Members' Theories

[Userid]

jeena,
Yes, I agree with you. So why not?

Either JR thought this one through and arrived at it being too risky, i.e. caught with a dead JonBenet in his car, had to result in a jail sentence?

Or Patsy vetoed it, she could not bring herself to dump JonBenet out in the cold?

Alternatively, the parent(s) found JonBenet too late to dispose of JonBenet outdoors and accomplish all the staging?

I reckon the latter otherwise what was going on for the best part of 5-hours?

.

Or he and PR were too busy staging the crime and simply forgot to cancel the flight (if my previous answer doesn't suffice).

 

[jeena]

You don't think it would have been suspicious on his part to cancel the flight before calling police? If anyone's child was knowingly abducted, the first call they'd need to make is to police.

Maybe, but they had an excuse not to contact LE with the RN forbidding it, and of course they would cancel the flight after reading the RN.

 

[jeena]

jeena,
Yes, I agree with you. So why not?

Either JR thought this one through and arrived at it being too risky, i.e. caught with a dead JonBenet in his car, had to result in a jail sentence?

Or Patsy vetoed it, she could not bring herself to dump JonBenet out in the cold?

Alternatively, the parent(s) found JonBenet too late to dispose of JonBenet outdoors and accomplish all the staging?

I reckon the latter otherwise what was going on for the best part of 5-hours?

.

Or, the Ramsey's didn't kill her.

 

[jeena]

Why did JR and FW have a falling out? Did FW suspect PDI or JDI, and wanted to cut them loose to avoid being accused as an accessory?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Why did JR and FW have a falling out? Did FW suspect PDI or JDI, and wanted to cut them loose to avoid being accused as an accessory?

 

[jeena]

Wow, thanks for the great video! I remember that PW always wanted justice for JBR from the getgo, and the sex ring allegations against FW. Remember when FW urged JR and PR not to go on TV about the case, I was thinking their friendship broke up after that, very early after JBR was killed. I always wondered if FW suspected them from the start and distanced himself from whatever he knows about the case not made public (like JR discovering JBR in the WC before the light was turned on). Speaking of that, I wonder why FW ratted out JR about the light being off instead of keeping quiet about it. I don't remember exactly when FW admitted the light wasn't on or at what point their friendship ended. I always thought the friendly relationship ending between FW and JR was an important part of the case.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Wow, thanks for the great video! I remember that PW always wanted justice for JBR from the getgo, and the sex ring allegations against FW. Remember when FW urged JR and PR not to go on TV about the case, I was thinking their friendship broke up after that, very early after JBR was killed. I always wondered if FW suspected them from the start and distanced himself from whatever he knows about the case not made public (like JR discovering JBR in the WC before the light was turned on). Speaking of that, I wonder why FW ratted out JR about the light being off instead of keeping quiet about it. I don't remember exactly when FW admitted the light wasn't on or at what point their friendship ended. I always thought the friendly relationship ending between FW and JR was an important part of the case.

FW checked the wine cellar earlier and didn’t see anything; yet JR saw JB immediately under the same circumstances.
It is important because the R’s failed to cooperate with BPD. So, I would ask why would a parent not want to cooperate in the murder investigation of their daughter unless they were guilty?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Wow, thanks for the great video! I remember that PW always wanted justice for JBR from the getgo, and the sex ring allegations against FW. Remember when FW urged JR and PR not to go on TV about the case, I was thinking their friendship broke up after that, very early after JBR was killed. I always wondered if FW suspected them from the start and distanced himself from whatever he knows about the case not made public (like JR discovering JBR in the WC before the light was turned on). Speaking of that, I wonder why FW ratted out JR about the light being off instead of keeping quiet about it. I don't remember exactly when FW admitted the light wasn't on or at what point their friendship ended. I always thought the friendly relationship ending between FW and JR was an important part of the case.

It is important because the R’s failed to co-operate with BPD. So, I would ask why would a parent not want to cooperate in the murder investigation of their daughter unless they were guilty?

