Members' Theories

[Flatlander]

Do you know where you saw this interview? I had always heard that Patsy said that there were two packs, but I can't find the interview. If you know the show that you saw it on, I can find the transcript for it. Plus this contradicts..(imagine THAT)...what Patsy said in her 98 Interview, where she says that JB had lots of panties, but she can't remember if she had any white/flowered ones with the day of the week written on them. You would think that she would remember buying those...since they were not your average WALMART panties...they were from Bloomingdales....and she had gotten a pack for Jenny also, to give to her as a gift. I think that Patsy is lying about the panties..when she says that she doesn't remember if JB has any of that kind, or not.

I found this:
21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
23 understand why she is wearing such a large
24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
25 help us if you have a recollection of it.

1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.
4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
7 you bought them in November?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
19 duties; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
22 clothes on occasion?
23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?

85
1 A. Not specifically.
2 Q. Was it something that, the fact
3 that she is wearing these underpants designed
4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and
5 I will give you a minute to think about it
6 because I know it is tough to try to pin
7 down a couple of months of casual
8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any
9 conversations with her concerning the fact
10 that she is wearing underwear that is just
11 too large for her?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it
14 was, if it had caught your attention or came
15 to your attention, do you think you might
16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't
17 fit, put something on that fits, that is
18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
19 had come to your attention --
20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.

86
1 I mean, if you have ever seen
2 these little panties, there is not too much
3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
5 they were special because we got them up
6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
8 fine with me.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically
13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?
14 And I am not saying --
15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
19 help herself to whatever is in there.
20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
22 Jenny.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in
25 JonBenet's bathroom?

87
1 A. Right.
2 Q.(By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm
3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet
5 express an interest in them; therefore, you
6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I
8 think I bought them with the intention of
9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that
11 together, so I just put them in her, her
12 panty drawer. So they were free game.

**My mum and I have been studying this case for years but I have never posted until now. Mum lost interest because she states it will never be solved so why bother. I can't help but want nothing more than justice for JB.

I also found this because I remember my mum stating that the package that was suppose to go to Jenny was partially opened and found in the basement.


1997 April 30 - Taped Interrogation interview of Patsy by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo in Colorado

NE Book Page 36:

Tom Trujillo: (Where) do you normally store the Christmas presents say before the 25th?

Patsy Ramsey: "......the basement. I had them all in the basement."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Why don't you walk me through the rest of the 25th? What all did you guys do that day?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, I continued to wrap some presents. I went back down to the basement on the washing machine area there and wrapped for taking the stuff to the lake..."

 

[Flatlander]

A candy Rose; Notice the wrapping paper
http://www.acandyrose.com/12251996christmasmorning.gif

Crime scene photo's: look at the bottom of the picture. Doesn't it look like the wrapping paper used on Christmas morning with JonBenet?
http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...b=144pr6mlt&sigi=10soot75l&.crumb=NTd8cu1dV1u

 

[Flatlander]

Patsy Ramsey made the public statement that there are two people who know who did this, the one who did it and the person they confided in? :what:

 

[DeeDee249]

A candy Rose; Notice the wrapping paper
http://www.acandyrose.com/12251996christmasmorning.gif

Crime scene photo's: look at the bottom of the picture. Doesn't it look like the wrapping paper used on Christmas morning with JonBenet?
http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...b=144pr6mlt&sigi=10soot75l&.crumb=NTd8cu1dV1u

It's been known for a while that was the same wrapping paper. Patsy bought gifts at FAO Schwartz, a well-known NY toy store, at her pre-Christmas shopping trips. This was the wrapping paper from that store. The police noted the partially unwrapped gifts found in the wineceller in their reports.
Many RDI, including myself, believe the parents unwrapped the gifts meant for Jenny (the 12-year old niece for whom the panties found on JB were originally bought for) to find the new panties to put on JB when her own became stained with blood. Evidence that her own blood had been wiped from her pubic area and thighs was discovered at autopsy, and the coroner mentioned to LE that he felt the tiny amount of blood found in the panties was not consistent with the amount of blood that would have required wiping off also the blood on the panties did not correspond to where the blood found INSIDE the vagina would have dripped had she been wearing those panties originally. Though her original panties were never found, the Rs had plenty of opportunity to sneak them out of the house (they were never searched when they left the house that night) or to destroy them. Once burned in a fireplace, for example, if they were completely consumed there would be no way to tell.
That wineceller was filthy, with white mould covering the floor (not uncommon with an unsealed basement concrete floor). It was so thick you can see a footprint in it. There was NO way Patsy (or any women) would have wrapped Christmas gifts in that room. This is the "explanation" Patsy gave to police when asked about the partially opened gifts found in the WC with the body.

