Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #18

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If he didn't come in the window, then why'd he stage the break-in? :p

Or maybe it was Gasp just a real break in?

I am still troubled by Rep 198 and 199. These are the two pieces of evidence that show a presumed blood substance and hair on the window (that was broken into). Massei just pretty much ignores this evidence because no DNA profile came up and the blood test was negative. Much like most of these Luminol prints. The appeal points out that further testing could have been done on the hair (this one is hair and not wool-the stage the hair was in is given in the test) using a different technique and amazingly, <Dr Steffi decided not to turn up the dial on either one of these samples.
 

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It's purpose is for what I told you...as a presumptive blood test.

Which FBI agent that 'oughta know' would that be? That would be your Steve Moore, wouldn't it? This Steve Moore: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...us_cop_steve_moore_serially_mischar/#comments

Do you have another FBI agent? One that knows jack about the case...and is honest?

John Douglas? You're going to have to accept something here you might not want to, and embarrassed the hell out of me when I realized it myself, but to a professional investigator with the data now available it's so obvious Amanda and Raffaele are innocent, they don't have to memorize all the silly little crap Mignini and Stefanoni devised to confuse us all. Paul Ciolino, who may be more responsible for ending implementation of the death penalty in Illinois than any other single person due to his investigative prowess, figured it out just by talking to Giobbi about the 'evidence' and poking around the neighborhood.

They will use a range of different indicators to look for the presence of blood. Some work better in different environments. TMB is only used in the presence of visible blood (or what appears to be visible blood). That's because it's not a spray test where you just spray it all over the place and it lights whatever up. Instead, you have to swab the sample then stick it in a receptor jar containing the TMB and it changes colour depending. Naturally, you have to see the sample you're swabbing to be able to do that and it isn't practical to crawl along swabbing a whole floor with a cotton bud looking for invisible traces. Luminol is used to detect that which you can't see, whilst TMB is used on that which you can.

You're starting to get it, but you have to take into account why the FBI and why ILE used them anyway. It's quite simple and eminently logical, and saves the lab from wasting their time on the hundreds of different things commonly found in households that light up luminol, all of which are in play if you're arguing for diluted blood, as that's not going to hit the high notes undiluted blood does.
 
The last time I looked, there was a unanimous guilty verdict by 8 judges after an 11 month trial. Don't be clinging to the idea that just because there's an appeal it completely invalidates that trial and verdict and that the prosecution have to present and prove their case all over again. It is up to the defence to change the status quo and the status quo is that Knox and Sollecito stand guilty. They have to challenge what the prosecution has already presented and demonstrated. If you think what Hellman said at the start of the appeal changes that fact, you're in for a shock.

Nope, <modsnip>. Hellman is the judge and not you, after all. What he said counts and was amply demonstrated by his orders for new testimony and independent expert testing.

Raffaele is about to go free, and it is you that are in for a shock.
 
Or maybe it was Gasp just a real break in?

I am still troubled by Rep 198 and 199. These are the two pieces of evidence that show a presumed blood substance and hair on the window (that was broken into). Massei just pretty much ignores this evidence because no DNA profile came up and the blood test was negative. Much like most of these Luminol prints. The appeal points out that further testing could have been done on the hair (this one is hair and not wool-the stage the hair was in is given in the test) using a different technique and amazingly, <Dr Steffi decided not to turn up the dial on either one of these samples.

It makes me wonder if there's anything that could be done by an independent lab after the acquittal on pieces of evidence like this and the putative seminal stain. If there's roots in that hair they might just find DNA if they employ proper LT-DNA protocols.
 
Nope, <modsnip>. Hellman is the judge and not you, after all. What he said counts and was amply demonstrated by his orders for new testimony and independent expert testing.

Raffaele is about to go free, and it is you that are in for a shock.

I really hope you are right.
 
But that doesn't make it probable without evidence and rational argument. Let me put my bunny suit on and I'll give you a theory of how you're potentially involved in this murder. Nothing personal, I've done it for myself as well, it just illustrates what one can do with a nasty suspicious mind and being able to turn 'possibles' into 'probables' without anything more than than psychobabble and sophistry for the evidence and argument stage.



What partial clean-up? Is there a lamp in the future of this argument? How can there be a clean up when there's bloody shoeprints and invisible 'footprints' discovered with luminol in the hall, bloody shoeprints all over the murder room, and things like bloody handprints, putative seminal stains and blood all over the murder room that might well have contained DNA of anyone else being involved in the assault? I'll allow that Rudy tried some half-hearted sopping up with towels because there's evidence of that, but you don't get anywhere without evidence with me, unless you have a really good rational argument. This does not mean accounting for one improbability by inventing another implausibility! :)



And it was blown completely out of the water! The original case was exposed through the Massei Report, the appeals documents just wasted the rest of it away, to those of rational cognition. Think of what you're reduced to arguing? It would be easier to make a case Rudy was innocent than Amanda and Raffaele are guilty, wouldn't it?

