Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #18

[Sonata]

If you're suggesting that the murderer was dripping blood, no, I don't believe that this was the case. Someone appears to have stepped in the blood with a bare foot, and then somehow floated over to the bath mat and left a bloody print on the mat. There are no prints leading to the mat or away from it, and no dripping blood to and from the mat. The dripping blood was over the sink, and that belongs to Knox ... she speculated that her newly pierced ears were bleeding, but then maybe they weren't - perhaps confused imaginings, as usual.

I think there are crossed lines here. Nobody is suggesting that the murderer was bleeding. What is suggested is that in washing off the victim's blood, a drop of diluted blood could easily fall onto the mat.

 

[otto]

Everything you ever wanted to know about Luminol can be found in this document. I'll make comments on it later, but I'm sure that the answer to the current question of ideal timing is in there.

http://www.cbdiai.org/Articles/grispino_8-91.pdf

Thanks. Here it is (page 5): the longer the better. Therefore, any criticism regarding the use of luminol 6 weeks after the murder is misplaced.

"... dried and decomposed blood ellicited a stronger and longer lasting luminol reaction than fresh blood."

http://www.cbdiai.org/Articles/grispino_8-91.pdf

 

[otto]

I think there are crossed lines here. Nobody is suggesting that the murderer was bleeding. What is suggested is that in washing off the victim's blood, a drop of diluted blood could easily fall onto the mat.

... and that drop conveniently landed exactly at the point of the big toe, thus making the print a match to Sollecito? I doubt it. The print is too wide for Guede's foot, so I suppose there had to be drops of blood falling all along the outside of the foot too?

 

[Sonata]

... and that drop conveniently landed exactly at the point of the big toe, thus making the print a match to Sollecito? I doubt it. The print is too wide for Guede's foot, so I suppose there had to be drops of blood falling all along the outside of the foot too?

Sorry I don't understand... I never said it was a match for either Sollecito or Guede but you seem to be suggesting I did..

I don't think it is convenient the drop landing there, quite the opposite in fact as it makes it impossible to match either print. It is just as likely that a drop would land there as anywhere else.

 

[otto]

Sorry I don't understand... I never said it was a match for either Sollecito or Guede but you seem to be suggesting I did..

I don't think it is convenient the drop landing there, quite the opposite in fact as it makes it impossible to match either print. It is just as likely that a drop would land there as anywhere else.

I have said that it is clearly not a match to Guede. If we have to speculate that drops of blood from an unknown origin fell onto the print and altered the shape, then we have to accept that those drops fell exactly on the big toe and the outside of the foot to change the bloody print such that it no longer resembles Guede's print, but now resembles Sollecito's print. Does that not seem like turning one's self into a pretzel in order to attempt to attribute the print to Guede? It reminds me of the argument that Knox and Sollecito didn't lie about the time of dinner when they said they ate at 9:30, 10 and 11, instead they ate dinner three times that evening. There comes a time when the fabricated explanations become so farfetched that one sits back and questions whether the agenda is to seek the truth or to distort it.

 

[Sonata]

I have said that it is clearly not a match to Guede. If we have to speculate that drops of blood from an unknown origin fell onto the print and altered the shape, then we have to accept that those drops fell exactly on the big toe and the outside of the foot to change the bloody print such that it no longer resembles Guede's print, but now resembles Sollecito's print.

I don't get why the blood drops on the outside of the foot is mentioned. Nobody has said that - it is absurd, surely?!

The size differences can be addressed by the fact that the bathmat is an absorbent and non-flat surface so distortion of size is pretty much inevitable. The extra bobble by the toe has to involve something else unless we are arguing that it belongs to someone else altogether, which I personally think holds no water.

 

[Monzoo]

... and that drop conveniently landed exactly at the point of the big toe, thus making the print a match to Sollecito? I doubt it. The print is too wide for Guede's foot, so I suppose there had to be drops of blood falling all along the outside of the foot too?

