “friends” because you dilute your mind into thinking ‘oh she’ll come back when she doesn’t find anything better’. Except she did and this is where our stories separate.

My theory is that somehow he stumbled across the story of the Asian woman raped and strangled by RLM and came up with his plan. He killed Hae and used Jay to get rid of the body by threatening him with going to the cops with the drug dealing. He knew, as is pretty obvious, that Jay was as soft as can be and wouldn't flip on him. Except the cops gave Jay a sweetheart deal because they realized that Adnan was, and is still to this day, manipulative sociopath that will use anyone and anything he can to get himself out of trouble.

There's no way he didn’t do it. No one else, including RLM, had the means, motive and opportunity to commit the crime. Not in that time frame

Adnan: "You have to help me hide this body or else I'll tell the cops you sell weed."

Jay: "Omg, I will do anything you say! Oh.......wait just a minute here.....you go on ahead and tell the cops I sell weed. When they come asking me about that, I'll let them know you murdered your ex girlfriend. Find someone else to help you bury that body, bro."

That's where the "Adnan forced Jay to do it by threatening to tell on him for selling drugs" theory falls apart.
 
My boss referred me to the Serial podcast last Friday (best boss ever!) and I binge listened all weekend. Doing a little research today and came across this article. I haven't read this thread yet, so pardon me if it's already been posted, but it was published today (3/26/18).

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1432230/serial-hero-adnan-syed-gets-second-chance-us-court/
ANNAPOLIS: For the past 18 years he has spent behind bars, Adnan Syed has claimed he is innocent of murdering his ex-girlfriend in a case turned into a global sensation by a hit podcast.

Now a US court is weighing whether the 37-year-old son of Pakistani immigrants can be retried, the outcome of a stunning reversal after the Serial series poked major holes in the prosecution&#8217;s case.
 
I believe that article was published in June 2017.

I would like to listen to Bob Ruffs podcast but haven't been able to find it yet. Anyone give me a helping hand please?


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I believe that article was published in June 2017.

I would like to listen to Bob Ruffs podcast but haven't been able to find it yet. Anyone give me a helping hand please?


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Ah, you are correct! My mistake!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I believe that article was published in June 2017.

I would like to listen to Bob Ruffs podcast but haven't been able to find it yet. Anyone give me a helping hand please?


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It's called Serial Dynasty, which predates Truth and Justice. Hope that helps.
 
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