However, the burden of proof is not reversed for the appeal, it's still innocent until proven guilty and beyond a reasonable doubt. The trial of the first instance for strategic and historical reasons often doesn't reflect this it appears.



That wasn't a scratch, it was a hickey, not a bleeder. The ear wasn't bleeding anymore either, otherwise the police would have noted that when they did their examination. They take those extremely seriously in Italy, if you've followed Frank's blog you know they have records from way back and they go looking for evidence of wounds to solve other cases, and occasionally exonerate the innocent. If there's a murder, they--like Steve Moore--know that odds are there will be evidence of such on the attacker; like there is on Rudy for instance on his hand.

You've seen the crime scene photos, that bathroom looked clean by college student standards even with the mess made by Rudy. Before that you could barely see the blood on the tap. Bright lights and a close up were needed to make it apparent, and it wasn't that much anyway. It could easily be missed, and obviously was, or she didn't care that much. Don't you contend she was a slob anyway? Thus she'd have had lower standards of cleanliness than someone expecting a white-globe inspection.



The evidence proves at some point Rudy went from the murder room to the front door while the bloody shoeprints faded to nothingness along the way. Rudy's lack of DNA in the bathroom is interesting, but as Massei points out in the passage I quoted above to Sherlock, not improbable. He was also cleaning thus less likely to leave DNA. It's not like he was involved in a death struggle in the bathroom! I will allow there might have been a minor clean-up here, though it's not necessary.

If he didn't come in the window, then why'd he stage the break-in? :p


<modsnip>

The partial clean-up as described by Judge Massei in his sentencing report...and that as described by Judge Micheli un his. That partial clean-up.

The lamp...Amanda put her lamp in Meredith's room, most likely to aid with the partial clean-up. Again, this is in the Massei Report.

There may have been many points that were cleaned in Meredith's room and that can't be detected because the amount of blood in there made luminol use impractical.

<modsnip>?



The mark on Amanda's neck was not a 'hickey', not the witnesses who saw said it wasn't a 'hickey'. <modsnip>. I'll go with the witnesses.

Guede wasn't cleaning. He left straight away. And he didn't come in through the window, he came in through the front door. Amanda Knox let him in.
 
I didn't say they were. I was responding to what you said:



Amazingly, Stefanoni couldn't come up with a good Italian reference for her presentation, instead using the one from the FBI. I sure would love to see the Italian recommendations and protocols of evidence collection and a comparison to those put forward by the FBI. I doubt we would see much difference.

Do you think they would differ significantly?



She could just as easily have used documentation from somewhere else. She just happened to use that.

Have you considered, that Dr Stefanoni was using FBI data, to counter the fact that C & V had tried to use FBI data to condemn her work?
 
And strangely enough, that 'taking new evidence' did not involve the judge requesting that the prosecution present and prove their whole case all over again. Indeed, it has been to take the requests of the defence in order so that they can rebut the case against them that has already been proven.

The court did not say it did not share the previous court's opinion on reasonable doubt (and certainly wasn't saying it did not believe the previous court had not found the case beyond a reasonable doubt), it said it was reserving judgement, which is a rather different thing. That is so the case is affirmed, beyond a reasonable doubt. The case will ultimately be judged on the case presented by the prosecution in the main trial and the rebuttals to that case made in the appeal by the defence.

<modsnip>:

http://www.oggi.it/direttore/editoriale/2010/12/22/il-ragionevole-dubbio/

http://www.umbria24.it/mez-si-riapr...uove-perizie-su-coltello-e-gancetto/9755.html

http://www.inviatospeciale.com/2010/12/svolta-nel-processo-per-lomicidio-di-meredith-kercher/

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3DCorte%2Bd%2527Assise%2Bd%2527Appello%2Bdi%2BPerugia%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=it&u=http://www.kronaka.it/2010/12/19/processo-di-perugia-andare-oltre-ogni-ragionevole-dubbio/&usg=ALkJrhg7tQBTAYsW16YsLD5xFERwa7tH-A

Respect for the rule laid down in Article 533 (imposition of sentence only if the defendant is guilty of the offense complained of beyond a reasonable doubt) does not fully share the decisions of the Court of 'Assizes of the first degree
 
Here is the quote from that first link (Google translation)

Here are the words written by Claudio Pratillo Hellmann, president of the Assize Court of Appeals: "The provisions of Article 533 of the Code of Criminal Procedure (pronounced a sentence only if the defendant is guilty of the offense complained of the beyond reasonable doubt) does not fully share the decision of the Assize Court of First Instance. "Translation: in the first trial has come to the conviction of Amanda and Raffaele not go beyond a reasonable doubt. That is, the reasonable doubt still exists that they are truly guilty.
 
According to this article Patrick is still claiming he was beaten:

http://www.slate.com/id/2303835/pagenum/all/#p2

Interesting.