 

[JohnnyChicago]

I know who is NOT GUILTY......Ed Edwards (wiki: was a convicted American serial killer. Edwards escaped from jail in Akron, Ohio in 1955 when he pushed past a guard and fled across the country, holding up gas stations for money. By 1961, he had landed on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted Fugitives list.)
It Was Him: The Many Murders of Ed Edwards documentary series presents a silly narrative. John Cameron believes Ed Edwards is responsible for many many crimes in which the whole idea is nonsense. Example: Atlanta Child Murders, Jon Benet, Black Dahlia (even though Edwards would have been 14 or so and a child would not be able to dissect Elizabeth's Short's body in such a precise and clean fashion with no medical background. Quite the aggravating documentary series.

 

[reedus23]

It is important because the R’s failed to co-operate with BPD. So, I would ask why would a parent not want to cooperate in the murder investigation of their daughter unless they were guilty?

Probably because they were doing the smart thing and taking the advice of an attorney. My conjecture because I don't recall when they first reached out to someone in the legal profession. I know if they called me, my very first words would be to speak to no one, including and most importantly law enforcement, whether I thought they did it or not. I would then work out arrangements and conditions with law enforcement to conduct those interviews. It's been a long time since I looked at this case, but that is my recollection of exactly what happened and it was near impossible for law enforcement and the attorneys to agree on those terms.

 

[Safeguard]

Or Patsy vetoed it, she could not bring herself to dump JonBenet out in the cold?

Seriously? After all the obscene crap they allegedly did to JB during the alleged 'staging' you think she worried about her getting "dumped in the cold".

 

[Userid]

Maybe, but they had an excuse not to contact LE with the RN forbidding it, and of course they would cancel the flight after reading the RN.

They wanted police to believe that they found the note first thing in the morning -- this was important in their staging. If they had waited to call police until that afternoon, it would have been harder for them to prove that PR found the note first thing in the morning and/or that they themselves didn't write it. The timing was essential in making the ransom note believable -- had they waited, it would not have been believable at all.

 

[UKGuy]

Seriously? After all the obscene crap they allegedly did to JB during the alleged 'staging' you think she worried about her getting "dumped in the cold".

Safeguard,
Who knows, its all speculation here.


If you reckon neither Patsy or John had any objection to dumping JonBenet outdoors, then why did they not do that? Explaining away a dead body in your house is far more difficult than one outside as the latter lends itself to a kidnap scenario.

Some members think because JonnBenet was wrapped in a blanket that this demonstrates what's termed undoing, i.e. a crime-scene red flag left by someone close to JonBenet:

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Excerpt:

The way the cord had been made into a noose—with the stick tied 17 inches from the knot—suggested staging rather than a bona fide attempt to strangle JonBenét. It suggested that the killer was a manipulative person, with the courage to believe that he or she could control the subsequent investigation. In short, everything about the crime indicated an attempt at self-preservation on the part of the killer. On the other hand, the killer cared about the victim and wanted her found. He or she didn’t want JonBenét outside in the dead of winter in the middle of the night. The child had been wrapped in a white blanket, her Barbie nightgown found lying next to her. Such caring and solicitude were not usually associated with a malevolent criminal.

Law and Disorder, John Douglas, page 167

When the body was discovered, a blanket was wrapped around the torso, but the arms and legs were sticking out. This also did not seem like a parental murder to me. Normally, when a parent kills a child, there is some care given to covering the body and making it dignified and protected. We sometimes call this a softening of the appearance in which the body will be found. No matter what kind of parent you are, it's hard to kill your child without some sense of guilt or remorse.

John Ramsey interview, June 1998

LOU SMIT: Again, you had mentioned the fact that the blanket had been wrapped around her almost like, what did you describe it as?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she looked very, like someone had very carefully placed her on the blanket, wrapped the blanket around her to keep her warm.

