ME - Lewiston, Mass Shooting, Multiple Scenes, 18 killed *shooter found dead* Oct 2023 #2

[al66pine]

Violence, Threats, Mental Health, Gun Seizure?

BeginnerSleuther said:
".... The vast majority of depressed people are not suicidal or homicidal. Why would we take away their rights for having a medical condition?" (sbm)

If they had a record or history of violence or threats of violence, it would be warranted.

@Betty P
Iiuc, ^ post argues that LE could & should seize firearm/s from an owner who is depressed/mentally ill if the owner has a "record or history of violence or threats of violence." Let's say a law authorizes that.
Note: not speaking specifically to Maine's current "Yellow Flag" law or any state's "Red Flag law., but what I understand to be the gist of OP's hypothesized law.

What constitutes a "RECORD" of violence?
A CRIMINAL CONVICTION for battery, grievous bodily injury, rape, other sexual assault, kidnapping?
Okay, seems like a such a conviction would be a "record of violence" which would constitute probable cause for LE to seize firearms.

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but sometimes some 911 callers do not recall or relate events accurately & sometimes some LE Incident Reports are not accurate. Until/unless there is a crim conviction, what constitutes a "record or history of violence or threats of violence?"

Batty P. or anyone?

 

[Betty P]

A CRIMINAL CONVICTION for battery, grievous bodily injury, rape, other sexual assault, kidnapping?
Okay, seems like a such a conviction would be a "record of violence" which would constitute probable cause for LE to seize firearms.

Yes, that.

I also think that people who use a gun while intoxicated, on drugs, etc. and during commission of any crime should be treated the same as sex offenders. Their names and addresses should be made public in a gun offender registry. They should be restricted in where they live and should be required to drive cars with license plates of certain colors to indicate they may be a danger to the public.

As with drunk drivers and sex offender registries, those will vary according to state, but should be kept as uniform as possible. JMO

 

[Betty P]

It actually wouldn't and the law would protect their rights, IME

In many states it is the law. Citizens don't have a Constitutional right to commit violent crimes and own guns, at least not in the US.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

In many states it is the law. Citizens don't have a Constitutional right to commit violent crimes and own guns, at least not in the US.

No one said citizens have a Constitutional right to commit violent crimes and own guns.

You said "If they had a record or history of violence or threats of violence, it would be warranted.

And I'm saying that a history of threats of violence does not rid them of their right to own a gun in the long-term, especially if it was a mental health related issue and the mental illness is treated. Can you cite which states have this law regarding threats?

A convicted felon is a different story. JMO

 

[Betty P]

No one said citizens have a Constitutional right to commit violent crimes and own guns.

You said "If they had a record or history of violence or threats of violence, it would be warranted.

And I'm saying that a history of threats of violence does not rid them of their right to own a gun in the long-term, especially if it was a mental health related issue and the mental illness is treated. Can you cite which states have this law regarding threats?

A convicted felon is a different story. JMO

I think we've already settled this and we agree.

I also think people who have that recorded history of violence as well as past convictions for other gun related crimes, including firing weapons or threatening with a gun while intoxicated, etc. should be required to be listed in a public registry, similar to laws for sex offenders. Also, special license plates.

 

[MrsWatson]

In his 1st interview, friend who warned officials of Maine shooter says 'I literally spelled it out'

For 17 years, Sean Hodgson was best friends with the man who would commit Maine's deadliest mass shooting.

apnews.com

 

[imstilla.grandma]

To be guilty of terrorizing under Maine law, a person must communicate a threat of “violence dangerous to human life.” And, critically, the threat must be serious enough that either the potential victim or a third-party who hears the threat could have a “reasonable fear that the crime will be committed.”

When pressed by commission member Toby Dilworth, Skolfield said there were several reasons why a terrorizing charge would have been difficult or ill-advised.

First, he said he didn’t know where Card was when he made the threats, except that he and his friend were apparently driving home from the casino in Oxford. If they were not in Sagadahoc County, Skolfield had no jurisdiction.

Natasha Irving, district attorney for Sagadahoc, Knox, Waldo and Lincoln counties, said jurisdictional rules are “cut and dry,” and charging someone in the incorrect jurisdiction can doom a prosecution. But there are workarounds; police can find out where a crime occurred and contact the agency in that jurisdiction – a step that Skolfield didn’t take.

Why didn’t Sagadahoc deputies charge Lewiston gunman with terrorizing?

That question was a key moment in a hearing last week before the governor's commission investigating the mass shooting. Police say that even though Robert Card had threatened to commit a mass shooting, it wasn't enough to bring him into custody.

www.centralmaine.com

 

[imstilla.grandma]

The emotional testimonies came after Mills laid out a new legislative plan to expand Maine's background checks for gun sales and close a loophole in the state's "yellow flag" law that allows law enforcement a pathway to take guns from someone deemed a danger to themselves or others in her State of the State address on Tuesday.

