Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

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SMK,

I personally think that the evidence that the break-in was staged is weak to the point of being almost nonexistent. However, I also think that if one feels that the evidence is strong, then he or she will also conclude that Sollecito and Knox are probably guilty. The problem for the defense is that it is unlikely that Guede would stage a break-in. Komponisto's article on the subject is worth reading.
 
SMK,

I personally think that the evidence that the break-in was staged is weak to the point of being almost nonexistent. However, I also think that if one feels that the evidence is strong, then he or she will also conclude that Sollecito and Knox are probably guilty. The problem for the defense is that it is unlikely that Guede would stage a break-in. Komponisto's article on the subject is worth reading.
Thanks for that link! :) It is unlikely, though not impossible, that Guede would stage; but far more likely that the scene was not in fact staged...as you yourself state...

this part of K's post is particularly convincing:

Additionally, the fragments of broken glass were scattered in a homogeneous manner on the internal and external windowsill, without any noticeable displacement and without any piece of glass being found on the surface below the window. This circumstance...rules out the possibility that the stone was thrown from outside the house to allow access inside via the window after the glass was broken. The climber, in leaning his hands and then his feet or knees on the windowsill, would have caused some of the glass to fall, or at least would have had to move some of the pieces lest they form a trap and cause injury. However, no piece of glass was found under the window and no sign of injury was discovered on the glass found in Romanelli's room.

(The question to ask, when confronted with an argument like this, is:"rules out" with what confidence? If Massei and Cristiani think this is strong evidence against the hypothesis that the stone was thrown from outside the house, then that means they have a model that makes highly specific predictions about the behavior of glass fragments when a stone is thrown from inside, versus when it is thrown from outside. Predictions which can be tested(4). This is one reason why I advocate using numbers in arguments; if Massei and Cristiani had been required to think carefully enough to give a number, that would have forced them to examine their assumptions more critically, rather than stopping on plausible-sounding arguments consistent with their already-arrived-at bottom line.)
The impression one gets is that Massei and Cristiani thought, on some level, that all they needed to do was make the fake-burglary hypothesis sound coherent -- and that if they did so, that would count as a few points against Knox and Sollecito. They could then do the same thing with regard to the other pieces of evidence in the case, each time coming up with an explanation of the facts in terms of an assumption that Knox and Sollecito are guilty, and each time thereby scoring a few more points against them -- points which would presumably add up to a substantial number by the end of the report.
But, of course, the mathematics of probability theory don't work that way. It's not enough for a hypothesis, such as that the apparent burglary in Filomena Romanelli's room was staged, to merely be able to explain the data; it must do so better than its negation. And, in the absence of the assumption that Knox and Sollecito are guilty -- if we're presuming them to be innocent, as the law requires, or assigning a tiny prior probability to their guilt, as epistemic rationality requires -- this contest is rigged. The standards for "explaining well" that the fake-burglary hypothesis has to meet in order to be taken seriously are much higher than those that its negation has to meet, because of the dependence relation that exists between the fake-burglary question and the murder question. Any hypothesis that requires the assumption that Knox and Sollecito are guilty of murder inherits the full "explanatory inefficiency penalty" (i.e. prior improbability) of the latter proposition.
 
Of course he would say that. That is his job to make sure that the conviction is beyond all reasonable doubt. That is just simple basics. I can't make the jump to him having reasonable doubt about anything. Or should I now conclude that he has no reasonable doubt about other pieces of evidence where he didn't request any additional info? That is just guess work. He is making sure he has enough information to come to the right conclusions. That is all. The conclusions come later.

You say "That is his job to make sure that the conviction is beyond all reasonable doubt," as if any judge would do the same... but Massei didn't grant independent review of the DNA evidence. And that's the difference being pointed out between these two judges. As far as the other evidence, I believe it's been stated before that if all the current evidence under review falls apart (as it has been), then he will grant review of other pieces as well.
 
BBM..you can't be serious? The DNA evidence was accepted despite contamination because he admitted he was there? It that your point? Of course, contamination does not lose its value. Never! Rudy's DNA evidence is used against him to prove his participation in the sexual assault and the murder. That is pretty clear I thought.