Yeah, don't buy it. First of all, there's no actual quote of him saying that. Secondly, one just needs to look at her list of recommended websites for case research, which is limited to Knox advocacy sites which is Perugia Shock (and not even the real one, but Bruce Fisher's rip-off copy site) and the Amanda Knox campaign site. Big red flag...she's a plant and I don't mean the type that has leaves and you water every morning. She's probably merged what she's read about Patrick on the advocacy site with the few words she had with him. I certainly don't believe he's going to tell her he was beaten so she could go off and write it after spending so much time going on Italian TV to claim he'd never said that. What's more, she claims she looked up at the cottage window and thought "I could climb that" Yeah, right. It's a hallmark of every Knox supporter that goes to that cottage to claim they looked at the window and thought they'd be able to climb it and it would be an easy climb (Candace Dempsey did exactly the same thing). The funny thing is, it's only ever the Knox supporters that say that. Then she claims Italian reporters told her that Knox was denied food and water for many hours which they would never have said, they have attended the trial and hearings they know the truth. What was never a story in the Italian press, that was purely a story propagated (propagandised) by the US media having been constantly fed it by the Knox family and their supporters. That's an American line, not an Italian one. Nah, don't buy it. I certainly don't but her.
 
Curatolo wasn't laughed out of the court room. We discussed this elsewhere and I'm not repeating myself although you seem to love doing so. <modsnip>

Actually, Comodi has a history of making pronouncements like that during trials. It is a tactic. Tou might also want to read this (as well as the links it contains: http://perugiamurderfile.typepad.co...things-now-looking-rosy-for-amanda-knox-.html

Oh, another question about Curatolo that's been nagging me... since he saw "the couple" talking from 9:30 until they left around 11:30 to go "prank" Amanda''s roommate with real knives, why no mention of them meeting Rudy?
 
I only have time for a short comment about TMB and sensitivity right now. One finds different values in the literature for how sensitive TMB and luminol are, so do not take this two numbers literally. Suppose that luminol can detect blood in dilutions of 1 part in 100,000 and TMB can detect blood in dilutions of 1 part in 10,000. Then it would be correct but potentially misleading to say that luminol is ten times more sensitive than TMB. What it really means is that there would be a large range of dilutions over four orders of magnitude (up to 1 part in 10,000) in which both will give positive results. There would also be but a narrow window of one order of magnitude (between 10,000 and 100,000) in which luminol will be positive and TMB negative.
 
What's more, she claims she looked up at the cottage window and thought "I could climb that" Yeah, right. It's a hallmark of every Knox supporter that goes to that cottage to claim they looked at the window and thought they'd be able to climb it and it would be an easy climb (Candace Dempsey did exactly the same thing). The funny thing is, it's only ever the Knox supporters that say that.

Actually, Knox supporters who have visited the site in person as well judge Micheli have said this. I don't remember Massei saying it was impossible either.

Then she claims Italian reporters told her that Knox was denied food and water for many hours which they would never have said, they have attended the trial and hearings they know the truth.

Amanda stated during the first trial she was denied food and water until she signed the statement. I haven't heard otherwise.
 
I only have time for a short comment about TMB and sensitivity right now. One finds different values in the literature for how sensitive TMB and luminol are, so do not take this two numbers literally. Suppose that luminol can detect blood in dilutions of 1 part in 100,000 and TMB can detect blood in dilutions of 1 part in 10,000. Then it would be correct but potentially misleading to say that luminol is ten times more sensitive than TMB. What it really means is that there would be a large range of dilutions over four orders of magnitude (up to 1 part in 10,000) in which both will give positive results. There would also be but a narrow window of one order of magnitude (between 10,000 and 100,000) in which luminol will be positive and TMB negative.

Thanks very much for this authoritative explanation. Even without it, in response to the obviously spurious arguments usually made by <modsnip>, I had surmised that the window between luminol's and TMB's respective efficacies would be very narrow indeed.

I realize that probabilities and percentages are somewhat komponisto's bailiwick, but would you be willing to hazard a guess at the percentages with regard to this happening in the Kercher case?
 
I only have time for a short comment about TMB and sensitivity right now. One finds different values in the literature for how sensitive TMB and luminol are, so do not take this two numbers literally. Suppose that luminol can detect blood in dilutions of 1 part in 100,000 and TMB can detect blood in dilutions of 1 part in 10,000. Then it would be correct but potentially misleading to say that luminol is ten times more sensitive than TMB. What it really means is that there would be a large range of dilutions over four orders of magnitude (up to 1 part in 10,000) in which both will give positive results. There would also be but a narrow window of one order of magnitude (between 10,000 and 100,000) in which luminol will be positive and TMB negative.
I even read up to 1 million for Luminol. Rose posted a chart showing up to 800,000. So any traces diluted between 10,000 and 1 million times is the range we are talking about. Doesn't seem like such a small window to me.
 
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