Member of Grand Jury speaks on 20/20

[chlban]

Well that is also part of my theory. I think JBR's body was initially concealed in the trunk of one of the R's cars, or possibly in the crawl space in the train room - which could be why JR put a chair in front of door, hoping to prevent anyone entering.

At that time it was a 'simple' kidnapping - their daughter had been taken so the couple would not have expected anyone to search the house. They had already told the police they had looked everywhere - why wasn't that enough?

The plan was that when the phone call did not materialize then naturally the police would leave the Ramseys home. The couple could then bring the body out, leave her in the cellar and then make another call to the police saying they had discovered their daughter's body - dead. The kidnapper had killed her and returned her body to them because they went against instructions and had called the police.

Unfortunately the plan went wrong. The police showed no signs of going. John knew that if a thorough search was undertaken then his daughter's body may be discovered in his car. He HAD to bring her back inside, which he did. He put her in the wine cellar - this accounts for his 'missing' time.

He went back upstairs and as soon as Arndt suggested another search John was up out of his seat and straight down to the cellar room where he 'discovered' JBR.

You know the rest.

Respectfully, why would they think that the police would leave when the Ransom Call didn't materialize? Had they never watched a movie in their lives? A Kidnapping would result in police monitoring the home installing phone taps, etc.

Also, it that were the plan, wouldn't the Ramseys' have actually pretended to pay some minor attention to time frame in which the "kidnappers" were to call? They should have at lease acknowledge it which, by all reports, they did not.

 

[Cranberry]

Respectfully, why would they think that the police would leave when the Ransom Call didn't materialize? Had they never watched a movie in their lives? A Kidnapping would result in police monitoring the home installing phone taps, etc.

Also, it that were the plan, wouldn't the Ramseys' have actually pretended to pay some minor attention to time frame in which the "kidnappers" were to call? They should have at lease acknowledge it which, by all reports, they did not.

Right chlban, look at the sequence of events after 5:00 pm is mentioned in regards to stalling the kidnappers, from this exchange in JR's April 1997 interview: it's no call, disappear, find body

TT: OK. (inaudible) the phones there, and then while that’s going on, things are, and I’m jumping around a little bit. Why don’t you keep going on to talking through, telling you how to answer the phone and that sort of thing, what happens throughout the day after that? (Inaudible) and went.
JR: Ah, well, I remember they took me aside, and we sat in John Andrew’s room which is the one next to JonBenet’s and she went through what I should do when we talked to the caller and I must insist that I talk to JonBenet and that we need until 5 o’clock to raise the money. I’d actually called my (inaudible) and arranged for the money. Ah, and I think we had by that time started to wonder if one of the housekeepers might be involved. And there was some activity around that direction. We waited until past 11 and then we, and then I think we were in the living room and Linda said why don’t you take someone and look through the house and see if there’s anything you notice that’s unusual. And Fleet and I, Fleet was standing there and said he’d go with me.

 

[Userid]

Thanks all for the summations. I watched this over the weekend and yeah, it was worthless in all honestly. Nothing new at all; simply a "ratings-getter" for 20/20 and a total bust. The GJ member divulged nothing that wasn't already known, and the one thing that would have been utterly enlightening (who he thought did it), he didn't say (guess I can't blame him entirely for that though, nor 20/20 because I'm sure it was a ratings grabber for them).

Also, the CNN Special Report was just as worthless. For anyone who hasn't seen them yet, but knows about the case, don't waste your time.

Has anyone seen the Reelz special: Overkill: the JBR Case? It aired last night, but I didn't catch it. I'm hoping it's not as pointless as these two programs.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Phone taps would have been put on the phones but I think it's possible that the R's would have expected/hoped the police would vacate the premises until the following day. John stated that the 'kidnapper' could have meant he would call on the 27th.

Until that call came through there wouldn't be much that anyone could do.


"Linda said why don’t you take someone and look through the house and see if there’s anything you notice that’s unusual"

Didn't Linda actually say "John - Why don't you search the house from top to bottom?"

I expect John asked FW to accompany him. He wouldn't have wanted to 'discover' the body of JBR on his own.