Contrary to what was stated above by Rose, I showed that contamination was an argument in Rudy's trials. Had there been contamination then the Court must rule the DNA evidence inadmissible. There is no way they can say 'oh, the evidence is contaminated but we will admit the evidence anyway since he admits he was there'. Contamination means the DNA evidence is inadmissible. It will never lose any meaning. That is just plain silly.

SMK didn't SAY that's why it wasn't accepted. She said it loses its meaning in light of the fact that RG still asserts that he was there on a date and did in fact have some sort of sexual contact with MK and did in fact take a dump in the bathroom. And her statement is very serious. No matter the reason they accepted or rejected the contamination claim, it's still a dumb argument in light of RG's assertions.
 
I don't think they particularly addressed it unless it was in those missing pages. My conclusion is simply based on that they would have if they had come to the conclusion that any contamination or mishandling would have occurred.

Okay, but you said twice that it was in the supreme court documents. Now you are saying that they didn't address it -- unless it's in the missing pages?

No, it wasn't contaminated otherwise some of his evidence would have been excluded. That was actually my point. I am not really drawing any conclusions to the AK and RS appeal since indeed that is a different trial and now there is the C&V report. Still, it did come up and the Supreme Court concluded the evidence to be reliable. Everyone can think of it whatever they want

Originally Posted by sherlockh
*Snipped* They did argue contamination and unprofessional behavior. The argument was not accepted by the Supreme Court.
 
smk,

There is plenty of DNA (probably from intestinal epithelial cells) in fecal matter, but bacterial and/or human digestive enzymes called nucleases tend to degrade it rather quickly. Therefore, it is difficult to use. A blanket statement that it can never be used is an overstatement, IMO.

More generally, I think you can throw out all of the DNA evidence if you like, but with Guede's bloody handprint, there is still enough evidence left to convict him.

If it's an overstatement, I made it, not SMK, in regards to what i read about this case, and I read that you can't get DNA from fecal. If you somehow can, I don't mind the correction; however, they got the DNA from the tissue, NOT the doo-doo.

A sample of feces and two pieces of toilet paper were taken from the toilet in the larger bathroom. The paper yielded the profile of Rudy Hermann Guede, both on total DNA testing and on testing for the Y chromosome alone. The feces gave no result either by DNA analysis or by Y chromosome analysis.
MOT page 192........

Concerning the negative result on the feces, Dr. Stefanoni testified that excremental material is ill-suited to genetic analysis because [199] of the presence of large numbers of bacteria which fragment the DNA and thus destroy it.

Samples were taken from the toilet paper because this paper, used in wiping, is much likelier to contain epithelial cells, and they did indeed yield the genetic profile of Rudy Guede.

I do not know why I listened to PS about anything, but anyways....

I added the quote for SMK, because my original point was the article she asked me about had misconceptions in it.

here's the point I was refuting:

5. The prosecution has purposely omitted its importance as to how quickly the DNA identification of Rudy Guede was actually obtained. To be clear, the feces are the single most abundant source of Rudy’s pure DNA in the entire case! It is the fastest and easiest to test, and the most reliable due to the sheer amount of pure DNA that was available for testing!

To me, the writer is saying they identified RG through his Doo. They did not. It was his finger prints in the database.
 
Thanks for that link! :) It is unlikely, though not impossible, that Guede would stage; but far more likely that the scene was not in fact staged...as you yourself state...

this part of K's post is particularly convincing:

I don't know about math, but how about RG just opened the window pane where there was NO broken glass, the one that would be on his left, and entered there instead of entering on the right side where the rock had broken glass everywhere?In the picture below, why couldn't he have just entered where the "O" is sitting?


filomenaroom__36_.jpg



In the pic below, we see where the glass is indicated by the circles, so it is possible that the glass on the floor riht in front of the window could have come from RG climbing inside.

hendry9.jpg
 
smk,

There is plenty of DNA (probably from intestinal epithelial cells) in fecal matter, but bacterial and/or human digestive enzymes called nucleases tend to degrade it rather quickly. Therefore, it is difficult to use. A blanket statement that it can never be used is an overstatement, IMO.

More generally, I think you can throw out all of the DNA evidence if you like, but with Guede's bloody handprint, there is still enough evidence left to convict him.