Otto,
Have you even seen a photo of the entire bathmat? There is more than just the footprint apparently made in blood. There is the footprint, and at least two other splotched areas.

I also think that the spot of blood that we are discussing is not in a place that makes it consistent with RS' large toe. We appear to differ in our interpretation.

I would argue that the print cannot be definitively tied to anyone. I certainly wouldn't convict someeone on the basis that it "might" match. Which is honestly the most that the prosecution experts could say -- compatible with.

 

[Sonata]

Otto,
Have you even seen a photo of the entire bathmat? There is more than just the footprint apparently made in blood. There is the footprint, and at least two other splotched areas.

I also think that the spot of blood that we are discussing is not in a place that makes it consistent with RS' large toe. We appear to differ in our interpretation.

I would argue that the print cannot be definitively tied to anyone. I certainly wouldn't convict someeone on the basis that it "might" match. Which is honestly the most that the prosecution experts could say -- compatible with.

Agreed. As I have said before (though evidently not clearly enough) I do not think this is a match for either suspect.

What I have said is:

-The blob next to the big toe doesn't look like part of the print to me
-Said blob is probably a drip from the washing of the victim's blood from the perp's body
-The general shape of the foot looks MORE like RG than RS to me

What I have not said:
- The print is RGs
- The print cannot possibly belong to any of the 3 suspects
- The blob is made in the blood of the perp

 

[otto]

I don't get why the blood drops on the outside of the foot is mentioned. Nobody has said that - it is absurd, surely?!

The size differences can be addressed by the fact that the bathmat is an absorbent and non-flat surface so distortion of size is pretty much inevitable. The extra bobble by the toe has to involve something else unless we are arguing that it belongs to someone else altogether, which I personally think holds no water.

There are no carefully place drops of blood that distort the bloody print so much that we should believe that it is Guede's print with blood drops changing the print to make it appear too wide and with a hammer toe.

 

[Sonata]

There are no carefully place drops of blood that distort the bloody print so much that we should believe that it is Guede's print with blood drops changing the print to make it appear too wide and with a hammer toe.

:waitasec: I didn't follow that sentence...

Sorry - I have genuinely read this 10 times now and I don't understand what is being said - can you check over it and make sure you typed what you intended?

 

[Sonata]

There are no carefully place drops of blood that distort the bloody print so much that we should believe that it is Guede's print with blood drops changing the print to make it appear too wide and with a hammer toe.

Ah ok, I think I've got it now (sorry, long hours at work today).

As I said before, nobody is saying anything about blood drops widening the print nor is anyone saying that the drop makes the print look like Sollecito's.

And also, LOL, nobody is saying anything about drops being carefully placed! Though I assume you are joking about that.

 

[otto]

Otto,
Have you even seen a photo of the entire bathmat? There is more than just the footprint apparently made in blood. There is the footprint, and at least two other splotched areas.

I also think that the spot of blood that we are discussing is not in a place that makes it consistent with RS' large toe. We appear to differ in our interpretation.

I would argue that the print cannot be definitively tied to anyone. I certainly wouldn't convict someeone on the basis that it "might" match. Which is honestly the most that the prosecution experts could say -- compatible with.

After following this case for a few years, I think it's safe to assume I've seen the bath mat.

I don't think Sollecito was convicted on the basis of the bloody print on the bath mat being compatible with his footprint. I also don't think that the photoshop monkey business that's been done to the prints can be used to argue that the print is a match to Guede. Clearly the print is too narrow for Guede, and the hammer toe in the blood is compatible to the hammer toe on Sollecito's foot.

Arguing footprints is like arguing stomach contents and weapons. All of it is less than conclusive, but when added to other evidence it begins to form a picture of the crime.

 

[otto]

:waitasec: I didn't follow that sentence...

Sorry - I have genuinely read this 10 times now and I don't understand what is being said - can you check over it and make sure you typed what you intended?