 

[tweezybird]

I've been watching and re-watching all the JB shows all weekend and saw a couple of things that I have to question. In JonBenet's Mother: Victim or Killer, I think it was, Jeff Shapiro said one of the two blood spots in JB's underwear was a match to the touch DNA on her leggings. I don't remember that being true.
Then another program (sorry don't know which, I was flipping back and forth) they showed, very briefly, writing from John Mark Karr, and I have to say it looked VERY much like the ransom note. Did anyone see that, or did I see it wrong..

Also, an early interview they played had John saying the alarm was not set, but I seem to remember a more recent interview where he said the alarm was set. Am I not remembering correctly?

Thanks,
Terri

 

[Userid]

I've been watching and re-watching all the JB shows all weekend and saw a couple of things that I have to question. In JonBenet's Mother: Victim or Killer, I think it was, Jeff Shapiro said one of the two blood spots in JB's underwear was a match to the touch DNA on her leggings. I don't remember that being true.
Then another program (sorry don't know which, I was flipping back and forth) they showed, very briefly, writing from John Mark Karr, and I have to say it looked VERY much like the ransom note. Did anyone see that, or did I see it wrong..

Also, an early interview they played had John saying the alarm was not set, but I seem to remember a more recent interview where he said the alarm was set. Am I not remembering correctly?

Thanks,
Terri

Yup, they do say that in that special about the touch DNA being the same as the DNA on the underwear.

And yes, JMK's writing does look a lot like the ransom note (as does PR's). If you read that one yearbook entry, he even sounds like the ransom note writer because in that entry, he says the same thing over and over again, making in unnecessarily long; he could've said what he needed to in 3 sentences, but writes an essay.

I don't have an answer on the alarm question other than to say that I've always heard that the alarm was never set. JR got out of the habit of setting it because it was ridiculously loud and he hated the noise, but who knows -- he probably changed his story like he always does.

 

[mrseeker]

I don't think JMK's handwriting looks anything like the ransom note. It's not even close.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

I don't think JMK's handwriting looks anything like the ransom note. It's not even close.

Yeah, that was what I remember thinking looking at his yearbook writing. It's been a while though, I guess. I remember reading transcripts from Nancy Grace or some show like that where they interviewed the guy who declared JMK'S yearbook handwriting a match to the ransom note. (You know, during the day or so JMK considered a viable suspect.) He claimed that he found 10 similarities between JMK'S handwriting and the note and he considered that a conclusive match. In comparison, Cina Wong found 200 similarities between Patsy's and the ransom note author's.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[otg]

(bbm)

I've been watching and re-watching all the JB shows all weekend and saw a couple of things that I have to question. In JonBenet's Mother: Victim or Killer, I think it was, Jeff Shapiro said one of the two blood spots in JB's underwear was a match to the touch DNA on her leggings. I don't remember that being true.
Then another program (sorry don't know which, I was flipping back and forth) they showed, very briefly, writing from John Mark Karr, and I have to say it looked VERY much like the ransom note. Did anyone see that, or did I see it wrong..

Also, an early interview they played had John saying the alarm was not set, but I seem to remember a more recent interview where he said the alarm was set. Am I not remembering correctly?

Thanks,
Terri

Yup, they do say that in that special about the touch DNA being the same as the DNA on the underwear.

And yes, JMK's writing does look a lot like the ransom note (as does PR's). If you read that one yearbook entry, he even sounds like the ransom note writer because in that entry, he says the same thing over and over again, making in unnecessarily long; he could've said what he needed to in 3 sentences, but writes an essay.

I don't have an answer on the alarm question other than to say that I've always heard that the alarm was never set. JR got out of the habit of setting it because it was ridiculously loud and he hated the noise, but who knows -- he probably changed his story like he always does.

According to all reports, John told investigators the alarm was not set, and that in fact they hadn't used it for some time. The reason he gave (at various times) was that they didn't know the code to turn it off because it was in the house when they bought it, and JonBenet had set it off unintentionally without their being able to turn it off. (I know, the answers don't jive with one another, but that was what he told the police.)

Hopefully some of the questions about the DNA and the handwriting will be answered (or at least addressed) in the book scheduled for release tomorrow. Here is what the description says at Amazon (emphasis mine):

What really happened to JonBenet Ramsey? Was her death intentional or an accident, covered up to look like a botched kidnapping? What are the facts about the case DNA? What does it really tell us? Is it relevant to the crime or is it contamination? Can it be tied to an intruder, or was District Attorney Mary Lacy’s attempt at exoneration of the Ramseys based on faulty interpretation of the actual lab results?