:welcome:

hands you a designer straight jacket for this thread :innocent:
 
I've only seen a few luminol pictures over the years, I generally chose not to view them. I have to say though that I've never seen any that look as gloopy/globby/puddely for lack of better words (if these are even real words). Yes, I do see the luminol spatters on the techs boots and the ruler which screams to me contamination of the crime scene.

There also appears to be something lumpy a few inches lower than the straight ruler, and I can't make out what it is. It sorta looks like a brown cigarette butt, or small cat/dog poop, I dunno, just guessing here. Any thoughts?

:welcome:

You will also require a straight jacket :) they are designer
 
So, September 5 is the next big day ... Monday. Maresca, who has recently been heavily criticised, will have a chance to cross examine the witnesses ... should be interesting. Then we have to wait for the decision.

Personally, I think the question of contamination is weak, particularly because there were 6 and 12 day intervals between the testing of the knife or bra clasp and the last related use of the machines. Contamination in the field is ruled out for the knife and the DNA on the blade is a match to Meredith ... if it wasn't contaminated in the field and it wasn't contaminated in the lab, then it wasn't contaminated and the DNA match on the blade means the knife was in contact with Meredith during the murder.

Specific to the knife there were not 6 - 12 days between the analysis as Stephanoni testified herself that it was tested during the course of many items is a laboaratory that she again states never has contamination of which I know of no laboratory that would ever make such a claim

"Record of the Court of Assizes hearing on 23/05/09, pages 29-30: “Well, the knife was tested as one item in the course of 50 samples attributed to the victim, some were before the tests on the knife naturally, and others after, so of these 50…I don’t know the knife was placed, now I don’t know, at a fourth, a third of this series of tests, but in any case even if the knife was analyzed at the end of these 50, 60 samples, in any case this wouldn’t affect the validity of the results, because each sample is tested separately, it is absolutely impossible to mix one sample with another, also because the Kercher file is just one of many files we dealt with simultaneously in the laboratory, it’s not as if the Scientific Police Service stopped to deal with the Kercher file…”)

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/...tic-tests-conducted-by-the-scientific-police/
 
You say "That is his job to make sure that the conviction is beyond all reasonable doubt," as if any judge would do the same... but Massei didn't grant independent review of the DNA evidence. And that's the difference being pointed out between these two judges. As far as the other evidence, I believe it's been stated before that if all the current evidence under review falls apart (as it has been), then he will grant review of other pieces as well.
Hellman is indeed not Massei. I can't deny that :) Also, this is an appeal so maybe it is then more likely that review requests will be granted? I am not sure how that works in Italy. Anyway, as far as reviewing other pieces of evidence goes, the schedule now seems set for the month so I am not sure how they would fit that in.
http://twitter.com/#!/BLNadeau
 
SMK,

I personally think that the evidence that the break-in was staged is weak to the point of being almost nonexistent. However, I also think that if one feels that the evidence is strong, then he or she will also conclude that Sollecito and Knox are probably guilty. The problem for the defense is that it is unlikely that Guede would stage a break-in. Komponisto's article on the subject is worth reading.

It's really not conceivable that Guede would stage a break-in. It's also likely that if Guede was going to break into the cottage, he would do what was done by two others after the murder and what he did at the lawyer's office: climb over the balcony and enter through the kitchen window. The broken glass on top of the ransacked items pretty much proves that first someone was in the room and ransacked the closet, and then the window was broken ... which leaves only one conclusion: the break in was staged.
 
otto,

Which clothes, exactly, did Filomena say had glass on them? Her testimony to the effect that she was gnerally a neat person does not obviate the possibility that she left some clothes lying around. Look how crowded with objects her desk is; I think she just had more stuff than storage space. Also, she disturbed the room herself when she went back to fetch her computer. Her computer had glass on it as well, which she talked about brushing off, IIRC.

How would Rudi get through the kitchen window?
 
Ah, that explains it, thanks! :) Yes, and as he does admit to being there and to being sexual with the victim, it would seem DNA does in fact lose its importance in terms of contamination leading to eliminating him as a suspect, which is what i had conveyed and sherlock objected to.
I don't know how many times I have read that 'Rudy's DNA was all over the room' as some kind of proof that he committed the murder by himself. So now it is not important anymore? Ok then :waitasec:

Mishandling and contamination are major points in the current appeal. I don't see how you can just brush aside the Supreme Courts ruling in Rudy's case. Same crime scene, same investigation team. I see a parallel. On the other hand, Rudy's defense team did not have the C&V report, so maybe that will make a difference. We will see :)
 
It's really not conceivable that Guede would stage a break-in. It's also likely that if Guede was going to break into the cottage, he would do what was done by two others after the murder and what he did at the lawyer's office: climb over the balcony and enter through the kitchen window. The broken glass on top of the ransacked items pretty much proves that first someone was in the room and ransacked the closet, and then the window was broken ... which leaves only one conclusion: the break in was staged.