John Ramsey interview, August 2000, Atlanta

MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. Now, when you went inside to that room, you described the blanket. And you said it was folded like -- I'm just trying to get a mental picture of it. Was it like
RAMSEY: It was like an Indian papoose.
MIKE KANE: Okay.
JOHN RAMSEY: You know, the blanket was under her completely. It was brought up and folded over like that.
MIKE KANE: Folded over, okay.

undoing might arise when the person staging was not the same person who initially assaulted JonBenet?

Why not carry JonBenet on John's private plane, leave her somewhere then claim she is missing?

The thing is the Ramsey's had options, leaving JonBenet in the wine-cellar was never set in stone.


.

 

[UKGuy]

FW checked the wine cellar earlier and didn’t see anything; yet JR saw JB
immediately under the same circumstances.
It is important because the R’s failed to cooperate with BPD. So, I would ask why would a parent not want to cooperate in the murder investigation of their daughter unless they were guilty?

Rain on my Parade,
Also, from memory, did FW not claim John screamed out before he turned the wine-cellar light on?

Its important because John Ramsey's eyesight was weaker than FW's, so weak he had to hire a pilot for his private plane journeys!

.

 

[Safeguard]

Safeguard,
Who knows, its all speculation here.


If you reckon neither Patsy or John had any objection to dumping JonBenet outdoors, then why did they not do that? Explaining away a dead body in your house is far more difficult than one outside as the latter lends itself to a kidnap scenario.

Some members think because JonnBenet was wrapped in a blanket that this demonstrates what's termed undoing, i.e. a crime-scene red flag left by someone close to JonBenet:

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Excerpt:


Law and Disorder, John Douglas, page 167


John Ramsey interview, June 1998


John Ramsey interview, August 2000, Atlanta


undoing might arise when the person staging was not the same person who initially assaulted JonBenet?

Why not carry JonBenet on John's private plane, leave her somewhere then claim she is missing?

The thing is the Ramsey's had options, leaving JonBenet in the wine-cellar was never set in stone.


.

Rain on my Parade,
Also, from memory, did FW not claim John screamed out before he turned the wine-cellar light on?

Its important because John Ramsey's eyesight was weaker than FW's, so weak he had to hire a pilot for his private plane journeys!

.

The thing is the Ramsey's had options, leaving JonBenet in the wine-cellar

Yes. They had far better options. Ones that would not involve doing horrifying things to their little girl's body that make no sense to have done.

Imo had they killed her, they would have wanted to put as much distance between themselves and her remains as possible. They had the means to do just that, instead of staging that macabre scene.

In any case, they've all been cleared.

So people can speculate took the cows come home. And they no doubt will.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Rain on my Parade,
Also, from memory, did FW not claim John screamed out before he turned the wine-cellar light on?

Its important because John Ramsey's eyesight was weaker than FW's, so weak he had to hire a pilot for his private plane journeys!

.

UKGuy,
Your recollection is correct!

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Yes. They had far better options. Ones that would not involve doing horrifying things to their little girl's body that make no sense to have done.

Imo had they killed her, they would have wanted to put as much distance between themselves and her remains as possible. They had the means to do just that, instead of staging that macabre scene.

In any case, they've all been cleared.

So people can speculate took the cows come home. And they no doubt will.

Safeguard,
It makes sense if the perp was her brother and/or possibly a friend. After all BR was over heard by SS talking to DS about the manner of strangulation just a few days after her death.

Well that macabre scene did have PR & JR fiber evidence all wrapped up in it.
DNA evidence from BR& PR; plus JB blood found on the nightgown which was found with the body. And I will remind you that the R’s did/have successfully distanced themselves from JB’s death.

And while we are speculating we must remember this:
The four pages released indicated by the jury felt that both the Ramseys permitted a child to be “unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child’s life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey” and rendered assistance to a person “knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death.”

Truth, til the cows come home.

 

[UKGuy]

Rain on my Parade,
There is stuff in the wine-cellar that should not be there assuming its kidnapping scenario gone wrong.

1. The Pink Barbie Nightgown

2. Burke Ramsey's Long johns, complete with front opening, IMO JonBenet would not be seen dead in these?

3. White Gap Top

4 Patsy's niece's Bloomingdale's size-12's

They all conflict with each other in the context of an abduction, i.e. which kidnapper kills then redresses his victim in a random assortment of dress?