"The Governor’s proposal to improve Maine’s extreme risk protection order law would allow law enforcement to seek the permission of a judge to take a person into protective custody when that individual is not voluntarily making themselves available to law enforcement," Scott Ogden, a spokesperson for Gov. Mills, wrote in an email to USA TODAY.

"This will remove a barrier by providing law enforcement with another tool to ensure that someone is taken into protective custody and their weapons are removed,” Mills said.

"We know that, in the case of the Lewiston shooter, law enforcement officers were not able to take him into protective custody to initiate our extreme risk protection law to remove his weapons," Mills said during her address.

As Maine governor pushes for new gun laws, Lewiston shooting victims' families speak out

Testimony from family members of the victims killed in Lewiston's mass shooting comes the same week that Maine Gov. Janet Mills proposed new gun legislation.

www.usatoday.com

 

[MyBelle]

The emotional testimonies came after Mills laid out a new legislative plan to expand Maine's background checks for gun sales and close a loophole in the state's "yellow flag" law that allows law enforcement a pathway to take guns from someone deemed a danger to themselves or others in her State of the State address on Tuesday.

"The Governor’s proposal to improve Maine’s extreme risk protection order law would allow law enforcement to seek the permission of a judge to take a person into protective custody when that individual is not voluntarily making themselves available to law enforcement," Scott Ogden, a spokesperson for Gov. Mills, wrote in an email to USA TODAY.

"This will remove a barrier by providing law enforcement with another tool to ensure that someone is taken into protective custody and their weapons are removed,” Mills said.

"We know that, in the case of the Lewiston shooter, law enforcement officers were not able to take him into protective custody to initiate our extreme risk protection law to remove his weapons," Mills said during her address.

As Maine governor pushes for new gun laws, Lewiston shooting victims' families speak out

Testimony from family members of the victims killed in Lewiston's mass shooting comes the same week that Maine Gov. Janet Mills proposed new gun legislation.

www.usatoday.com

Heartbreaking testimony for sure. Reminds of the Uvalde survivors begging Texas legislators to pass such laws. They refused.

Thanks for the link. Public safety legislation always should be based on common sense.

JMO

 

[sds71]

Robert Card had evidence of traumatic brain injury. In the white matter, the nerve fibers that allow for communication between different areas of the brain, there was significant degeneration, axonal and myelin loss, inflammation, and small blood vessel injury. There was no evidence of chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE),” said Dr. Ann McKee, director of the BU CTE Center which performed the analysis.

“These findings align with our previous studies on the effects of blast injury in humans and experimental models. While I cannot say with certainty that these pathological findings underlie Mr. Card’s behavioral changes in the last 10 months of life, based on our previous work, brain injury likely played a role in his symptoms.”

Card was a member of the U.S. Army Reserve and would run firearm and hand grenade trainings during annual events at West Point in New York.

Forensic analysis shows Lewiston shooter had traumatic brain injury

Robert Card's family agreed to release the findings of the brain analysis Wednesday.

www.pressherald.com

 

[JerseyWasHome2]

Robert Card had evidence of traumatic brain injury. In the white matter, the nerve fibers that allow for communication between different areas of the brain, there was significant degeneration, axonal and myelin loss, inflammation, and small blood vessel injury. There was no evidence of chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE),” said Dr. Ann McKee, director of the BU CTE Center which performed the analysis.

“These findings align with our previous studies on the effects of blast injury in humans and experimental models. While I cannot say with certainty that these pathological findings underlie Mr. Card’s behavioral changes in the last 10 months of life, based on our previous work, brain injury likely played a role in his symptoms.”

Card was a member of the U.S. Army Reserve and would run firearm and hand grenade trainings during annual events at West Point in New York.

Forensic analysis shows Lewiston shooter had traumatic brain injury

Robert Card's family agreed to release the findings of the brain analysis Wednesday.

www.pressherald.com

Trying to understand the results. If his brain injuries were from his specific military tasks, would there not be countless other people affected the same way? And perhaps there are, but it seems like there would be more horrific cases like this attributed to that type of repeat scenario he was subjected to?

 

[airportwoman]

He may also have had some other degenerative process that hasn't been diagnosed yet.

A huge tragedy for all involved.

Maine mass shooter Robert Card had 'traumatic brain injuries,' new report shows

A new report found Robert Card, the gunman who carried out the deadliest shooting in Maine's history, had traumatic brain injuries.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Betty P]

He may also have had some other degenerative process that hasn't been diagnosed yet.

A huge tragedy for all involved.