“Listen Carefully: Truth and Evidence in the JonBenet Ramsey Case” contains 12 pages of explosive DNA reports from Bode Cellmark Forensics that had been hidden until recently, as well details of the 2013 shocking revelation that John and Patsy Ramsey were indicted by a Grand Jury in 1999, but the Boulder District Attorney declined to prosecute.

Exposing the many myths and misrepresentations of facts in the Ramsey case, the book uses documented evidence and detailed research, as well as extensive interviews with many who were involved in the case, to present the truth surrounding JonBenet’s death and the 20-year investigation.

With a thorough linguistic analysis of the ransom note, as well as handwriting comparisons, new photos, footnotes, a bibliography for further reading and five appendices (including timelines, Ramsey house plans, and a guide to understanding DNA), the book is essential for anyone interested in not only what happened to JonBenet, but why.

The True Crime Detectives Guild is a private organization that studies cases of unsolved crimes. Guild members have expertise in various disciplines. Modeled on the Vidocq Society, their primary goal is to shed light on challenging criminal cases, particularly those that have affected the public’s trust in an impartial media and an unbiased system of justice. Membership in the Guild is by invitation only.
​

(Hopefully, after reading this book, even I'll understand enough about DNA that I can form my own opinions. As it is, I haven't understood enough about it to even attempt discussing it.)

 

[kanzz]

I've been watching and re-watching all the JB shows all weekend and saw a couple of things that I have to question. In JonBenet's Mother: Victim or Killer, I think it was, Jeff Shapiro said one of the two blood spots in JB's underwear was a match to the touch DNA on her leggings. I don't remember that being true.
Then another program (sorry don't know which, I was flipping back and forth) they showed, very briefly, writing from John Mark Karr, and I have to say it looked VERY much like the ransom note. Did anyone see that, or did I see it wrong..

Also, an early interview they played had John saying the alarm was not set, but I seem to remember a more recent interview where he said the alarm was set. Am I not remembering correctly?

Thanks,
Terri

BBM

Yes, I've seen images of JMK's handwriting that look much like that in the RN and PR's handwriting. And I think - in addition to the fact that he is a pervert who was looking for his 15 minutes of fame - he noticed that as well. This even could have been when he started fabricating his fantasy. He needed more details, so he created Daxis in order to extract them via email from Ramsey apologist and CU Professor Michael Tracey, who fell right into his trap.

The alarm was not set. All the doors were locked. Anything JR said later is moot (and a lie).

 

[otg]

BBM

Yes, I've seen images of JMK's handwriting that look much like that in the RN and PR's handwriting. And I think - in addition to the fact that he is a pervert who was looking for his 15 minutes of fame - he noticed that as well. This even could have been when he started fabricating his fantasy. He needed more details, so he created Daxis in order to extract them via email from Ramsey apologist and CU Professor Michael Tracey, who fell right into his trap.

The alarm was not set. All the doors were locked. Anything JR said later is moot (and a lie).

The following is a long, very well written article from 2006, by Alan Prendergast. He explains a lot of how the whole JMK fiasco got started, developed, and then exploded in Lacy's face. He nails Tracey's IDIocy. In this same article, Prendergast explains some of the behind-the-scenes activities of the Ramsey PIs and some of their "suspects" thrown under the proverbial bus, cleared, and who keep having their names thrown out there as possible "suspects." It's well worth reading for those unfamiliar with some of this stuff.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/made-for-each-other-6426796

 

[kanzz]

Right chlban, look at the sequence of events after 5:00 pm is mentioned in regards to stalling the kidnappers, from this exchange in JR's April 1997 interview: it's no call, disappear, find body

TT: OK. (inaudible) the phones there, and then while that’s going on, things are, and I’m jumping around a little bit. Why don’t you keep going on to talking through, telling you how to answer the phone and that sort of thing, what happens throughout the day after that? (Inaudible) and went.
JR: Ah, well, I remember they took me aside, and we sat in John Andrew’s room which is the one next to JonBenet’s and she went through what I should do when we talked to the caller and I must insist that I talk to JonBenet and that we need until 5 o’clock to raise the money. I’d actually called my (inaudible) and arranged for the money. Ah, and I think we had by that time started to wonder if one of the housekeepers might be involved. And there was some activity around that direction. We waited until past 11 and then we, and then I think we were in the living room and Linda said why don’t you take someone and look through the house and see if there’s anything you notice that’s unusual. And Fleet and I, Fleet was standing there and said he’d go with me.