 

[Flatlander]

DeeDee, this is exactly why I posted the picture. I also believe that Patsy wrapped Jenny's panties in the basement and opened them down there:

1997 April 30 - Taped Interrogation interview of Patsy by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo in Colorado

NE Book Page 36:

Tom Trujillo: (Where) do you normally store the Christmas presents say before the 25th?

Patsy Ramsey: "......the basement. I had them all in the basement."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Why don't you walk me through the rest of the 25th? What all did you guys do that day?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, I continued to wrap some presents. I went back down to the basement on the washing machine area there and wrapped for taking the stuff to the lake..."

I have my own theories as to what happened and several scenerios but honestly believe in the RDI. I can come up with 2 reasons why JR and PR would cover for one another. One being to save the family unit (BR). The other is that possibly DP, PR's father was the molester. He financially backed JR business and although he owned a place to live there in Boulder we seem to never hear mention of him. Maybe Patsy was sexually abused as a child but kept her mouth shut. That would make Nedra's statement a little more understanding :gasp:. I believe that JB was ready to no longer keep her mouth shut about the abuse and about to talk ... i.e. the 3 phone calls to Dr. Beuf on the 17th. The 911 call on the 23rd (DP was present) and the unanswered JB statement about Santa coming to visit AFTER Christmas. Wonder which Santa made that statement? Didn't DP also pay for the float that JB rode on for the Christmas parade?

I am new here and have more questions than answers. Per ST pg. 48 he states the following: Among the items police now sought were the possible bludgeon that caused the head wound, a golf club with a blond hair on it was found in the backyard. Seems this is never discussed, do you know why?
Also they were looking for traces of semen, and in the victim's bedroom, ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet. The mattress was wrapped in plastic. Do we know if this is semen or urine?

I hope I am not out of bounds here by asking questions.

 

[DeeDee249]

The golf club with blonde hair was never discussed, you are right. Unbelievable.

The substance discovered with the fluoroscope (black light) testing in JB's room, the basement carpet and JB's carpet and her body was found to be urine.
There was NO semen found.

There were, however, semen stains found on a black comforter that was stuffed into the suitcase in the basement. This comforter (sometimes referred to as a blanket) belonged to JR's older son, JAR, and was from his dorm room at the university in Boulder. The Rs identified that suitcase as being one that JAR took back and forth to the campus.
There is no way to "date" that semen stain, and the suitcase itself bore no touch DNA or prints linking it to an intruder or the touch DNA found on the panties. There is no way to link that suitcase or its contents to the crime, except in Lou Smit's mind.
Don't forget that "touch DNA" was not found on JB's BODY. Only on two pieces of clothing which both parents touched.
There was NO blood found in her, on her or her clothing that did not belong to her, and there was NO blood, skin, or usable DNA found under her fingernails, despite the lies that IDI continue to (knowingly) perpetuate. That poor baby was already unconscious when she was strangled (a good thing, IMO). Although a coroner will not put his OPINIONS about his findings in the written report, the circumferential ligature furrow indicated a victim that did not struggle. There were NO fingernails marks- those small marks above and below the ligature furrow are petechial hemorrhages. That IS noted i the written report.

 

[robotdog]

I think JR was jealous of all the attention PR gave to JBR and that is why the sexual assaults started on JBR. JR was taking his anger out on his daughter because he hated PR attention given to JBR.

 

[UKGuy]

The golf club with blonde hair was never discussed, you are right. Unbelievable.

The substance discovered with the fluoroscope (black light) testing in JB's room, the basement carpet and JB's carpet and her body was found to be urine.
There was NO semen found.

