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DeeDee249 said:
I don't think there is evidence that her hands were ever tied behind her. If there is a link to it, please post it if anyone knows. I don't mean heresay or opinion, but a link to either forensic or eyewitness accounts of her hands being behind her back. When JB said "behind her/over her head", he didn't mean behind her back, but rather up over her as she LAY on her back.
I can't say for sure, and neither can anyone else, that she was ever placed in a chair in the basement, tied or not. But one thing I can say for sure- livor mortis patterns indicate she was placed on her back within minutes of death. In the wineceller. And she was lying flat when strangled- the circumferential ligature furrow indicated that.
Click to expand...

I believe it said she was strangled by garotte which was tied at the back of her neck? She was found with her hands over her head. There is no indication of where her hands were when she was strangled. How do you deduce she was lying flat when strangled? Could she not have been upright and strangled from behind?
 
Tadpole12 said:
Hey MF.

Yeah. Success.:woohoo:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/album.php?albumid=1224

What are you focussing on. The black circular mark to the right or the unusual trapezoid shape?
Click to expand...

Yeeehaaaa! Trapezoid eh? I like that word. Yep that's it. When you look at the original pic it looks like a single mark, but when you separate out the colours etc, this distinct 'trapezoid' shape appears. My theory is that it is the same shape as the muzzle of a pistol, what do you reckon?
 
Gee MF.

It's an Isosceles Trapezoid, to be exact.

I can't say, but it might be similar.
 
MurriFlower said:
Yeeehaaaa! Trapezoid eh? I like that word. Yep that's it. When you look at the original pic it looks like a single mark, but when you separate out the colours etc, this distinct 'trapezoid' shape appears. My theory is that it is the same shape as the muzzle of a pistol, what do you reckon?
Click to expand...

Looks more like the butt (handle) of a gun to me, but I don't think it is. As I look at the darker green (in the enhancement, not the actual photo) of the ligature furrow, it is the same dark color as the interior of that trapezoid shape. It could represent a deeper concentration of blood pooling in the area, spreading out to the lighter green shade in the trapezoid shape.
It would be an odd place to push the handle of a gun, and the muzzle of the gun (depending on the gun) would show an indentation more like a small circle.
 
MurriFlower said:
I believe it said she was strangled by garotte which was tied at the back of her neck? She was found with her hands over her head. There is no indication of where her hands were when she was strangled. How do you deduce she was lying flat when strangled? Could she not have been upright and strangled from behind?
Click to expand...

I don't think so. The ligature furrow would not be as circumferential in that case, but would evidence the cord higher under her chin in the front and up near the nape in the back. I think the urine release happened at some point right after she was strangled, and the anterior stain indicates she was on her stomach for that. Combined with the ligature knot, this puts her on her stomach for the garrote and strangulation, and then placed on her back dead or near death.
What does the chair add to the crime or to the solving of it? Any discussion about her being in a chair is pure speculation anyway, as is much else in the discussion, since we have no eyewitness. For myself, I prefer to stick to what we DO know. That is, she was found lying on the floor with a circumferential ligature furrow. That part is fact, not conjecture. So for me, it is pointless to consider something like a chair, when she wasn't found in a chair and nothing indicates she was in a chair, just as it is pointless to consider that her hands were tied behind her at one point. There is nothing to indicate that they were.
Frankly, the chair makes no difference to the crime, nor does the conjecture that at some point her hands were tied behind her back. To IDI, these things obviously point to something an intruder would do, but to me, they could just as well be staging anyway.
 
DeeDee249 said:
Looks more like the butt (handle) of a gun to me, but I don't think it is. As I look at the darker green (in the enhancement, not the actual photo) of the ligature furrow, it is the same dark color as the interior of that trapezoid shape. It could represent a deeper concentration of blood pooling in the area, spreading out to the lighter green shade in the trapezoid shape.
It would be an odd place to push the handle of a gun, and the muzzle of the gun (depending on the gun) would show an indentation more like a small circle.
Click to expand...

You are thinking of a revolver rather than a target pistol I think. This is the type of hand gun I had in mind that is very close to that shape and actually shows the muzzle of the gun.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-gRqlcg1xQ&feature=related[/ame]
 
Tadpole12 said:
Heyya MF.

ty for the enhanced photos.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/album.php?albumid=1224

The circular abrasion, looks like the skin is broken.
Click to expand...

Don't be confused by the red/pink colour, it's just the tweaking of all the variables. It's actually an indented mark, when you look at the area below it (not in that close up pic), it is puffy like whatever made the mark was pushed in and down on the skin.

There are so few photos of stun gun injuries available online, so can't make that comparative.

One of the pathologists claimed friction burn.

:waitasec:
Click to expand...

Yeah I can't decide what made it. If it wasn't square, I'd reckon it was a skin eruption (sore). As it is, something square in shape made it, but it's not indented like the round mark on the face. The colour within colour looks like a burn to me.
 
You can easily see the "boat-shaped" pattern inside the mark. It had been suggested that it was made by a snap or something like that. But in looking at the enhanced photo, the pattern looks less like a boat and less like something that had an embossed pattern on it. It looks much more random.
 
WHITEFANG said:
Why wouldn't it be a serious comparison?
Click to expand...

Because there's a world of difference between wanting you child to have a good education because it's best for them, as opposed to having them participate in a frivolous activity (which does Odin-knows-what to their sense of self) because it's best for you.
 
DeeDee249 said:
You can easily see the "boat-shaped" pattern inside the mark. It had been suggested that it was made by a snap or something like that. But in looking at the enhanced photo, the pattern looks less like a boat and less like something that had an embossed pattern on it. It looks much more random.
Click to expand...

It actually looks like a little face, but I don't suppose that's what it is (MJ?). What do you say to a four hole button such as on workmen's clothes? Or a raised button (on a shank) with a pattern on it?
 
Tadpole12 said:
Gee, that Glock with the chrome finish is a beautiful gun.
Real 'spy' gun, combat pistol.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg15-e.htm

The butt end? is rectangular.
Click to expand...

Yeah it is, could it cause an 8 inch crack in a childs skull if it was slammed down on her?

Wondering if anyone on here is PD or former PD who might know what the cops were packin' in Boulder back then? Was the Glock favoured, the Walther perhaps, S&W? Anyone ??
 
I stuck around with my daughter Ariana to see Santa.
We hadn't planned to stay, so Ariana wasn't dressed up.

Patsy gave my daughter a Christmas sweater and a vest. Even lent her a pair of her shoes.
At the last minute, Patsy wrote a little verse about Ariana for Santa to read.
LHP


I marvel when the poor give to others out of their lack.
I forget to cherish those who with abundance give to others without fanfare or ulterior motives.
This little story was not headline grabbing.
It has been overlooked, completely, as far as I know.
But, Patsy Ramsey went out of her way to provide the child of a mother of six children with
a sweater,
a vest and
shoes
so she would feel comfortable as she watched Santa.

Best of all, she put pen to paper, and at the last minute, she wrote a little verse about Ariana for Santa to read.

The monetary value of a gift is nothing.
The kindness and thoughtfulness are priceless.
I don't know why, but this old song surfaced in my thoughts just now.

Little Baby
pa rum pum pum pum
I am a poor boy too,
pa rum pum pum pum
I have no gift to bring
pa rum pum pum pum
That's fit to give our King
pa rum pum pum pum

Then He smiled at me
pa rum pum pum pum
me and my drum.
 
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