They should not be there, period. The bloodstains, touch-dna, fibers, etc all link the remaining Ramsey's to the crime-scene in a manner a bedroom crime-scene would not.

I've speculated for years that, at the last minute, the parents revised a prior staging to that of a kidnapping by putting JonBenet with the other items, Partially Opened Gifts, etc into the wine-cellar, this is why it does not really add up.

.

 

[10ofRods]

I'm not disagreeing with your overall points, UKGuy, but authors like Mark Fuhrman state that Patsy first said that she changed JonBenét from black velvet pants into Burke's outgrown long johns after John carried her up to her room (Furhman, The Murder Business, p. 111). I have read this several places and I believe it's in one of the early police reports. I see nothing odd about a little girl wearing her brother's hand-me-downs, this wasn't 1950. The oversized panties still remain an issue. Fuhrman's book does not have footnotes, unfortunately, but I do recall reading elsewhere that Patsy took responsibility for the long johns.

I totally agree that the Barbie nightgown is a major clue, unexplained and rarely considered.

Anyway, I thought the same thing about the long johns and started reading about it, in the past couple of days. To me, it's Patsy's fibers (and is there DNA?) within the knots of the garrote that's so compelling as evidence.

It's just so hard to understand how a parent could inflict a major head blow and then go on to finish the child off. I have also been brushing up on pediatric head wounds, and while JonBenét would eventually have died from her head wound, I do believe there was the possibility of saving her (having read some pretty amazing recovery stories for head wounds in the under 8 group - she had some bleeding in her brain that would have eventually killed her, but had she gotten to an ER in time, since her dura was intact and the bleeding was slow, she might very well have made a full or significant recovery)

But whoever dealt the blow...would be in prison. Would be disgraced. To my way of thinking, in all my years of reading about heinous crimes against children, it seems that the head blow comes after the sexual abuse and if the child isn't dead, another blow is dealt - I can't think of another case where the killer switched methods in the middle of the murder.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Rain on my Parade,
There is stuff in the wine-cellar that should not be there assuming its kidnapping scenario gone wrong.

1. The Pink Barbie Nightgown

2. Burke Ramsey's Long johns, complete with front opening, IMO JonBenet would not be seen dead in these?

3. White Gap Top

4 Patsy's niece's Bloomingdale's size-12's

They all conflict with each other in the context of an abduction, i.e. which kidnapper kills then redresses his victim in a random assortment of dress?

They should not be there, period. The bloodstains, touch-dna, fibers, etc all link the remaining Ramsey's to the crime-scene in a manner a bedroom crime-scene would not.

I've speculated for years that, at the last minute, the parents revised a prior staging to that of a kidnapping by putting JonBenet with the other items, Partially Opened Gifts, etc into the wine-cellar, this is why it does not really add up.

.

UKGuy,
I remember early in the investigation a photo of a partially unwrapped holiday Barbie in the wine cellar. I wonder what ever happened to that photo?

Also, what about BR’s knives in the basement? One found in the wine cellar and one on the counter. According to LHP she hid the knife with the diapers in the upstairs laundry cabinet about a month earlier. No one knew where she had hidden it accept herself. The same cabinet the diapers were hanging out of.

The bedroom scene that has me puzzled is her pillow with blood on it. How, why? There were fibers from the sack that contained rope found under JAR, on JB body and her bed. The bathroom red turtleneck sweater on the bathroom counter. I have never read if they tested that sweater for presence of urine? PR first statement was she put JB to bed in that sweater. This has always rang true to me because of the early flight. She wouldn’t have to redress JB the next morning.

I believe BR and JB went down to the basement Christmas night. Alone, if not with DS. The weapon, I believe was a golf club. Whomever hit JB obviously was very angry! I can only imagine one person guilty of the head blow. Side note: in BR own word one of his knives had a special tool on it for making knots.

Thanks again for your input!