Why? There was no evidence presented that supported a staged break-in from the prosecution can you present this?
 
otto,

Which clothes, exactly, did Filomena say had glass on them? Her testimony to the effect that she was gnerally a neat person does not obviate the possibility that she left some clothes lying around. Look how crowded with objects her desk is; I think she just had more stuff than storage space. Also, she disturbed the room herself when she went back to fetch her computer. Her computer had glass on it as well, which she talked about brushing off, IIRC.

How would Rudi get through the kitchen window?

I would as well love to know. There are no supporting documentation via photographs etc. which support this conclusion. We simply have hearsay yet nothing was forensically evaluated. Where is the evidence?
 
I don't know how many times I have read that 'Rudy's DNA was all over the room' as some kind of proof that he committed the murder by himself. So now it is not important anymore? Ok then :waitasec:

Mishandling and contamination are major points in the current appeal. I don't see how you can just brush aside the Supreme Courts ruling in Rudy's case. Same crime scene, same investigation team. I see a parallel. On the other hand, Rudy's defense team did not have the C&V report, so maybe that will make a difference. We will see :)

The basic problem with this theory is simply this. Independent experts were asked to evaluate the DNA for RS and AK (which I was exteremely concerned with). Their report stated not a luke warm evaluation but a critical evaluation of every step of the analyisis which went beyond the scope of just the AK and RS scope which was mandated by the judge. The evaluations went beyond one trial but put the entire Italian forensics under scrutiny. I don't believe the scope or ramifications of what the C&V evaluations presented pertain to just one trial. What their conclusions revealed was a process which seemed to encompass a number of conclusions which normally would be automatically accepted by the Courts.

This is no longer about AK and RS but the scope and reprercusions could very well be seen throughout the Italian judicial system.

This is far bigger than just the RS and AK appeals. It could potentially affect a number of previous/future rulings
 
otto,

Which clothes, exactly, did Filomena say had glass on them? Her testimony to the effect that she was gnerally a neat person does not obviate the possibility that she left some clothes lying around. Look how crowded with objects her desk is; I think she just had more stuff than storage space. Also, she disturbed the room herself when she went back to fetch her computer. Her computer had glass on it as well, which she talked about brushing off, IIRC.

How would Rudi get through the kitchen window?

Does this mean the testimony of one individual over-rides the photograph evidence?
 
I don't know how many times I have read that 'Rudy's DNA was all over the room' as some kind of proof that he committed the murder by himself. So now it is not important anymore? Ok then :waitasec:

Mishandling and contamination are major points in the current appeal. I don't see how you can just brush aside the Supreme Courts ruling in Rudy's case. Same crime scene, same investigation team. I see a parallel. On the other hand, Rudy's defense team did not have the C&V report, so maybe that will make a difference. We will see :)

This is the first time an independant evaluation was ordered by the Court for this laboratory. Are you stating that indepenent evaluation should not pertain to other cases? Or should we just accept what information has been handed to us via the PLE? Do you have any reliable independent experts which back the forensic analysis that Stephanoni produced?

Let me remind you that not only if a sample such as LCN DNA is questioned so must the negative controls.

This is very important not only the samples must be done properly but also the the control samples as well must be as well. Do we have any evidence that the control samples were (if there indeed where ones) have been as well ? From the documentation I have reviewed not only did they try to introduce invalid controls but there is no idication that these were amplified accordingly
 
It's really not conceivable that Guede would stage a break-in. It's also likely that if Guede was going to break into the cottage, he would do what was done by two others after the murder and what he did at the lawyer's office: climb over the balcony and enter through the kitchen window. The broken glass on top of the ransacked items pretty much proves that first someone was in the room and ransacked the closet, and then the window was broken ... which leaves only one conclusion: the break in was staged.

I would love to hear your intrepretation
 
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