Quite right ... must be time for me to walk away from the computer and rearrange my words.

 

[Sonata]

Quite right ... must be time for me to walk away from the computer and rearrange my words.

I think I'm getting bleary eyed to be fair... time for me to leave the office. My comprehension skills are obviously suffering...

 

[Sonata]

After following this case for a few years, I think it's safe to assume I've seen the bath mat.

I don't think Sollecito was convicted on the basis of the bloody print on the bath mat being compatible with his footprint. I also don't think that the photoshop monkey business that's been done to the prints can be used to argue that the print is a match to Guede. Clearly the print is too narrow for Guede, and the hammer toe in the blood is compatible to the hammer toe on Sollecito's foot.

Arguing footprints is like arguing stomach contents and weapons. All of it is less than conclusive, but when added to other evidence it begins to form a picture of the crime.

Otto, do you have a version of that picture without the luminol projection? Or preferably one with and one without? I'd like to look at the other blobs on it... they look a little like toes, but it seems weird that there'd be random toes over it.

Although, having said that, if the perp were tip-toeing to avoid prints, and there was only blood on the big toe (which seems like the case on the full print) that might explain those blotches.

 

[otto]

Otto, do you have a version of that picture without the luminol projection? Or preferably one with and one without? I'd like to look at the other blobs on it... they look a little like toes, but it seems weird that there'd be random toes over it.

Although, having said that, if the perp were tip-toeing to avoid prints, and there was only blood on the big toe (which seems like the case on the full print) that might explain those blotches.

Here is the bath matt original

Here is the bath matt altered with photoshop using "curves" to isolate color.

 

[trillian]

It seems rather obvious that the bloody footprint on the bath mat is not a match to Guede. Therefore, someone else made that footprint.

It doesnt seem that Guedes print is lined up properly here. I would line it up closer to the right, maybe even past it, where the looped area of the bathmat is because that would not spread the blood out as easily. It looks to me that the print on the left side would spread out more easily, making it wider on that side, as it contains a tightly woven area, and no fluffy loops to absorb.

Did they even bring that up in any analysis or did they just think the blood would spread evenly as if you put ink evenly on your foot and onto a homogenous flat piece of paper?

They should have tried to find a mat just like it and tried it out. Maybe they did? It would be impossible to replicate exactly the conditions, or the amounts blood on each part of the foot, but at least you would know how the liquid behaved as it hit the mat.

 

[Malkmus]

After following this case for a few years, I think it's safe to assume I've seen the bath mat.

I don't think Sollecito was convicted on the basis of the bloody print on the bath mat being compatible with his footprint. I also don't think that the photoshop monkey business that's been done to the prints can be used to argue that the print is a match to Guede. Clearly the print is too narrow for Guede, and the hammer toe in the blood is compatible to the hammer toe on Sollecito's foot.

Arguing footprints is like arguing stomach contents and weapons. All of it is less than conclusive, but when added to other evidence it begins to form a picture of the crime.

Sollecito's big toe is mushroom-shaped. Why isn't the one on the mat as well if it's his?

 

[SMK]

Sollecito's big toe is mushroom-shaped. Why isn't the one on the mat as well if it's his?

Because, as is obvious, it is not his, but Guede's.

 

[Allusonz]

After following this case for a few years, I think it's safe to assume I've seen the bath mat.

I don't think Sollecito was convicted on the basis of the bloody print on the bath mat being compatible with his footprint. I also don't think that the photoshop monkey business that's been done to the prints can be used to argue that the print is a match to Guede. Clearly the print is too narrow for Guede, and the hammer toe in the blood is compatible to the hammer toe on Sollecito's foot.

Arguing footprints is like arguing stomach contents and weapons. All of it is less than conclusive, but when added to other evidence it begins to form a picture of the crime.

I am very perplexed by this photo. My understanding is that luminol was not used in the bathroom or on the bathmat. Can you explain this? I as well ask as there have been a number of references made with respect to photoshopping of pictures