There were, however, semen stains found on a black comforter that was stuffed into the suitcase in the basement. This comforter (sometimes referred to as a blanket) belonged to JR's older son, JAR, and was from his dorm room at the university in Boulder. The Rs identified that suitcase as being one that JAR took back and forth to the campus.
There is no way to "date" that semen stain, and the suitcase itself bore no touch DNA or prints linking it to an intruder or the touch DNA found on the panties. There is no way to link that suitcase or its contents to the crime, except in Lou Smit's mind.
Don't forget that "touch DNA" was not found on JB's BODY. Only on two pieces of clothing which both parents touched.
There was NO blood found in her, on her or her clothing that did not belong to her, and there was NO blood, skin, or usable DNA found under her fingernails, despite the lies that IDI continue to (knowingly) perpetuate. That poor baby was already unconscious when she was strangled (a good thing, IMO). Although a coroner will not put his OPINIONS about his findings in the written report, the circumferential ligature furrow indicated a victim that did not struggle. There were NO fingernails marks- those small marks above and below the ligature furrow are petechial hemorrhages. That IS noted i the written report.

DeeDee249,

Don't forget that "touch DNA" was not found on JB's BODY. Only on two pieces of clothing which both parents touched.

Yes, now consider the R's version of events, which means BR's DNA should not appear either on JonBenet's size-12's and the longjohns, which according to Patsy were clean on that night.

So which Ramsey DNA is located on which clothing? Why has this information never been released, suggesting it is forensically important?

It cannot implicate Patsy or John since their fiber deposits already place and link them to the crime-scene.

I have a strong hunch that BR's DNA is located on one or more of JonBenet's clothing?


.

 

[UKGuy]

DeeDee, this is exactly why I posted the picture. I also believe that Patsy wrapped Jenny's panties in the basement and opened them down there:

1997 April 30 - Taped Interrogation interview of Patsy by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo in Colorado

NE Book Page 36:

Tom Trujillo: (Where) do you normally store the Christmas presents say before the 25th?

Patsy Ramsey: "......the basement. I had them all in the basement."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Why don't you walk me through the rest of the 25th? What all did you guys do that day?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, I continued to wrap some presents. I went back down to the basement on the washing machine area there and wrapped for taking the stuff to the lake..."

I have my own theories as to what happened and several scenerios but honestly believe in the RDI. I can come up with 2 reasons why JR and PR would cover for one another. One being to save the family unit (BR). The other is that possibly DP, PR's father was the molester. He financially backed JR business and although he owned a place to live there in Boulder we seem to never hear mention of him. Maybe Patsy was sexually abused as a child but kept her mouth shut. That would make Nedra's statement a little more understanding :gasp:. I believe that JB was ready to no longer keep her mouth shut about the abuse and about to talk ... i.e. the 3 phone calls to Dr. Beuf on the 17th. The 911 call on the 23rd (DP was present) and the unanswered JB statement about Santa coming to visit AFTER Christmas. Wonder which Santa made that statement? Didn't DP also pay for the float that JB rode on for the Christmas parade?

I am new here and have more questions than answers. Per ST pg. 48 he states the following: Among the items police now sought were the possible bludgeon that caused the head wound, a golf club with a blond hair on it was found in the backyard. Seems this is never discussed, do you know why?
Also they were looking for traces of semen, and in the victim's bedroom, ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet. The mattress was wrapped in plastic. Do we know if this is semen or urine?

I hope I am not out of bounds here by asking questions.

Flatlander,

Patsy Ramsey: "......the basement. I had them all in the basement."

So Patsy says, although she might be selective in what she remembers. I reckon either John knew because he had been told by Patsy who was getting what gifts, or Patsy told him that morning as they were staging, and he went opening the gifts looking for the size-12's?

The fiber evidence suggests it was John who cleaned up, and redressed JonBenet, and it was Patsy who asphyxiated her?

Nobody needs to keep gifts in the wine-cellar, particularly the size-12's, since JonBenet already knew about them, and Burke would not be interested. So Patsy just made that up, so to fit the evidence.

In theory Patsy purchased those size-12's, so she should know exactly where they were located, e.g. no need to partially open those gifts, she more or less hints at this in her answer above, which I do not consider reliable, suggesting the size-12's were actually elsewhere?

This should be able to be tested against the R's account at Bloomingdales, there should have been an invoice statement or similar generated for the packaging which was sent to the R's, and these should match what Patsy stated was in the wine-cellar?



.

 

[EastCoast]

I have the feeling that the basement wine cellar was a frantic ordeal. What panties to change her into. Hey, there is some there. How do we do this type thing. They are not afraid, the Ramseys,

 

[EastCoast]

well that made no sense, what I meant was an already deseaced Jon Benet, was brought down to the wine cellar then the staging began.