Maine mass shooter Robert Card had 'traumatic brain injuries,' new report shows

A new report found Robert Card, the gunman who carried out the deadliest shooting in Maine's history, had traumatic brain injuries.

www.usatoday.com

He shouldn't have had access to guns, especially WMD like military grade automatic rifles with military grade ammo.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Trying to understand the results. If his brain injuries were from his specific military tasks, would there not be countless other people affected the same way? And perhaps there are, but it seems like there would be more horrific cases like this attributed to that type of repeat scenario he was subjected to?

No. Different parts of the brain do different things.

Not everyone is injured as this guy was.

Those who are injured like this guy aren't necessarily injured in the same part of the brain.

Those who are injured in the same part of the brain as this guy aren't all injured to the same extent.

Those who are injured in the same part of the brain and to the same extent as this guy, don't necessarily manifest their brain dysfunction through violence.

Those who are injured in the same part of the brain and to the same extent as this guy and do manifest their brain dysfunction through violence don't necessarily do it through mass shooting.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Police are not trying to find the leaker, State Police Col. William Ross said, calling it a “needle in a haystack.” However, Ross said, the leak of the bulletin made the police response more difficult at a time when there was already “just a flurry of activity” in Lewiston, where 18 people were killed in October at a bowling alley and a bar.

Representatives of the Cumberland County Sheriff’s Office and Portland Police Department said they weren’t sending officers to testify Friday.

The commission that took testimony Friday was appointed by the governor and is composed of seven members including mental health professionals and former prosecutors and judges. Wathen is a former Maine chief justice.

Former meetings of the panel, which is expected to issue a final report in summer, have focused on victims, Army personnel and members of Card’s family. Card’s relatives said during a hearing last week that they struggled to get help for him as his mental health declined and his behavior became more erratic. At another hearing, a fellow reservist detailed his attempts to flag Card’s decline for their superiors

The leak of a police bulletin complicated the response to Maine mass shooting, official testifies

LEWISTON, Maine (AP) — A bulletin about the deadliest mass shooting in Maine history that was sent to police agencies had been leaked on social media early on, complicating an already difficult sea…

www.wjbf.com

 

[Odeto BJ]

Police are not trying to find the leaker, State Police Col. William Ross said, calling it a “needle in a haystack.” However, Ross said, the leak of the bulletin made the police response more difficult at a time when there was already “just a flurry of activity” in Lewiston, where 18 people were killed in October at a bowling alley and a bar.

Representatives of the Cumberland County Sheriff’s Office and Portland Police Department said they weren’t sending officers to testify Friday.

The commission that took testimony Friday was appointed by the governor and is composed of seven members including mental health professionals and former prosecutors and judges. Wathen is a former Maine chief justice.

Former meetings of the panel, which is expected to issue a final report in summer, have focused on victims, Army personnel and members of Card’s family. Card’s relatives said during a hearing last week that they struggled to get help for him as his mental health declined and his behavior became more erratic. At another hearing, a fellow reservist detailed his attempts to flag Card’s decline for their superiors

Seems like a panel was inevitable, but it also seems there were plenty of mistakes made by LE and the army reserve, both before the event and after during the search.
As well as a bunch of folks now playing the KYAC cards as best they can. Whatever the content and recommendations of the panel's report any change is going to be diluted and diffused because, military or paramilitary, these groups are not going to own any wrongdoing or errors made and will implement only the minimalist version of any change to procedure or protocol. Same old stuff, different fork.

OMO and hoping for better.

 

[vls12345]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/20/us/lewiston-maine-shooting-investigation-report/index.html

"An independent commission tasked with reviewing the shooting rampage in Lewiston, Maine, last October found the local sheriff’s office and leaders of the gunman’s Army Reserve Unit failed to take actions that might have prevented the shooting."

 

[ilovewings]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/20/us/lewiston-maine-shooting-investigation-report/index.html

"An independent commission tasked with reviewing the shooting rampage in Lewiston, Maine, last October found the local sheriff’s office and leaders of the gunman’s Army Reserve Unit failed to take actions that might have prevented the shooting."

It is always so depressing to realize that something could have been done by law enforcement that possibly, maybe even probably, avoided the horror of a mass shooting.

 

[Betty P]

It is always so depressing to realize that something could have been done by law enforcement that possibly, maybe even probably, avoided the horror of a mass shooting.

And to know that nothing changes. The same mistakes are repeated. In many communities, local LE and politicians don't want to take steps to protect the public, especially if they "know the family" and "he's ok, give him another chance", "he'd never really hurt anybody".

Those attitudes among local LE and politicians are very, very common these days, when it comes to taking away guns. Now if he were smoking marijuana, they wouldn't hesitate to take it away and send him to prison.

 

[weepingangel]

Lewiston mass shooter may have been stalking ex-coworkers to ambush them, report says

The Department of Homeland Security released a new report this week that suggests the gunman who shot and killed 18 people in Lewiston, Maine, last October could have been stalking his ex-coworkers at the Maine Recycling Corp. in Lisbon to ambush them, according to the Portland Press Herald...

www.necn.com