BBM

It's very odd how JR places this at 11:00, which just happens to be the same time that he told Stewart Long (Melinda's boyfriend) he had discovered JB's body.

 

[kanzz]

The following is a long, very well written article from 2006, by Alan Prendergast. He explains a lot of how the whole JMK fiasco got started, developed, and then exploded in Lacy's face. He nails Tracey's IDIocy. In this same article, Prendergast explains some of the behind-the-scenes activities of the Ramsey PIs and some of their "suspects" thrown under the proverbial bus, cleared, and who keep having their names thrown out there as possible "suspects." It's well worth reading for those unfamiliar with some of this stuff.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/made-for-each-other-6426796

Thanks for this, otg. I fully intended to provide a link to this piece when I posted and it slipped my mind. (Losing it!)

This part about Tracey's role in the JMK debacle is significant:
"He was much more than a passive audience for a goofball's confession; in the hundreds of pages of e-mails and fourteen hours of taped phone conversations, there are unsettling instances of Tracey supplying key information to the fumbling Karr, details that Karr was able to use to make his lies more credible. Adding to the ironies of the fiasco is the distinct possibility that Karr obtained some of his "inside" knowledge of the murder from studying Tracey's documentaries."

 

[kanzz]

Here's some more info about Michael Tracey and how things turned out for him after he got egg all over his face with this whole Daxis thing.

Michael Tracey, CU prof in Ramsey family-John Mark Karr debacle: Negative job evaluations

"Remember Michael Tracey? He's the CU journalism professor whose obsession with the JonBenét Ramsey murder helped lead to a media frenzy over false confessor John Mark Karr back in 2006. Could his apparent disinterest in actual student instruction have finally caught up with him? One possible indication: two consecutive negative job evaluations, which will trigger what's termed an 'extensive post-tenure review.'"

 

[PositiveLight]

Incidentally, it's good to see PositiveLight back. Hope you get to feeling better soon, my friend.

Thank you so much OTG!!!! It's a slow process and having some rough
days BUT I'm hanging in there!!!
Great to be back among the living!:happydance:

 

[PositiveLight]

PositiveLight,
Cute doggies, with names like Keyser Sose, I'll bet they would have found JonBenet in a matter of minutes.

.

Thank you!!!
I bet they would have too!
Which has always bothered me actually. I'm glad you brought that up!
Why weren't canines immediately brought in to track her scent trail that morning? At the time, they didn't know who it was. It could have been a neighbor! Not knowing what we know now, it was possible (with what the detectives knew upon arriving at the scene) she could have been alive two houses down and been rescued! I would bet a canine would have led them straight to the body immediately.

 

[UKGuy]

Thank you!!!
I bet they would have too!
Which has always bothered me actually. I'm glad you brought that up!
Why weren't canines immediately brought in to track her scent trail that morning? At the time, they didn't know who it was. It could have been a neighbor! Not knowing what we know now, it was possible (with what the detectives knew upon arriving at the scene) she could have been alive two houses down and been rescued! I would bet a canine would have led them straight to the body immediately.

PositiveLight,
I'm a dog person, I find them more sociable than say cats, which I also like. The Police knew they didn't need the dogs, just like the FBI knew it was no abduction case.

Yes the canine unit would have found JonBenet right away, let loose I can imagine them racing from room to room, then howling once they reached the basement?

That FW never saw or smelled JonBenet that morning is a mystery. Thats why I reckon JR moved her into the wine-cellar, similar hints about her bedroom being the primary crime-scene.

.

 

[Bently]

Folks mentioned the *Reelz Channel* episode that was on this week.

Is replaying at 8 o'clock tonight and 10 o'clock tonight and 11 o'clock on Thursday December 22nd eastern time

It is a two hour show.

It is showing the name of the show as " Overkill, the unsolved murder of JonBenet"

Fyi

 

[Ambitioned]

PositiveLight,
Police knew they didn't need the dogs, just like the FBI knew it was no abduction case

.

Remind me again who was it that read the note and then said, "We have a body?"

 

[Bently]

Is there a thread for the Reelz channel show? Or can I post screen shots and comments here in the 20/20 thread?