 

[UKGuy]

well that made no sense, what I meant was an already deseaced Jon Benet, was brought down to the wine cellar then the staging began.

EastCoast,
This is also what I reckoned took place. I also think asphyxiating JonBenet was premeditated and deliberate. She was killed to silence her.

It may have all began as an accident but the acute assault and chronic evidence decreed JonBenet be denied medical assistance, and then strangled to death.


.

 

[gypsychild]

You're right the tea and the pineapple being in the bowl do seem like grown up activities. However, I can't see Patsy making tea and putting it into a glass. It seems as if Burke was trying to recreate something he'd seen his mother do several times. I could see Patsy going over the house and seeing the tea and the bowl of pineapple on the table. She asked Burke and he told her he made it for himself and JB. Patsy was going to clean it up, leaving her fingerprints, and then realized they could use it as more "evidence" of an intruder coming in since they were going to tell LE that Burke was asleep the whole time. Patsy was adamant and I mean adamant about not giving JB the pineapple... which allowed her to say that the intruder must have come in and fed her.

And I think Burke just doesn't think about it. That's exactly what bothers me. He was old enough to know the difference between right and wrong but I'm sure that John and Patsy drilled it into him that he was innocent, that he didn't do anything wrong.... they could have told him so many times that he was asleep in his room when everything happened that he just started to believe it. They are very religious they could have told Burke over and over to forget that night and that Jesus forgave him. You never know. Even if he wasn't involved he has NEVER come forward publicly on an anniversary of JB's death or anything to talk about his sister. If my baby sister was horribly killed I would be trying to find justice for her. Perhaps, it is painful for Burke and therefore he tries to forget that night... but honestly I can't imagine not coming forward and at least saying some nice words about JB.

The reason I have a difficult time believing BR had anything to do with this is that his parents sent him away that day. A child BR's age could really not be trusted to keep the 'story' straight or not blurt out information. I would think the R's would want to keep him very close, watch him very carefully and not want anyone to question him at all out of their hearing. Even though he was sent to a friends house, I would think the people at that house would be asking him questions. I feel as though if BR had the answers they would have slipped out sometime before now.

 

[Flatlander]

The reason I have a difficult time believing BR had anything to do with this is that his parents sent him away that day. A child BR's age could really not be trusted to keep the 'story' straight or not blurt out information. I would think the R's would want to keep him very close, watch him very carefully and not want anyone to question him at all out of their hearing. Even though he was sent to a friends house, I would think the people at that house would be asking him questions. I feel as though if BR had the answers they would have slipped out sometime before now.

Burke did make a statement to the police 3 days after JB passing. He knew what happened. Burke could not have been punished for this crime due to his age. I do honestly believe that whatever took place in that house that evening started out as rage. An accident occured and then there was a cover-up. THe way the case was handled from the get go say's everything. No protocal was followed period! I am rereading ST book again to freshen up. Last night I came across a paragraph that somehow slipped my mind. That the Reverend that was present that morning called Nedra And Don Paugh and Nedra stated that LHP told the Ramsey's that they needed to be careful that LHP wouldn't be surprised if somebody didn't try and kidnap JB.
Will follow up later as I am at lunch break. I found this commecial and everytime I see it I think of those children:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=gjlUHY2cbC8

 

[DeeDee249]

I had read that comment from LHP long ago. LHP apparently felt between Patsy's over-the-top flashiness and the effort to propel a tarted-up JB just advertised JR's wealth. Yet, Nedra also made a comment about how much she and her daughter Patsy just "LOVED spending all John Ramsey's money". So they obviously weren't TOO worried about how it looked.

 

[Dibba]

I've read alot about this case and I am leaning towards an intruder theory. The case with Danielle Van Dam has many similar qualities.

The one thing that has always bugged me is Patsy's claim that she put on the SAME clothes in the morning that she wore the day before. I've always found that hard to believe. The Police badly bungled the crime scene and the case. I can see how many of the leaks to the media have influence people's opinions about this greatly.

There is no clear cut evidence of ongoing abuse of JonBenet, no evidence she wet the bed that night. Patsy's handwriting was not a match. It was rated a 4.5, while John's was a definite no at 5.0.

We don't know for sure who put heart on her hand. What about the newspaper with John's photo encircled with heart?

No where in any of the books I've read does anyone have anything bad to say about this family. The only person Patsy and John would protect is Burke and I don't think a 9 year old did this.

If there was no alarm set, why couldn't the intruder just walk out the front door? Why try to put her in suitcase? Unless intruder didn't want to be seen. The intruder had no car to put her in. Needed suitcase to get her to his house. Intruder is a neighbor.

The ransom note, being so lengthy and stupid, seems to be written almost out of boredom which supports the theory of the intruder being in the house for several hours much like David Westerfield was.

Was there ever any evidence of intruder hanging out at house? I have not read about any.

Why hasn't this person struck again? Maybe they have or maybe they were just fixated on JB. I am also surprised there were not more notes to family or police based on ransom note.

I do go back and forth on intruder vs. family. The family's behavior for years following the case indicate innocence to me.

I would love for Mark Furhman to write about this case. There is not one really good, objective book out there.

 

[sandover]

I would love for Mark Furhman to write about this case. There is not one really good, objective book out there.

Mark Furhman did write about it. Like every sane person who has studied the case in depth, he believes the Ramseys did it.

You can listen to him here: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZuWDj1lSos"]Fuhrman - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Limaes]

sandover,
If Patsy had organized the breakfast bar session then why would she remember to remove the remaining size-12's, but forget to remove direct evidence that JonBenet was awake after arriving home?

You know, Schiller called his book "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town". Just because the R's got away with it, doesn't make it a "perfect" murder. If they weren't wealthy or this happened in another state, both the pineapple and the bloomies would have been there undoing. Along with the RN of course.

 

[Flatlander]

sandover,
It is more probable that Burke was involved than he was not. You can infer this from the fact that the evidence of breakfast bar was left in place!

If Patsy had organized the breakfast bar session then why would she remember to remove the remaining size-12's, but forget to remove direct evidence that JonBenet was awake after arriving home?

Patsy forgot a lot of things. I still believe the wrapping paper from FLS in the wineceller was part of the opened Bloomies. I feel she remembered to put the remaining bloomies either in her purse (which walked out the door with her) or the golf bag that JR so wanted to take with him to bury his daughter in the dead of winter.
But if we look really close I do recall the tea bag never being used.
Also Patsy changes her stories so often you don't know what to believe. She first stated she put JB to bed in the red turtleneck sweater. JR stated he carried JB up those stairs. That is darn near impossible and read dead alseep JB a story?????

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy forgot a lot of things. I still believe the wrapping paper from FLS in the wineceller was part of the opened Bloomies. I feel she remembered to put the remaining bloomies either in her purse (which walked out the door with her) or the golf bag that JR so wanted to take with him to bury his daughter in the dead of winter.
But if we look really close I do recall the tea bag never being used.
Also Patsy changes her stories so often you don't know what to believe. She first stated she put JB to bed in the red turtleneck sweater. JR stated he carried JB up those stairs. That is darn near impossible and read dead alseep JB a story?????

Flatlander,

Patsy forgot a lot of things. I still believe the wrapping paper from FLS in the wineceller was part of the opened Bloomies. I feel she remembered to put the remaining bloomies either in her purse (which walked out the door with her) or the golf bag that JR so wanted to take with him to bury his daughter in the dead of winter.

Speculation regarding the partially opened gifts is ours and may not be correct, although it does seem to be a posssible explanation. The size-12's were likely removed, whether prior to the BPD search or at a later date, who knows, but critically there were none in JonBenet's underwear drawer. Thus blowing a hole in the Ramsey version of events, so much so, the remaining pairs had to be found, otherwise the mythical intruder would be blamed for removing them.

If there is a missing pair of Wednesday size-6 underwear from JonBenet's underwear drawer, possibly also Bloomingdales, then its probable whomever redressed JonBenet was attempting to give some degree of consistency to the idea that JonBenet was placed directly into her bed asleep, but why they ever thought size-12's would do it, is one of those mysteries a crime case flings up?

But if we look really close I do recall the tea bag never being used.
Also Patsy changes her stories so often you don't know what to believe. She first stated she put JB to bed in the red turtleneck sweater. JR stated he carried JB up those stairs. That is darn near impossible and read dead alseep JB a story?????

All which suggests that the Ramsey's had alternative versions regarding JonBenet, and that Patsy forgot which version was current. The red turtleneck sweater version might be true, and the turtleneck may have been used to partially asphyxiate JonBenet, there may have been fluids on it which required washing out?